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[Sylvianus]

Exatcly, and how you look to others is everything in the Game.

 

No one would know exactly it was her if she suceeded. Just a few rumors. They would have seen her as more strong than ever.

 

She didn’t because it would ignite the civil war, it’s stated as such in the book.

 

A statement not clear without even an explanation and hard to believe. If the man is dead, everyone will be behind her again. Several times she states that she can win the nobles, that means that they are not really strongly behind anyone. Just interested at best. 

 

And if she did that, she would be the one viewed negatively rather than Gaspard.

 

Celene had no choices. She rejected the last soluton that could avoid the fight and Gaspard would act. She needed to kill him before he could gather any force or throw any attack beginning the rebellion. There was nothing worse than waiting and doing nothing. Gaspard was only the real man able to threat her that much, without him, there would be no one that would try something for a while. She needed time to take control of the situation. All the nobles would be scared by her victory and not at all united. The might of the empire was with Celene without Gaspard.

 

Yes, Celene would have been viewed negatively ? And ? That would have done nothing concretely.Just something scandalous. Maybe a " bad " reputation. First killing Gaspard discretely, people could only suspect her and especially in Orlais, that's enough, and second being viewed negatively is nothing concretely compared to what we are talking about. It was not about elves here. She would have no opponents anymore, for a while at least.

 

This reminds me of Henri III. Gaspard was like the Duc de Guise ( except this one wasn't a soldier )

 

A threat for the king, and a threat for the unity of the kindgom of France. He was loved by the ultracatholics, by parisians, he was the true king for them. Henri III had no other choices but killing him discretely, otherwise it meant civil war. Yes, people suspected him, henri III was more hated after that but he succeeded, he saved the kindgom and his throne from another fight. 

[Vapaa]

 

No one would know exactly it was her if she suceeded. Just a few rumors. They would have seen her as more strong than ever.

 

No, Gaspard's nobles didn't trust Celene to deal with the mage problem, her killing Gaspard would do nothing on that matter and would just alienate Gaspard's faction.

 

A statement not clear without even an explanation and hard to believe. If the man is dead, everyone will be behind her again. Several times she states that she can win the nobles, that means that they are not really strongly behind anyone. Just interested at best.

 

Just because she states that, doesn't mean she will, she lost Remarche when she thought he was on her side.

[Former_Fiend]

You know what I find surprising? As I continue reading through The Masked Empire, I find that the character I'm disliking the most isn't Celene, or Gaspard, or Briala. It's Michel. 

 

Forget killing the others. I want to put a sword through this cocky prat.

[Vapaa]

Really ? by the end I didn't want to kill any of them....except Remarche and the Montsimmard daughter.

 

Spoiler

Who got what they deserved

[Former_Fiend]

I'm only about two thirds of the way through, myself, so who knows.

 

My dislike of Michel isn't primarily on a moral ground, though I have taken issue with some of his actions. I'm just finding him to be nigh-insufferable. 

 

Also I've always thought of the chevaliers as something of an overblown joke. Capable warriors, but not nearly so talented as they think they are. This book seems to be going with the interpretation that they're every bit as good as they think they are, and then some, and Michel is the primary means of demonstrating that. 

 

So I have the desire to kill him, to slaughter the chevaliers in general, to put them in their place near the bottom of the pecking order.

[Vapaa]

I liked that chevaliers are really the elite order they are supposed to be.

[Former_Fiend]

Well, I don't, but then, I don't like anything about Orlais.

[Oasis_JS]

I liked that chevaliers are really the elite order they are supposed to be

 

 

yeah I thought the whole honor system they had was pretty neat.and how they train them .    It's sad how they have an unfortunate  system for the final day of recruits ...hmm more of a very ugly    system..  going after the poor  and the city Elves

[Mistic]

Also I've always thought of the chevaliers as something of an overblown joke. Capable warriors, but not nearly so talented as they think they are. This book seems to be going with the interpretation that they're every bit as good as they think they are, and then some, and Michel is the primary means of demonstrating that. 

 

So I have the desire to kill him, to slaughter the chevaliers in general, to put them in their place near the bottom of the pecking order.

 

But it seems it's canon that the chevaliers are as good as they say. That you don't like it is not Michel's fault.

 

I blame Michel for Imshael, though. And Celene and Briala. Ok, the Dalish weren't very nice, but they were right on the money about them: what do the intruders think the moment a powerful demon we have trapped promise them a way to enter a magical portal network? That a demon like that is obviously dangerous, can't be trusted and that the defenses we've built around it are there for a reason? No! They think that they can outsmart it and that messing with the magic circle is a good idea.

 

The Dalish were stupid to summon that demon, but Michel and company were even more stupid. At least Michel acknowledged his failure in the end and is looking for Imshael.

[Vapaa]

yeah I thought the whole honor system they had was pretty neat.and how they train them .    It's sad how they have an unfortunate  system for the final day of recruits ...hmm more of a very ugly    system..  going after the poor  and the city Elves

The problem is the segragating society of Orlais, that uses them to do its dirty work (well it’s just an other day in Thedas, really)

[Augustei]

She didn’t because it would ignite the civil war, it’s stated as such in the book.

I'm not saying she should take responsibility of the assassination and tell everyone, make it look like an accident.
And please tell me how silencing the voice of dissent against the crown would cause a civil war? Who will they unite behind if Gaspard is dead? Who else is there of Royal blood that shares their views that they can place on the throne? Nobody we know of so far.
Gaspard got Remache with the promise of marrying his daughter and making him A Grand Duke, so he is unlikely to continue to oppose Celene since he has nothing to gain from it.. That only leaves Montsimmard
 

[I Like Cats And]

Gaspard>Celene. I hope siding with one of them is an option in DA:I. Gaspard is the emperor Orlais needs ;_; ...or I just really want to kill Celene

[Vapaa]

I'm not saying she should take responsibility of the assassination and tell everyone, make it look like an accident.

"Accident" is orlesian for "assumed murder".
Besides, orlesian nobles don't need proof, Celene wasn't forced to march on Halamshiral because someone caught her on the bed with Briala; the mere insinuation of it by a parody was enough to greatly weaken her, and Gaspard didn't even know the affair really existed.

And please tell me how silencing the voice of dissent against the crown would cause a civil war? Who will they unite behind if Gaspard is dead? Who else is there of Royal blood that shares their views that they can place on the throne? Nobody we know of so far.

Because the unrest didn't come from nowhere; the Mage/Templar cold war (before **** hit the fan) already weakened the throne, and some nobles saw in Gaspard the firm hand for the situation, where Celene was seen as either uncaring or incapable. Silencing Gaspard would not resolve the mage problem and would just alienate Gaspard's nobles who would thought that Celene didn't take the problem seriously by disposing of what they think is the solution.

As Felassen says, causes are always important, and the cause is not just lack of confidence in Celene's rule, but the Chantry crisis that takes unprecedented propostions.

Besides, in Asunder the rebellion extended to the Heartlands, showing that it isn't just Montsimmard and Lydes (Remarche) that doubt the Empress.

Gaspard>Celene. I hope siding with one of them is an option in DA:I. Gaspard is the emperor Orlais needs ;_;

Gaspard himself doesn't seem to agree with you

[Tranter88]

My main problem with Michel, is that after everything had gone to ****. Spending a few days alone with Celene where she was totally dependant on him for her continued existance is that he didn't just tell her the truth. What would she do, storm of in huff that he wasn't a noble. He was up to that put nothing but a loyal guardian, regardless of his status and she had every faith in him.

 

Yes he would of still owed Briala a favour as his honour would dictate, but he could of still killed Gaspard knowing that full disclosure wouldn't hurt him that much and Briala obvious blackmail wouldn't of worked.

 

He was just stupid at the end of the day. I would imagine we will run into him in a side quest to deal with Imshael. I can put this out to him then...probably with a hammer.

[Heimdall]

I'm only about two thirds of the way through, myself, so who knows.

 

My dislike of Michel isn't primarily on a moral ground, though I have taken issue with some of his actions. I'm just finding him to be nigh-insufferable. 

 

Also I've always thought of the chevaliers as something of an overblown joke. Capable warriors, but not nearly so talented as they think they are. This book seems to be going with the interpretation that they're every bit as good as they think they are, and then some, and Michel is the primary means of demonstrating that. 

 

So I have the desire to kill him, to slaughter the chevaliers in general, to put them in their place near the bottom of the pecking order.

Keep in mind, Michel was handpicked as the champion of the Empress of Orlais.  Presumably, his skills are beyond that of an average Chevalier.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I liked that chevaliers are really the elite order they are supposed to be.

The Chevaliers are the only order I want to see killed down to the last member. 

[Vapaa]

The Chevaliers are the only order I want to see killed down to the last member.

I’d rather do that to Tevinter magisters.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I’d rather do that to Tevinter magisters.

We know everyone in the Chevaliers are murderers, while we don't know that of Magisters. Heck, even not all of the Darkspawn are murderers.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Michel (and to a lesser extend Gaspard) does appear to be proof that Chevaliers are indeed among the most elite warriors of Thedas, but none of the other Chevaliers seem to be as proficient as him. Initally I was very impressed with him and liked him. As time went on though, I found his continued one sided trouncing of every opponent who ever crossed his path to be a little bit tiresome (in his last couple fights I found myself rooting for his opponents) but it wasn't until Gaspard showed up with a half dozen Chevaliers to confront Celene's party that I realized it wasn't Chevalier training that made Michel so impressive. All Gaspard's Chevaliers died like mooks: except Gaspard himself and it hit me, Michel easily kills most of his enemies because he's the player character.

[Vapaa]

We know everyone in the Chevaliers are murderers, while we don't know that of Magisters. Heck, even not all of the Darkspawn are murderers.

They are (elite) soldiers, all soldiers are murderers.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

They are (elite) soldiers, all soldiers are murderers.

No, killing in self defense or defense of others is not considered murder. Killing City Elves for an initiation is, however.

[Vapaa]

Point taken

[Sylvianus]

 

No, Gaspard's nobles didn't trust Celene to deal with the mage problem, her killing Gaspard would do nothing on that matter and would just alienate Gaspard's faction.

 

It may alienate them but they would be certainly confused. They would have understood that Celene shouldn't be taken lightly with this lesson. Celene wanted to make a show, no matter how it was unfair for the elves to make understand to everyone and especially nobles she had the grip and the steel and they should have no interest in underestimating her. It would have been the same in my opinion.

 

Also again there would be nothing concrete with the head of the movement cut off that united them. There would be no open rebellion; First because there would be no evidences it was her, only suspicions, ( It's orlais, it's the game, and the game is accepted by everyone, you can kill and escape justice if you do a good job. The emperor was killed himself and  nobody gave a ****. And yet killing a king or an emperor should be considered like the most horrible thing to do ) Second, being unpopular doesn't immediately lead to war. Celene was unpopular for years, considered weak for at least the last years. Only Gaspard wasted everything. Her reputation would have been maybe hurt with rumors of her killing the man, but I don't see how being viewed negatively would make her fall suddenly, immediately. Besides, Gaspard was the only Grand Duke. Who would be the new chief that could lead his faction and rule the country, replacing Celene ? I doubt they would even agree on any name. 

 

They are noble as well and they may be not as bold as Gaspard. What Briala herself recognized as a quality, she who considered him as a vulgar and stupid lout. Who says that they would avoid the Game like Gaspard did, and  choose the fight on open battlefield ?

 

Just because she states that, doesn't mean she will, she lost Remarche when she thought he was on her side.

 

Well, in the book the author keep saying that she's a master in the game. She could promise, she could manipulate, she could divide them. The example of Remarche only show that nobles can change easily their mind if they think it's worth it. In this area, I certainly trust Celene. Celene lost Rematche, because like Rematche said, she had been clear that she didn't want him while Gaspard truly showed his interest. 

 

Gaspard's faction woul still not trust her, they would still not like her, but not trusting someone is totally different from taking immediate and direct action against the empress, against the might of the empire into her hands, to take risks with his family, his mens, to take risk  with his confortable life. Gaspard himself used tactis with Celene, because it was the only solution against her. He knew that he needed to set an ambush and needed to take her by surprise to win over her and quickly as well..He knew that if he didn't capture her, he was lost, and all his relatives too. Acting openly against the empress is certainly not something easy to do. 

 

"Accident" is orlesian for "assumed murder".
Besides, orlesian nobles don't need proof, Celene wasn't forced to march on Halamshiral because someone caught her on the bed with Briala; the mere insinuation of it by a parody was enough to greatly weaken her, and Gaspard didn't even know the affair really existed.

 

Because the unrest didn't come from nowhere; the Mage/Templar cold war (before **** hit the fan) already weakened the throne, and some nobles saw in Gaspard the firm hand for the situation, where Celene was seen as either uncaring or incapable. Silencing Gaspard would not resolve the mage problem and would just alienate Gaspard's nobles who would thought that Celene didn't take the problem seriously by disposing of what they think is the solution.

 

 

 

Okay. But Gaspard was alive at that time. Of course she was threatened. many nobles then would fall on his side. Gaspard for years was the one that pointed out her weakness. Gaspard had already managed to convince a lot of people. Gaspard was the firm hand they could have instead of her, Gaspard was considered as an alternative, everything leads to him again. That's why she could not afford to be that weak at this point. Gaspard, dead, quite frankly, I don't know. The flexibility is narrow but I would think it would still be possible to do something.  With Gaspard alive and plotting against her for the throne and the matter of the elves that killed her, there she could NOT allow to lose on this field or she was probably done. 

 

I'm not saying that suddenly everything would be alright and people would stop to see her as weak ( with the templar / mage war going on, etc ), just that she was in an impasse, and that the only solution - since they were done - to avoid the civil war was to act, with a better outcome in my opinion.

 

After, if you disagree, well, let's agree to disagree then. To me, nothing is showing me how killing discretely Gaspard would make her fall or would begin another civil war. 

[Former_Fiend]

But it seems it's canon that the chevaliers are as good as they say. That you don't like it is not Michel's fault.

 

I blame Michel for Imshael, though. And Celene and Briala. Ok, the Dalish weren't very nice, but they were right on the money about them: what do the intruders think the moment a powerful demon we have trapped promise them a way to enter a magical portal network? That a demon like that is obviously dangerous, can't be trusted and that the defenses we've built around it are there for a reason? No! They think that they can outsmart it and that messing with the magic circle is a good idea.

 

The Dalish were stupid to summon that demon, but Michel and company were even more stupid. At least Michel acknowledged his failure in the end and is looking for Imshael.

 

Well, no, it's not his fault. I don't like that the writers made it canon that they're that good. But they made Michel the demonstration of that, so he becomes the in-universe focal point for my dislike on the matter. I can't do anything about them making it canon, but I can kill him to spite them. Never said it was a logical dislike, just an instinctual one.

 

And, likewise, Imshael was primarily his fault. That was a big problem I had with team Celene in general; they passed the buck at every opportunity. Gaspard spread a nasty rumor? Celene kills thousands of people. Gaspard's fault! 

[Former_Fiend]

They are (elite) soldiers, all soldiers are murderers.

 

I find that offensive.