551 réponses à ce sujet

[Lenimph]

Would she have to surrender? I thought he saw her as an equal? Didn't he say they would be an unbeatable team?

" Maybe she didn't want to have to surrender her independence to a man she didn't like." She was interested in marrying King Cailen. Sure she would have had the upper hand but she would not have had the independence she currently has.

"Seriously Gaspard did a terrible job at courting Celene if that was what he truly wanted." I agree but I don't think he was offering love.

Obviously he wasn't offering love but he was barely even offering common courtesy. Secondly he's directly linked to the deaths of her parents (ironically) so that's another reason not to like or trust him. And yes when you marry a man you're expected to make an attempt at siring children that's what made Calian so appealing. He was handsome and stupid and she could probably get away with having a relationship with Briala still but Gaspard would have found out and use it to defame her or anything else for that matter. He wanted the throne for himself and did a terrible job at masking that.

[Cobra's_back]

Obviously he wasn't offering love but he was barely even offering common courtesy. Secondly he's directly linked to the deaths of her parents (ironically) so that's another reason not to like or trust him. And yes when you marry a man you're expected to make an attempt at siring children that's what made Calian so appealing. He was handsome and stupid and she could probably get away with having a relationship with Briala still but Gaspard would have found out and use it to defame her or anything else for that matter. He wanted the throne for himself and did a terrible job at masking that.

 

They are political relationships only. 

 

Your comment: "He was handsome and stupid" True, but he did listen to his uncle. If he married Celene it looks as if he puts country over love. His uncle did imply that Cailan loved Anora. She doesn't marry a stupid guy in a vacuum. She would have to content with his concerns for Ferelden.

 

If she married Gaspard, she would have to give up her relationship with Briala. That is the price of being an Empress if she didn't want a Civil War.

[Lenimph]

They are political relationships only.

Well duh but it would be nice to be able to like and trust a political partner

Your comment: "He was handsome and stupid" True, but he did listen to his uncle. If he married Celene it looks as if he puts country over love. His uncle did imply that Cailan loved Anora. She doesn't marry a stupid guy in a vacuum. She would have to content with his concerns for Ferelden.

If she married Gaspard, she would have to give up her relationship with Briala. That is the price of being an Empress if she didn't want a Civil War.

His concerns for Ferelden would have been minor if at all an inconvenience. She shared more forward/liberal political beliefs with him then Gaspard.

[wright1978]

Yeah I think Celene's comment 'I need your wisdom and strength in defending the empire, Gaspard. I do not need a husband.' Is very revealing. Think the understandable personal desire to retain her relationship with Briala coupled with a degree of accustomisation to sole rulership is getting in the way of duty as empress. Political marriage is how kingdoms protect themselves and by ignoring that since Cailan she opened the way for gaspard's coup even before his blunt last minute marriage proposal.

[Lenimph]

I don't see how marrying Gaspard would have protected her from outside threat, it only would have protected her from his own rebellion. He is already supposed to protect his country as a nobleman and chevalier. 

[Cobra's_back]

Yeah I think Celene's comment 'I need your wisdom and strength in defending the empire, Gaspard. I do not need a husband.' Is very revealing. Think the understandable personal desire to retain her relationship with Briala coupled with a degree of accustomisation to sole rulership is getting in the way of duty as empress. Political marriage is how kingdoms protect themselves and by ignoring that since Cailan she opened the way for gaspard's coup even before his blunt last minute marriage proposal.

 

She sure did open the way for a coup. She made it just to easy for him. 

[wright1978]

I don't see how marrying Gaspard would have protected her from outside threat, it only would have protected her from his own rebellion. He is already supposed to protect his country as a nobleman and chevalier.

His rebellion didn't come from nowhere it was due to weakness. Marrying him would have united the kingdom as she herself admits and via their combined might put off any future nobles thinking it was time for rebellion. Averting civil war would have stopped the loss of soldiers and the loss of a valuable military leader in Gaspard. So it would have helped externally too.

[Cobra's_back]

Well duh but it would be nice to be able to like and trust a political partner His concerns for Ferelden would have been minor if at all an inconvenience. She shared more forward/liberal political beliefs with him then Gaspard.

 

I totally disagree with you. So many of the Orlesian nobles still hate the Ferelden people. Cailan's concerns would not have been seen as minor inconveniences to the Orlesian nobles who still wanted to attack Ferelden. She didn't have all the nobles behind her in that union.

[Lenimph]

I totally disagree with you. So many of the Orlesian nobles still hate the Ferelden people. Cailan's concerns would not have been seen as minor inconveniences to the Orlesian nobles who still wanted to attack Ferelden. She didn't have all the nobles behind her in that union.

I said to her. The nobles would have been distraught but with Ferelden (which before the blight was looking pretty meaty) backing her up any rebellion that would have came to foot probably would have been easier to contain, but she was already doing things that made the conservative Orlesian nobles upset to begin with. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Merrill-Marethari conflict was interesting when applied to Clan Virnhen. More isolationist than any other clan we've met so far, but heavily pro-Merrill in regards to lost lore. Who holds the "true Dalish spirit"? I suppose that we won't be able to know it for sure until we witness an Arlathvehn.

 

I pretty much figured the implication is that neither is "true Dalish spirit." Dalish are all different, and for better and worse different their perspectives all have the right to be called Dalish, just like everyone else in every other culture in the world.

[Mistic]

I pretty much figured the implication is that neither is "true Dalish spirit." Dalish are all different, and for better and worse different their perspectives all have the right to be called Dalish, just like everyone else in every other culture in the world.

 

True, but the other nations have a serious advantage over them in that regard: they have a visible head to choose the direction. Well, the Free Marches don't, and that's why despite having some of the wealthiest cities in Thedas they are picked on by their neighbours.

[Ianamus]

His rebellion didn't come from nowhere it was due to weakness. Marrying him would have united the kingdom as she herself admits and via their combined might put off any future nobles thinking it was time for rebellion. Averting civil war would have stopped the loss of soldiers and the loss of a valuable military leader in Gaspard. So it would have helped externally too.

 

I don't see how it would have helped though. Gaspard did not want the power, he wanted to take Orlais in a direction that Celene did not agree with. Marriage would have done nothing to change the fact that their "Ideal Orlais" were fundamentally different, and mutually exclusive. 

[Heimdall]

I did read it. She should have given them a rest. The reason not to is irrational. I already explained why. The men needed it. 

 

Your comment: "don't you for a moment consider claiming she did"

 

I don't understand why you need to make these comments. Let's say i would not welcome another reply from you. 

 

I say this fits well:

 

"think i'll politely agree to completely disagree at this point"

Is it irrational to want to spare Halamshiral any further suffering?  How is that irrational?  What did they need it for?  From her perspective?  Not knowing there's an army outside the gates, what did they so need to be rested for that could not be delayed before they were out of the city?

 

I only made that comment because you claimed Celene killed all the elves in Halamshiral.  That is most emphatically not the case.  So it seems to me you desire to villify Celene.

[Heimdall]

Celene screwed up by making it a personal affair and not marrying gapsard , gaspard screwed up by being too impatient and openly attacking her multiple times starting a civil war which in turn will give the elves an even bigger chance to cause chaos which in turn will give any outsiders looking for an opportunity to possibly invade....  Both to me are ill fit to be rulers, and i would rather have the option of a 3rd party ruling in the game instead of an orzamar type thing...

I agree on all counts except that Celene is an unfit ruler.  She made a huge mistake in not marrying Gaspard, but I don't consider that one decision enough to invalidate decades of peaceful rule, improvements to the lot of elves, and improved relations with Orlais' neighbors (Save Nevarra)

[leaguer of one]

I agree on all counts except that Celene is an unfit ruler.  She made a huge mistake in not marrying Gaspard, but I don't consider that one decision enough to invalidate decades of peaceful rule, improvements to the lot of elves, and improved relations with Orlais' neighbors (Save Nevarra)

I don't see why she should marry a Guy who wants to take her country in a direction a completely different direction she wanted it to go.

[Augustei]

Indeed, Marrying Gaspard would have been a huge mistake...Unless she planned to quickly become a widow.
He is ambitious and thinks himself capable of ruling in his own right, and both completely disagree on the direction the country should take. Marrying Gaspard would have done nothing but cause infighting as they fought for the throne....So it would have changed nothing except to confer legitimacy on Gaspard.

[ecarden]

It's a little interesting that the first reason Celene gives for refusing to marry Gaspard is that his wife, not he, but his wife, arranged the death of her mother. Interesting parallels all over the place.

 

On a different note, even if I bought the argument that she had no choice (which I don't "Gaspard has no idea you are still in the game. He thinks the throne is his. He'd have no reason to send assassins after you now."--Briala--"I thought you were out of the Game once your parents were dead. So did Duke Bastien, and so did Duke Germain."--Gaspard) that might be an argument for why she is not evil, but not an argument for why she should be forgiven, though admittedly, such things aren't particularly susceptible to logical argument. Consider how Nathaniel Howe reacted, despite all the evidence in the world that his father was an evil ****** who was killed in self defense (I think he always strikes first, but I may be misremembering how it goes if you're a human noble). It's no more defensible than Michel's murder of a random elf because he really wants to be a Chevalier. 

 

Being in a bad situation is not an excuse for murdering innocents. I think this is most obvious if you change the events slightly. If instead of simply having her servants killed, she'd had them tortured, then killed, would anyone still be defending that? I don't think most folks would. Even though, it would probably have been more effective. A more brutal crime, demonstrating the cruelty of her enemies, how thoroughly Florian has lost control and how brave she is for pressing on with her claims and she inspired such loyalty in her servants that they died to the last, never having betrayed her, despite being put to the question.

 

But we all, generally, accept torture as always wrong, which isn't true with killing someone, at least within the world of Thedas.

 

I'll also point out that as far as we know, none of the arguments Briala makes for specific actions even mention elves. When she argues for a different tax arrangement, she points out that what's happening is that the wealthier merchants are trying to use the tax system to drive out the poorer competition, some of that poorer competition is elves. With the revolt, the goal was to end it without bloodshed, partly to avoid bloodshed, partly to avoid exactly what ended up happening, that bloodshed sparking a broader revolt.

 

--Though as a side note, it'll probably never happen, but in my head canon, if the Warden does come back, my city elf warden who romanced Leliana is not going to be terribly pleased with the whole go 'take care of those city elves' [paraphrase, not quote] then we'll talk, thing.

 

ETA: And Celene gives a reason for why she marches to the Winter Palace and doesn't rest her men "Her men would receive better treatment than Halamshiral could offer...and Halamshiral could begin burying its dead." I'm not sure where the argument is coming from that she was trying to prevent looting.

[Heimdall]

I don't see why she should marry a Guy who wants to take her country in a direction a completely different direction she wanted it to go.

Averting civil war mostly

[Zered]

I don't see why she should marry a Guy who wants to take her country in a direction a completely different direction she wanted it to go.

Yeah because Orlais is going now in the right direction 

[Alexius]

Yeah because Orlais is going now in the right direction 

 

I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong, only a choice between the lesser of two evils - or more capable, I don't know.

[Sylvianus]

Refusing the marriage meant civil war. It was obvious. She knew Gaspard would act if she did so. The plight of the empire was at stake, so the " we could disagree " is really minor compared to that point if Celene cares so much about her country and its people. And she knew it was the worst solution.. I blame more Celene for doing nothing for weeks, waiting, while she knew the situation got bad. How about you kill discretely the dangerous man ? ( the crows for example ) You plotted against an emperor, why not Gaspard ? Why do you let him threat your existence and your throne ? The man is loved by many people and able to unite many nobles and soldiers behind him.This is what I don't really understand. Gaspard used his bard against Ser Michel and not even something for revenge.

 

 

I would have more respected Celene's decision if knowning that she would never marry Gaspard and he would make her pay for that, she'd have at least the balls to try to kill him off. She never was pro-active. Instead,she waited and wondered what Gaspard would do next time.

 

Fo me, Celene only refused because of human weaknesses. There's no state reasons. There's no good political reasons. 

[Augustei]

I agree she certainly should have assassinated him..Wish more people were willing to go the assassination route in thedas because it'd solve alot of problems, Still wishing my Hawke would have assassinated Meredith, and Loghain assinated Cailen for example.

She seems to have rejected his proposal for personal reasons to do with Briala, as well as her parents murders certainly, but saying there is no state or political reasons for rejecting the marriage is nonsense. If she accepted the proposal and married Gaspard (The guy who she completely disagrees with on the direction the Empire should take) then all she would be doing is confering Legitimacy on his cause and given him better footing for the throne.. Without it when he raises his banners against her he is a rebel and attempted Usurper.. If she married him and the marriage breaks down (which is most certainly would have) then he is the Emperor of Orlais who has legal and legitimate cacus belli for the throne which would result in him having a much easier time drawing allies to his cause.

If Celene married Gaspard all she is doing is empowering her enemy

[Vapaa]

I agree she certainly should have assassinated him..

She didn’t because it would ignite the civil war, it’s stated as such in the book.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

She didn’t because it would ignite the civil war, it’s stated as such in the book.

And if she did that, she would be the one viewed negatively rather than Gaspard.

[Vapaa]

Exatcly, and how you look to others is everything in the Game.