551 réponses à ce sujet

[Vapaa]

I find that offensive.

Oversimplification is always offensive.

[Sylvianus]

I agree she certainly should have assassinated him..Wish more people were willing to go the assassination route in thedas because it'd solve alot of problems, Still wishing my Hawke would have assassinated Meredith, and Loghain assinated Cailen for example.

She seems to have rejected his proposal for personal reasons to do with Briala, as well as her parents murders certainly, but saying there is no state or political reasons for rejecting the marriage is nonsense. If she accepted the proposal and married Gaspard (The guy who she completely disagrees with on the direction the Empire should take) then all she would be doing is confering Legitimacy on his cause and given him better footing for the throne.. Without it when he raises his banners against her he is a rebel and attempted Usurper.. If she married him and the marriage breaks down (which is most certainly would have) then he is the Emperor of Orlais who has legal and legitimate cacus belli for the throne which would result in him having a much easier time drawing allies to his cause.

If Celene married Gaspard all she is doing is empowering her enemy

 

Meh. I'm re-reading the pages again, and I'm definitely not seeing it. Not even Celene raised this point...

 

" , I do not need a husband,." " Your wife killed my mother. " Here, the main arguments I've read ... ( no need to mention Briala I guess ? )

 

The woman just can't stand him and won't and I do admit that Gaspard does a bad job to seduce her. It's all about feelings.

 

You're only talking about her throne and her position... I'm talking about the plight of the empire that doesn't really matter there... 

 

If she married Gaspard, Gaspard wouldn't be anymore an enemy to begin with and the country would be united. He would be her husband with who she could disagree over some strong points. But He is a man of honor and restricted to his chevalier status. He takes his duty seriously for Orlais. 

 

How about, before saying immediately NO f*ck off, you could discuss the matter with the guy ? Discussing is not agreeing right ? Trying to see what can be negociated, trying to know what compromises they could agree on ? Trying to see if his position could be eased ? Trying to see if a future together could be possible ? What promises he could do if she accept ? Seriously,I read the discussion and was like, is this really a discussion between an Empress and a grand Duke ?   She didn't even try. That didn't particurlarly strike me as smart.

 

Both Celene and Gaspard are concerned for Orlais, need a strong empire, ( and the marriage would bring all of Orlais together as Celene thinks herself ). Gaspard only said that he didn't care about banquets, balls, universities. Nothing could stop Celene to continue to develop those things with him as his husband, to make progressive reform. Gaspard could work to strenghten the might of the empire, could bring respect to Orlais since he is well known. The real issues would be the matter of templar / mage war but nothing prevents them to work together on different matters. As both emperor and empress, they 'd have to work together, not necessarily as enemies. 

 

Also how Gaspard could become the legetimate Emperor if he breaks down with Celene ? Nothing says that a man is more legetimate than a woman in orlais as a ruler of the Empire. ( Or  I  didn't read it ) And I very doubt that Gaspard would begin a civil war in his own country as an Emperor against another Empress, against his wife, that the other half of the country could support, that doesn't seem like him at all, he cares a lot about Orlais and its unity, it seems more something you imagined to me. 

[Vapaa]

 

It may alienate them but they would be certainly confused. They would have understood that Celene shouldn't be taken lightly with this lesson. Celene wanted to make a show, no matter how it was unfair for the elves to make understand to everyone and especially nobles she had the grip and the steel and they should have no interest in underestimating her. It would have been the same in my opinion.

 

 

Again, you are forgetting that the nobles conspire against her because of her apparent inability to deal with the Chantry crisis, killing Gaspard would do nothing about that.

 

 

Well, in the book the author keep saying that she's a master in the game. She could promise, she could manipulate, she could divide them. The example of Remarche only show that nobles can change easily their mind if they think it's worth it. In this area, I certainly trust Celene. Celene lost Rematche, because like Rematche said, she had been clear that she didn't want him while Gaspard truly showed his interest.

 

Yet she still got cornered in marching on Halamshiral, Celene is certainly the best player of the game, but she still have goals she doesn't want to compromise.

 

 

Gaspard spread a nasty rumor? Celene kills thousands of people. Gaspard's fault! 

 

Gaspard cornered her with the play, he knew full well she would be forced to march on Halamashiral, else he wouldn't be there to ambush her.

 

Celene is my favourite character in the book, now I know what it feels to like Loghain

[Wolfen09]

meh, michel is one of those characters that has a huge fatal annoying flaw...  hes mostly likeable, but when his character flaws show it makes it hard to like him...  imshael was his fault, but i dont blame him for that, chevaliers arent trained to deal with demons, and he was doing what he thought was best for the empress to survive...  course i would have left her to the mercy of the sylvans, but im more of the impish rogue type than the honor bound warrior

[Former_Fiend]

Eh, my favorite character in the book was Imshael. Horrible individual, but he didn't pretend to be anything else. And much more pleasant to talk to.

[DumSheeps]

SPOLERS FROM THE BOOK:

Spoiler

Anyone else think, the big bad in Inquisition will be this mysterious entity at the end of the book.

[Wolfen09]

Eh, my favorite character in the book was Imshael. Horrible individual, but he didn't pretend to be anything else. And much more pleasant to talk to.

 

which is strange for a demon, i mean spirit in the first place....  cause i hated justice all throughout awakening.... then again i never really cared for the term absolute justice to begin with, let alone a spirit signifying it...

[Former_Fiend]

I loved Justice in Awakening. He had the soul of a poet.

 

Or would have, if he had a soul.

[AppealToReason]

So I really didn't like Gaspard much all book long because he was a knob, but the more I got into it and at the end I came around on him.

 

I also came back around on Celene after liking her a bit, then finding her boring, but the ending brought me back around. I liked how she seemed to become a ruthless ruler again, or at least realized that is the way things are to be done.

 

Michel was hit and miss. Some parts, I enjoyed him other parts, like as the duel ended and even the very end I wasn't too high on him.

 

Briala is blargh for me. I don't know what it is about revolutionaries but they usually bother me. Hope I can crush her under my boot in DAI.

 

Very disappointed that Felassan bit the dust. I think I liked him the most out of anyone. A mage who wasn't a pouty-puss, seemed like a bro. I assume that Imshael killed him at the end. Still sorting through that. For some reason i feel that it was Fen'harel.

 

I enjoyed Imshael's as a demon/spirit, but not as much as a possessor.

 

I do have to say though that I enjoyed this book the most. Probably because it was a change from the Gaider Checklist. I had a tougher time putting this book down than any of the other 3, and all but one of the comics (1 and 3 I thought were weaker than #2).

[Wolfen09]

the hell's the gaider check list?

[CrazyRah]

So I really didn't like Gaspard much all book long because he was a knob, but the more I got into it and at the end I came around on him.

 

I also came back around on Celene after liking her a bit, then finding her boring, but the ending brought me back around. I liked how she seemed to become a ruthless ruler again, or at least realized that is the way things are to be done.

 

Michel was hit and miss. Some parts, I enjoyed him other parts, like as the duel ended and even the very end I wasn't too high on him.

 

Briala is blargh for me. I don't know what it is about revolutionaries but they usually bother me. Hope I can crush her under my boot in DAI.

 

Very disappointed that Felassan bit the dust. I think I liked him the most out of anyone. A mage who wasn't a pouty-puss, seemed like a bro. I assume that Imshael killed him at the end. Still sorting through that. For some reason i feel that it was Fen'harel.

 

I enjoyed Imshael's as a demon/spirit, but not as much as a possessor.

 

I do have to say though that I enjoyed this book the most. Probably because it was a change from the Gaider Checklist. I had a tougher time putting this book down than any of the other 3, and all but one of the comics (1 and 3 I thought were weaker than #2).

 

This is pretty much how i felt aswell, especially about Celene and Briala. Will also always have a special place for Felassan 

[AppealToReason]

the hell's the gaider check list?

 

I read all three of Gaider's books back to back and felt that by Asunder I knew what events would happen based on the twists/turns and what had/had yet to happen based off the other books. 

And I was finding myself right. 

 

Also I felt Gaider's characters were more tropey.

[AppealToReason]

This is pretty much how i felt aswell, especially about Celene and Briala. Will also always have a special place for Felassan 

 

Has he been the only mage in the entire universe who isn't/didn't become a huge pouty puss because wah magic?

 

I feel like he was.

[Little Princess Peach]

As the Inquisitor, I'll have nothing but indifference in regards to Briala and Celene getting back together. My focus will be on closing the rifts in the Veil and making Orlais a better place then when I found it. Between the three factions (Celene's, Gaspard's, and Briala's elves) I lean towards the city elves. They are the true victims of the civil war and gain to lose the most.

 

 

But if you think about it the Cit Elves have nothing in the first place, and the Dalish Elves even less so.

[Sylvianus]

1- Again, you are forgetting that the nobles conspire against her because of her apparent inability to deal with the Chantry crisis, killing Gaspard would do nothing about that.

 

2 - Yet she still got cornered in marching on Halamshiral.

 

3 - Celene is certainly the best player of the game, but she still have goals she doesn't want to compromise.

 

4 - Celene is my favourite character in the book, now I know what it feels to like Loghain

 

1 -  They do not conspire, they complain, they are not happy, they whisper. Only Gaspard and his faction really conspire. The remainder is nervous, is anxious, expect results, balance between the two protagonists, are attentive and spectators. Most of them worry more for the country than they despise Celene who does seem to lack strenght according to them. Being sincerely angry, sighting against her weakness doesn't mean much, doesn't really mean what you think. They do not plot against her, they do not consider and take mesures to act against her, or at least we learned absolutely nothing about something like that into the book. It is not at all comparable and it is not at all the same thing. Conspiring means plotting and taking concrete actions against the power that only Gaspard, a few nobles like Montsimard and Rematche dare to do. 

 

I do not forget anything and yes, Celene has yet to convince a lot of people, especially with the templar / mage war. I was just saying Gaspard disretely silented, all would have been better for Celene, the country and its people, civil war which was inevitable after the hunt avoided. The pressure would have dropped for a while with Gaspard's faction confused, stopped with the head of the movement dead. I gave the explanations. Also Celene gave time limit to the divine's mission anyways, she was willing to act to appease most of the nobles. She only waited because, Justinia had her plans. 

 

2 - Because she truly underestimated Gaspard, because she is not so smart at this game as she believed, without Briala to help. Yes, I agree. She was even beaten by Gaspard who used rumors, a theather, her own university to get her cornered. Also Celene mocked the Chevaliers with a dual feathers, a consequence of her plan to win over Gaspard at the party with the ambassador Teagan. There, she had lost many points too.  

 

3 - I'm not following you here. What do you mean ? What Celene's uncompromising goals are you talking about ? What prevents Celene try to calm this faction, to win them, to manipulate them ? The unity of the empire is also a concern for her. Besides, she just has to show strength mostly to please. She does not need necessarily to compromise herself to influence nobles, she'd handle them so they can act as she wishes They just need that she shows strength in the matters of the country, they need to see that she is doing something and is heavily involved. And she was ready to fully satisfy them on this point. Just re-read the conversation with Leliana and her thoughts about this matter.

 

Didn't she she gave a time limit for the Divine to resolve the matter because otherwise she would be forced to act to satisfy the nobles ? Here, that pretty means she compromises her goals. She didn't want at all to act that way. Celene does not want to throw the might of his empire upon itself and yet she considered doing so without hesitation to save her power. 

 

Didn't she tried to win Rematche again after losing him at the theater when she saw how the situation got bad ? She started to offer a new deal to Rematche ( sincerely or not isn't the point ) , was trying again with him while actually that wasn't what she wanted, it's Rematche that rejected her deal. Didn't she was ready to compromise her goals here too ? 

 

Also, I'm sorry, but Halamshiral only showed that Celene isn't someone that is determined and courageous on her goals, against the odds, defying everyone, without compromises. This isn't her best quality. Otherwise she would have let Briala resolve the matter despite the rumors, as she truly wanted. She knew that the solution of Briala was the good thing to do. And yet, she killed thousand of elves because she couldn't resist to a few rumors and the possibility that it could become bad for her because of that. 

 

4 - I love Loghain.   And I always regret praticing the King's justice to him every single time I play a new playthrough. 

[Cobra's_back]

 

1 -  They do not conspire, they complain, they are not happy, they whisper. Only Gaspard and his faction really conspire. The remainder is nervous, is anxious, expect results, balance between the two protagonists, are attentive and spectators. Most of them worry more for the country than they despise Celene who does seem to lack strenght according to them. Being sincerely angry, sighting against her weakness doesn't mean much, doesn't really mean what you think. They do not plot against her, they do not consider and take mesures to act against her, or at least we learned absolutely nothing about something like that into the book. It is not at all comparable and it is not at all the same thing. Conspiring means plotting and taking concrete actions against the power that only Gaspard, a few nobles like Montsimard and Rematche dare to do. 

 

I do not forget anything and yes, Celene has yet to convince a lot of people, especially with the templar / mage war. I was just saying Gaspard disretely silented, all would have been better for Celene, the country and its people, civil war which was inevitable after the hunt avoided. The pressure would have dropped for a while with Gaspard's faction confused, stopped with the head of the movement dead. I gave the explanations. Also Celene gave time limit to the divine's mission anyways, she was willing to act to appease most of the nobles. She only waited because, Justinia had her plans. 

 

2 - Because she truly underestimated Gaspard, because she is not so smart at this game as she believed, without Briala to help. Yes, I agree. She was even beaten by Gaspard who used rumors, a theather, her own university to get her cornered. Also Celene mocked the Chevaliers with a dual feathers, a consequence of her plan to win over Gaspard at the party with the ambassador Teagan. There, she had lost many points too.  

 

3 - I'm not following you here. What do you mean ? What Celene's uncompromising goals are you talking about ? What prevents Celene try to calm this faction, to win them, to manipulate them ? The unity of the empire is also a concern for her. Besides, she just has to show strength mostly to please. She does not need necessarily to compromise herself to influence nobles, she'd handle them so they can act as she wishes They just need that she shows strength in the matters of the country, they need to see that she is doing something and is heavily involved. And she was ready to fully satisfy them on this point. Just re-read the conversation with Leliana and her thoughts about this matter.

 

Didn't she she gave a time limit for the Divine to resolve the matter because otherwise she would be forced to act to satisfy the nobles ? Here, that pretty means she compromises her goals. She didn't want at all to act that way. Celene does not want to throw the might of his empire upon itself and yet she considered doing so without hesitation to save her power. 

 

Didn't she tried to win Rematche again after losing him at the theater when she saw how the situation got bad ? She started to offer a new deal to Rematche ( sincerely or not isn't the point ) , was trying again with him while actually that wasn't what she wanted, it's Rematche that rejected her deal. Didn't she was ready to compromise her goals here too ? 

 

Also, I'm sorry, but Halamshiral only showed that Celene isn't someone that is determined and courageous on her goals, against the odds, defying everyone, without compromises. This isn't her best quality. Otherwise she would have let Briala resolve the matter despite the rumors, as she truly wanted. She knew that the solution of Briala was the good thing to do. And yet, she killed thousand of elves because she couldn't resist to a few rumors and the possibility that it could become bad for her because of that. 

 

4 - I love Loghain.   And I always regret praticing the King's justice to him every single time I play a new playthrough. 

 

 

Excellent post. I loved reading it. I also thought she should have married Gaspard or murdered him. I didn't see her as a strong Empress. I thought it was a poor move on her part to throw her key player under the bus (Briala intelligence network). In a chess game it surly didn't look like she knew how to win. 

 

EDIT: If she was anything like Loghain, Gaspard would have been dead or poisoned at least. Loghain didn't shy away from playing hardball.

[Vapaa]

 

1 -  They do not conspire, they complain, they are not happy, they whisper. Only Gaspard and his faction really conspire. The remainder is nervous, is anxious, expect results, balance between the two protagonists, are attentive and spectators. Most of them worry more for the country than they despise Celene who does seem to lack strenght according to them. Being sincerely angry, sighting against her weakness doesn't mean much, doesn't really mean what you think. They do not plot against her, they do not consider and take mesures to act against her, or at least we learned absolutely nothing about something like that into the book. It is not at all comparable and it is not at all the same thing. Conspiring means plotting and taking concrete actions against the power that only Gaspard, a few nobles like Montsimard and Rematche dare to do. 

 

I do not forget anything and yes, Celene has yet to convince a lot of people, especially with the templar / mage war. I was just saying Gaspard disretely silented, all would have been better for Celene, the country and its people, civil war which was inevitable after the hunt avoided. The pressure would have dropped for a while with Gaspard's faction confused, stopped with the head of the movement dead. I gave the explanations. Also Celene gave time limit to the divine's mission anyways, she was willing to act to appease most of the nobles. She only waited because, Justinia had her plans. 

 

Every noble consipre for tokens of power, it's the Nature of the Grand Game. Only Gaspard targets the throne because his nobles belives he can solve the problems and Celene can't.

 

Gaspard can't be "discretly silenced", a "hunt incident" is just a byword for an assassination, and the nobles would immediatly put two and two togheter...besides how would Celene would kill Gaspard, he's one of the best Chevaliers. And again Gaspard's faction would not be stopped because THE SOURCE PROBLEM WOULDN'T BE DELT WITH.

 

2 - Because she truly underestimated Gaspard, because she is not so smart at this game as she believed, without Briala to help. Yes, I agree. She was even beaten by Gaspard who used rumors, a theather, her own university to get her cornered. Also Celene mocked the Chevaliers with a dual feathers, a consequence of her plan to win over Gaspard at the party with the ambassador Teagan. There, she had lost many points too. 

 

 

 

Well, in the book the author keep saying that she's a master in the game. She could promise, she could manipulate, she could divide them. The example of Remarche only show that nobles can change easily their mind if they think it's worth it. In this area, I certainly trust Celene. Celene lost Rematche, because like Rematche said, she had been clear that she didn't want him while Gaspard truly showed his interest.

 

So which is it ?

 

 

 

3 - I'm not following you here. What do you mean ? What Celene's uncompromising goals are you talking about ? What prevents Celene try to calm this faction, to win them, to manipulate them ? The unity of the empire is also a concern for her. Besides, she just has to show strength mostly to please. She does not need necessarily to compromise herself to influence nobles, she'd handle them so they can act as she wishes They just need that she shows strength in the matters of the country, they need to see that she is doing something and is heavily involved. And she was ready to fully satisfy them on this point. Just re-read the conversation with Leliana and her thoughts about this matter.

 

 

Governing Orlais by encouraging Culture and Knowledge, and improve the situation of the commoners and the elves. The first two means she can't marry a warmonger like Gaspard since their conception of what is good for Orlais is mutually exclusive.

And for the last two, she knows going too fast and being too obvious would lost her all of her allies, Orlais is a very conservative culture

 

Didn't she she gave a time limit for the Divine to resolve the matter because otherwise she would be forced to act to satisfy the nobles ? Here, that pretty means she compromises her goals. She didn't want at all to act that way. Celene does not want to throw the might of his empire upon itself and yet she considered doing so without hesitation to save her power. 

 

Didn't she tried to win Rematche again after losing him at the theater when she saw how the situation got bad ? She started to offer a new deal to Rematche ( sincerely or not isn't the point ) , was trying again with him while actually that wasn't what she wanted, it's Rematche that rejected her deal. Didn't she was ready to compromise her goals here too ?

 

The deal with the Divine wasn't a compromise on her goals.

 

As for Remarche she tried to win him back, yes, but that only compromised her relation with Briala, but not her political goals

 

Also, I'm sorry, but Halamshiral only showed that Celene isn't someone that is determined and courageous on her goals, against the odds, defying everyone, without compromises. This isn't her best quality. Otherwise she would have let Briala resolve the matter despite the rumors, as she truly wanted. She knew that the solution of Briala was the good thing to do. And yet, she killed thousand of elves because she couldn't resist to a few rumors and the possibility that it could become bad for her because of that. 

 

The rumors had greatly weaken her; elves are view as gutter thrash, so if it looked like the EMPRESS of Orlais, the most powerful nation of Thedas was trying to please the knife-ears, **** would've hit the fan quite quickly, marching on Halamshiral  and making a demonstration of strengh was the only politicaly viable choice, even Briala knew it.

[AppealToReason]

The rumors had greatly weaken her; elves are view as gutter thrash, so if it looked like the EMPRESS of Orlais, the most powerful nation of Thedas was trying to please the knife-ears, **** would've hit the fan quite quickly, marching on Halamshiral  and making a demonstration of strengh was the only politicaly viable choice, even Briala knew it.

 

I didn't have much an issue with it. The best kind of kill is overkill. Especially in times where news travels by word of mouth.

[MisterJB]

They are (elite) soldiers, all soldiers are murderers.

No, the Chevaliers are pure, undiluted awesomeness.

You take a normal human, teach him numerous forms meant to prepare him to fight against a dozen enemies, mages, demons, darkspawn; make his pain threshold so high he need a form just to tell him that he is wounded and it's awesome.

That's science, you can't deny it.

 

Michel killed three Dalish warriors with a blanket. And that's just a small demonstration of his awesome.

[Mistic]

The rumors had greatly weaken her; elves are view as gutter thrash, so if it looked like the EMPRESS of Orlais, the most powerful nation of Thedas was trying to please the knife-ears, **** would've hit the fan quite quickly, marching on Halamshiral  and making a demonstration of strengh was the only politicaly viable choice, even Briala knew it.

 

No, Celene kept saying that Briala had to understand and that she would admit it was the right choice at the moment. Briala by herself, however, realized the moment Celene showed up with her forces that Gaspard was plotting something, that having the Empress out of Val Royeaux was too good of an opportunity to let it pass (ch7). We all know how it ended up.

[Vapaa]

No, Celene kept saying that Briala had to understand and that she would admit it was the right choice at the moment. Briala by herself, however, realized the moment Celene showed up with her forces that Gaspard was plotting something, that having the Empress out of Val Royeaux was too good of an opportunity to let it pass (ch7). We all know how it ended up.

 

Briala knew Celene were forced to act like she did, and it was actually planned by Gaspard, it was no "opportunity", he lured Celene in Halamshiral to ambush her.

[Mistic]

Briala knew Celene were forced to act like she did, and it was actually planned by Gaspard, it was no "opportunity", he lured Celene in Halamshiral to ambush her.

 

Well, yeah, that was what I was saying? That Gaspard was plotting something? Maybe I could have used better words, but opportunities can be created, after all (Oxford: "favourable time, occasion or set of circumstances: have/get/find/create an opportunity").

 

Better to quote the text itself to avoid further problems, I guess:

"That Gaspard had a plan, she did not doubt. Celene had removed herself from Val Royeaux, thinking herself clever in outmaneuvering her cousin. It would never strike her that here in Halamshiral, with only enough soldiers to crush some elven rebels, she would be vulnerable. Briala would have warned her."

 

My point was, so much for the "only politically viable choice" when the Empress' servant could see that it was a set-up.

[Sylvianus]

@ Vapaa : I feel that you aren't reading my posts, just taking one or two sentences into account without seeing the rest, that you aren't really adressing my posts and that you are saying things that aren't even really relevant to what I'm saying. I never said that Gaspard dead, Celene would have been done with her opponents, just that she'd have less pressure to the point of an inevitable civil war for a while, more time to focus on her plans and time to retake the control of the situation, and yet you keep saying, THE SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM IS STILL HERE, ZOMG. I'm getting more and more confused by your posts, and general useless statements like " EVERYONE CONSPIRE, IT'S THE NATURE OF THE GAME, THAT' S WHY " and assertions that aren't based on material elements. So I will just adress a few things and ignore the rest.

 

VAPAA WRITE : besides how would Celene would kill Gaspard, he's one of the best Chevaliers.

 

First, Celene has killed many opponents in the past with the help of Briala during 20 years. Don't you think that she can manage to organize something like this ? You shouldn't even ask how she could kill a noble opponent or set an ambush. She's able to do that, she's able to be effective. But since you need a little help to imagine how you can kill Gaspard. Here an example : ( I'm not saying that it's what Celene would have thought and I have other plans more discrete in mind, I will simply put the easiest, otherwise I'd take me 5O lines to explain lol  ) 

 

First, do NOT refuse Gaspard's offer and just pretend that you're interested, that you will consider the marriage and you should discuss the matter further in another moment during another hunt, while it isn't true at all. Yes, Gaspard is pretty much a chevalier and a man of honor, uses his mindset against him, Celene has the best warrior, her champion named Ser Michel, and Briala one of the best bard in Orlais and an archer that doesn't miss her targets . He wanted to marry her above all, he would have been easily deceived. Shot him during the new hunt accident, ( I'm pretty sure he would wear leather as usual ) while he doesn't watch his back, with an arrow from Briala ( she is a very good archer ), and finish him with Ser Michel and a few very loyalist mens that are hidden  in the woods.  He couldn't do a damn thing, he couldn't stand a chance alone, especially with Michel and Briala both here to be the most effective. 

 

Gaspard isn't at all like Celene, when a deal is offered, he wants to respect it, he believes in it. During their truce,  he could have been easily betrayed if Ser Michel was willing to listen to Celene  who asked him to use the opportunity to kill him while the man didn't watch his back. He also said, " I will not assassinate celene, I will not use poison her, etc etc. It's obvious that he can't understand a murder plot with a false deal offered that he truly believes in.

 

Hide the corpse, act as if nothing ever happened and don't say anything until people start noticing a few days after that he disappeared and just pretend that Gaspard left the hunt and nobody knows what he became after the meeting. Of course everyone would put one and one together, but the job done well, nobody could do a damn thing like as it was the case with the Emperor Florian and Celene winning the Game over him and her conccurents. People angry, but confused. In Orlais you can easily escape justice and reactions if you didn't butcher your work. 

 

You could also use poison into his wine.

 

VAPAA WRITE : And again Gaspard's faction would not be stopped because THE SOURCE PROBLEM WOULDN'T BE DELT WITH.

 

I really don't get how you think that. That assertion is totally baseless and doesn't really make sense. Without Gaspard, there's no Gaspard's faction. Only a bunch of nobles disorganized and confused. He was doing all the stuff, they believed in him, that's all. You see that Montsimmard and the comte Chantral of Chelun aren't friends, they don't seem to share the same views, they even argue a bit, it's only Gaspard that united them and lead the way. I don't see how you can grasp something else from the material elements. The general statement,  " everyone conspire because it's the nature of the game " is certainly not an argument. Once gaspard dead, they should return to their own interests that is totally different from one to another, even if they are still angry and would hate more Celene. Like I said and you didn't seem to take into account, THE PRESSURE WOULD HAVE DROPPED FOR A WHILE, and time was what needed Celene. I didn't say that everything would be alright. The civil war would have been avoided for a while , and it was up to Celene to try to win another battle in the game without a powerful ennemy this time. She could now focus on the chantry matter, and nothing says she couldn't succeed to finally convince them that she would be able to resolve the matter. 

 

 

VAPAA WRITES : So which is it ?  I don't see the contradiction. I was agreeing with you that Celene could make mistakes ( especially because she underestimated Gaspard ) and is less smart than what she thinks,  even if she is considered as one of the best player in the game. But she still ruled the empire during 20 years after all, she's able to succeed once Gaspard is dead, her best opponent. That's all I was saying and nothing of what you said proved at all the contrary.

 

VAPAA WRITES :  and improve the situation of the commoners and the elves. 

 

You meant Briala ?  This is certainly not an uncompromising goal for Celene that did act for them especially to please  Briala, on Briala's insistence for years. Celene is progressive, but it's clearly not OMG, those nobles that don't agree with me, **** off, I will not accomodate with them, do as I command with elves, get over yourself..Yeah no. She's not willing to take all the risks for the elves.

 

VAPAA WRITES : The deal with the Divine wasn't a compromise on her goals.

 

No, you didn't get the point. The fact that she would be forced to act with the might of the empire, throwing an attack upon itself if the Divine couldn't try to resolve the matter in a few weeks. Which was totally what she couldn't stand. It goes totally against her political goal to attack inside the borders of the country. She both hates and despises that solution. And yet, she would consider doing so after a month or two if nothing was done by the divine.

 

VAAPAA WRITES :  As for Remarche she tried to win him back, yes, but that only compromised her relation with Briala, but not her political goals 

 

I'm getting confused. She decided against her will to offer him a deal, to accomodate with him, to win him. That's pretty much what I was talking about for Gaspard's faction ( once the man is dead and I was talking only about possibilities ) and yes political no matter how you try to deny it, the rest doesn't matter. She didn't want to marry anyone, ruling the empire alone. It's foolish semantics. Anyway nothing in the book support your assertion that Celene won't be flexible, won't accomodate with anyone ( or manipulate them ) that doesn't have the same opinion for the elves or culture. That's a baseless statement. She wants to elevate Orlais with culture and education, that's just her goal. It's totally irrelevant with how she'd have to deal with some nobles, the normal stuff of the game anyways. Celene killed opponents that were too dangerous and too willing to replace her, that's here I'd say she doesn't want to compromise, when it's about saving her power.

 

VAPAA WRITES : The rumors had greatly weaken her; elves are view as gutter thrash, so if it looked like the EMPRESS of Orlais, the most powerful nation of Thedas was trying to please the knife-ears, **** would've hit the fan quite quickly, marching on Halamshiral  and making a demonstration of strengh was the only politicaly viable choice, even Briala knew it.

 

I wonder if people repeat " it was the only viable choice " because Celene thinks so. Maybe I should remind of that the thought of a protagonist isn't a fact ? Briala who is the real master of the game ( yep, unlike Celene she immediately knew that it was a trap ) thought it was a foolish move. Briala immediately put one and one together. Briala aknowlegdes that Celene must had felt the pressure, yes, but no, she blamed more Celene for walking into the trap than blamed Gaspard setting the trap. That pretty much means that Celene could also have screwed up. Celene was so upset and disarmed she didn't even wait a few seconds.

 

Anyways the point was that Celene has certainly many qualities but doing things without never compromising what she wants is certainly not her best quality and shouldn't even be underlined.

[Vapaa]

 

@ Vapaa : I feel that you aren't reading my posts, just taking one or two sentences into account without seeing the rest, that you aren't really adressing my posts and that you are saying things that aren't even really relevant to what I'm saying.

 

 

And you never adresses the fact that the unrest is rooted to the Chantry crisis, and that's how Gaspard gained influence, by being the man who could solve problems, in the eyes of the nobles

 

 

VAPAA WRITE : besides how would Celene would kill Gaspard, he's one of the best Chevaliers.

 

First, Celene has killed many opponents in the past with the help of Briala during 20 years.

 

 

I was talking specifically about the hunt, she couldn't have kill him there.

Now the reason why she didn't kill him, generally speaking, is because she had a plan for solving the Chantry crisis, and that with that victory, Gaspard's faction would be left with nothing of importance to use against her.

 

 

VAPAA WRITE : And again Gaspard's faction would not be stopped because THE SOURCE PROBLEM WOULDN'T BE DELT WITH.

 

I really don't get how you think that. That assertion is totally baseless and doesn't really make sense. Without Gaspard, there's no Gaspard's faction. Only a bunch of nobles disorganized and confused. He was doing all the stuff, they believed in him, that's all. You see that Montsimmard and the comte Chantral of Chelun aren't friends, they don't seem to share the same views, they even argue a bit, it's only Gaspard that united them.

 

 

Causes are always crucial to understand, yes Gaspard led the nobles, but he used her apparent inability to resolve the Chantry crisis, that was greatly concern for the nobles, to make his move, without him, the nobles would still be concerned and trustless, it could even ignite the situation if the nobles intrepreted the death of Gaspard as a unconsidered move by a ruler who kills the one they saw as the savior.

 

The opposition (in any form) is not an animal; severing the head doesn't kills it

 

 

 I don't see the contradiction.

 

You seemed to say that Celene could've win the nobles back because she's a master of the Game, but then you said she got cornered by Gaspard, so she could win them back or she couldn't ?

 

VAPAA WRITES :  and improve the situation of the commoners and the elves. 

 

You meant Briala ?  This is certainly not an uncompromising goal for Celene that did act for them especially to please  Briala, on Briala's insistence for years. Celene is progressive, but it's clearly not OMG, those nobles that don't agree with me, **** off, I will not accomodate with them, do as I command with elves, get over yourself..Yeah no. She's not willing to take all the risks for the elves.

 

Because that's not how Orlais work...or for that matter, ANY society works, Power is only useful if others recognize it, and if Celener were to suddently stomp over a heavily established tradition, everyone would turn against her, and she would be left with no support.

 

And still she wanted to improve her country so she took baby steps, improving things little by little.

 

And yes she cared for the elves, she considered them to be part of Orlais and under her responsability.

 

VAPAA WRITES : The deal with the Divine wasn't a compromise on her goals.

 

No, you didn't get the point. The fact that she would be forced to act with the might of the empire, throwing an attack upon itself if the Divine couldn't try to resolve the matter in a few weeks. Which was totally what she couldn't stand. It goes totally against her political goal to attack inside the borders of the country. She both hates and despises that solution. And yet, she would consider doing so after a month or two if nothing was done by the divine.

You are mixing things, the Chantry problem was to be resolved by the Divine, but on top of that came the elven rebellion, and rumors that she helfs the elves, and the only politicaly viable solution was to march on Halamshiral, but that was a show of strengh against the rumors on the elves, the Chantry problem was still to be resilved by the Divine

 

 

VAAPAA WRITES :  As for Remarche she tried to win him back, yes, but that only compromised her relation with Briala, but not her political goals 

 

I'm getting confused. She decided against her will to offer him a deal, to accomodate with him to win him. That's pretty much what I was talking about for Gaspard's faction ( once the man is dead and I was talking only about possibilities ) and yes political no matter how you try to deny it, the rest doesn't matter. it's foolish semantics. Anyway nothing in the book support your assertion that Celene won't be flexible, won't accomodate with anyone ( or manipulate him ) that doesn't have the same opinion for the elves or culture. That's a baseless statement. She wants to elevate Orlais with culture and education, that's just her goal. It's totally irrelevant with how she'd have to deal with some nobles, the normal stuff of the game anyways. Celene killed opponents that were too dangerous and too willing to replace her, that's here I'd say she doesn't want to compromise, when it's about saving her power.

 

It's NOT foolish semantics, her poilitical goal is to improve Orlais by culture and wisdom, her deal with Remarche wasn't going to jeopardize that, but marriying a warmonger like Gaspard (for exemple) was going to

 

She had options, but only a few were compatible with her political goals.

 

 

Anyway nothing in the book support your assertion that Celene won't be flexible, won't accomodate with anyone ( or manipulate him ) that doesn't have the same opinion for the elves or culture.

 

It's what she wants for Orlais and why she fights for the throne, that's why she wouldn't marry Gaspard, because she knew it would just ruin that goal; Gaspard and her have mutually exclusive view of what what best for Orlais.

 

 

I wonder if people repeat " it was the only viable choice " because Celene thinks so. Maybe I should remind of that the thought of a protagonist isn't a fact ? Briala who is the real master of the game ( yep, unlike Celene she immediately knew that it was a trap ) tought it was a foolish move. Briala immediately put one and one together. Briala aknowlegdes that Celene must had felt the pressure, yes, but no, she blamed more Celene for walking into the trap than blamed Gaspard setting the trap. That pretty much means that she could also have screwed up. Celene was so upset and disarmed she didn't even wait a few seconds.

 

What options did she have against those rumors ? Her mistake was that she though Gaspard only wanted to publicy humiliate her, when in fact he was one step further and waited for her in Halamashiral.

 

And Briala didn't get the chance to think that it was an ambush before it was actually an ambush. She blamed Celene for not caring about the elves, but she does acknowledge the necessity of ther action, especially when recognizing the fact that she herself was away and couldn't give advise.

 

Anyways the point was that Celene has certainly many qualities but doing things without never compromising what she wants is certainly not her best quality and shouldn't even be underlined.

 

 

I don't understand how is this even a "quality", it's not a quality, it's a capacity, sure it's influenced on how much you are willing to compromise for your goal, but it's also at the mercy of unforseen events and deliberate attacks.

 

Celene was trapped by the situation and did what the was could while still being true to her goals, it's exatcly what Ioved about her.

[I Like Cats And]

I don't understand how any one can like Celene.

 

-doesn't actually give a crap about elves, only doing it to make her GF happy

-a ruler who is so easily swayed by their lover (especially when their lover isn't even a person of power) is dangerous and shows codependency or weakness or just plain mental instability

-she is shady as hell. power hungry. wanted to be empress so she went and had all her servants slaughtered, including the parents of her lover who's supposed to be so important to her. again mental instability. forsaken and probably out for revenge against Michel, the man who saved her countless times and guided her by the hand.

-poor tactician/doesn't think ahead. Seriously who didn't see the whole Gaspard attack coming a mile away?

 

meanwhile.....

Gaspard

-proven multiple times he lives by a strict honor code from which he can't be swayed from at the slightest.

-great tactician

-shown he's not completely bound by tradition by accepting Michel even after he found out he's not of noble blood