551 réponses à ce sujet

[Mistic]

I don't understand how any one can like Celene.

 

-doesn't actually give a crap about elves, only doing it to make her GF happy

-a ruler who is so easily swayed by their lover (especially when their lover isn't even a person of power) is dangerous and shows codependency or weakness or just plain mental instability

-she is shady as hell. power hungry. wanted to be empress so she went and had all her servants slaughtered, including the parents of her lover who's supposed to be so important to her. again mental instability. forsaken and probably out for revenge against Michel, the man who saved her countless times and guided her by the hand.

-poor tactician/doesn't think ahead. Seriously who didn't see the whole Gaspard attack coming a mile away?

 

meanwhile.....

Gaspard

-proven multiple times he lives by a strict honor code from which he can't be swayed from at the slightest.

-great tactician

-shown he's not completely bound by tradition by accepting Michel even after he found out he's not of noble blood

 

I think we have another Orzammar scenario here.

 

Yes, Gaspard has a lot of redeemable qualities, while Celene isn't as perfect as many thought before TME. However, they're both very similar. The "shady as hell, power hungry and want to be on the throne" is a trait both candidates share (not only Celene, let's not forget who cast the first stone), not to talk about the "doesn't give a crap about elves" (the difference is that Gaspard doesn't try to pretend otherwise).

 

Mainly, it's Celene's hypocrisy what makes her lose a lot of points. It's as if many readers were saying: "We expected better of you!".

 

However, even if Celene is not really a good person, she's still the best ruler that has happened to Orlais in a long time. Arts and sciences have been encouraged, educations is being spread little by little, noble sons and daughters are taught that Orlais can do good in fields other than the military, elves are enjoying better conditions (ok, not as better as many would want and only to please her lover, but bad motives don't stop the actions from being good), and Orlais is settling its issues with other countries peacefully instead of pulling another horrible invasion.

 

As much as we can admire Gaspard personally, his plans for Orlais are a step back from that. Only if you find militaristic expansion appealing would Gaspard be the perfect candidate.

 

Another thing would be if the Inquisitor can make a deal with him, because we know he keeps his word no matter what.

[I Like Cats And]

I think we have another Orzammar scenario here.

 

Yes, Gaspard has a lot of redeemable qualities, while Celene isn't as perfect as many thought before TME. However, they're both very similar. The "shady as hell, power hungry and want to be on the throne" is a trait both candidates share (not only Celene, let's not forget who cast the first stone), not to talk about the "doesn't give a crap about elves" (the difference is that Gaspard doesn't try to pretend otherwise).

 

Mainly, it's Celene's hypocrisy what makes her lose a lot of points. It's as if many readers were saying: "We expected better of you!".

 

However, even if Celene is not really a good person, she's still the best ruler that has happened to Orlais in a long time. Arts and sciences have been encouraged, educations is being spread little by little, noble sons and daughters are taught that Orlais can do good in fields other than the military, elves are enjoying better conditions (ok, not as better as many would want and only to please her lover, but bad motives don't stop the actions from being good), and Orlais is settling its issues with other countries peacefully instead of pulling another horrible invasion.

 

As much as we can admire Gaspard personally, his plans for Orlais are a step back from that. Only if you find militaristic expansion appealing would Gaspard be the perfect candidate.

 

Another thing would be if the Inquisitor can make a deal with him, because we know he keeps his word no matter what.

Yea you raise some good points. I think I just now realized I'm a Gaspard fan boy.....love that guy ;_;

[Sylvianus]

@ VAPAA : Omg, the discussion doesn't make sense anymore. XD 

 

VAPAA writes : And you never adresses the fact that the unrest is rooted to the Chantry crisis, and that's how Gaspard gained influence, by being the man who could solve problems, in the eyes of the nobles

 

Why do I need to adress that point when the only thing that Celene has to do to satisfy them is using the might of the empire and being heavily involved in the name of safety ? ( what she isn't willing to do at this moment, hoping for some alternatives from the chantry )  It's also oversimplification to think that the nobles are behind Gaspard. Gaspard is not necessarily needed for most of the nobles. Some nobles see him as a great alternative, not necessarily the only way to go. Most of people blame Celene's weaknesses on the matter of the templar / mage war, because they think she is doing nothing. But once she shows she is doing something, once she strongly acts ( despite despising that solution ) isn't it logical that they could be happier with her ?  

 

VAPAA WRITES : Now the reason why she didn't kill him, generally speaking, is because she had a plan for solving the Chantry crisis, and that with that victory, Gaspard's faction would be left with nothing of importance to use against her. 

 

Gaspard during the hunt directly attacked her, speaking of treason, and directly said that she would pay her rejection of his offer, that all that would happen was because of her. How is it not obvious enough at least at this point to act against him before the situation got radically bad, even worse ? It was pretty clear that they were done and the war would really begin. After refusing the marriage she knew that Gaspard would act for real and she did nothing for weeks, wondering his next move and she was finally trapped. She has probably her reasons, willing to wait and see, but that was not a thing to do in my opinion.

 

VAPAA WRITES : You seemed to say that Celene could've win the nobles back because she's a master of the Game, but then you said she got cornered by Gaspard, so she could win them back or she couldn't ? [/quote]

 

My second post agreeing with yours only explained  and justified why she got cornered by Gaspard in the book and why while she's one of the best player, it's also true that she can be mistaken and is not as smart as she believes. I never said that she was someone bad at the game and wouldn't be able to convince the nobles. She ruled the empire for 20 years after all. I don't see how aknowledging objectively her characterization and some mistakes makes it contradictory. But whatever you say.

 

VAPAA WRITES : Because that's not how Orlais work...or for that matter, ANY society works, Power is only useful if others recognize it, and if Celener were to suddently stomp over a heavily established tradition, everyone would turn against her, and she would be left with no support.

 

I don't even need to answer to that statement which doesn't mean anything. And there's definitely nothing that could even help to explain why everyone would turn against her if she did so. 

 

VAPAA WRITES :Causes are always crucial to understand, yes Gaspard led the nobles, but he used her apparent inability to resolve the Chantry crisis, that was greatly concern for the nobles, to make his move, without him, the nobles would still be concerned and trustless, it could even ignite the situation if the nobles intrepreted the death of Gaspard as a unconsidered move by a ruler who kills the one they saw as the savior. 

 

They would be angry but disorganized. Most of the nobles as it stated into the book are spectators, anxious and balance. Some might prefer Gaspard, but once he's dead, there would be only Celene. Only a minority is really behind Gaspard. The other nobles didn't side with anyone yet, even if among them there are people who might see Gaspard as an alternative. Like you said, thoses nobles are more concerned for the templar / mage war. I also don't see where Gaspard is considered as a savior. He's the only one asserting that he is the savior for Orlais. If nobles would have seen him as a savior, he shouldn't try hard to convince them to win them with arguments like he did with Chantral, or he shouldn't have to offer things and promises to Rematche to win him too. That's how Celene lost the Duke. I definitely don't see it. It's just about preferences, interests. They are not fanatics. 

 

VAPAA WRITES : You are mixing things, the Chantry problem was to be resolved by the Divine, but on top of that came the elven rebellion, and rumors that she helfs the elves, and the only politicaly viable solution was to march on Halamshiral, but that was a show of strengh against the rumors on the elves, the Chantry problem was still to be resilved by the Divine

 

Now, I understand why I didn't follow you. I'm talking about the discussion between Leliana and Celene into the university at the beginning of the novel, about the templar / mage war; But I feel that it's better to give the sentences from the book.

 

" There are mens of Orlais who would sooner see us march upon our own people in the name of safety. I would despise that, dorothea knows I would. But I must offer them some alternative. Three weeks or at most, a month. Any longer and I will have no choice but to act. "

 

I hope thoses lines will open your eyes. I really can't do more. Celene would compromise her political ideals to satisfy the nobles, because she cares about her power. 

 

VAPAA WRITES : It's what she wants for Orlais and why she fights for the throne, that's why she wouldn't marry Gaspard, because she knew it would just ruin that goal; Gaspard and her have mutually exclusive view of what what best for Orlais. It's NOT foolish semantics, her poilitical goal is to improve Orlais by culture and wisdom, her deal with Remarche wasn't going to jeopardize that, but marriying a warmonger like Gaspard (for exemple) was going to etc etc

 

Okay. You quoted my point arguing about how once Gaspard dead, Celene could try to win his faction, manipulate them, trying to divide them, etc. And you countered that she is a good player in the game but she still has political goals she doesn't want to compromise. It never was about Gaspard here. ( we know she can't stand the man and doesn't want to have anything to do with him ) But the nobles behind him. My point you quoted since the beginning was about trying to appease or convincing the nobles who prefered him, once Gaspard dead. She could totally act that way. 

 

Seriously I give up because this discussion doesn't make sense at all. It goes in all the directions. 

[Mistic]

Yea you raise some good points. I think I just now realized I'm a Gaspard fan boy.....love that guy ;_;

 

Gaspard is a fascinating character. I hope DA:I provides more three-dimensional characters like him. The Red Templars and the Blood Mages will be enough to fill the crazy bastards quota.

[TCBC_Freak]

All Gaspard's Chevaliers died like mooks: except Gaspard himself and it hit me, Michel easily kills most of his enemies because he's the player character.

 

I just like this, you are spot on, lol.

 

To the topic, Celene is a fool, she thinks she is the best at the game, but is easily duped by Gaspard, who openly admits he hates the game and isn't very good at it. Not once, but multiply times he turns her where he wants because of her pride. From the beginning with the dueling feathers - everyone thinks Celene is right when she assumes that Gaspard is goading Tegan into a duel so he can have war with Fereldan, the truth is that he wanted her to do something to come to Teagan’s defense showing she cares more about appeasing a foreigner than about real honor. Which she does, and not only that but does so in a way that openly insults the best warriors in her army. She drags along Romansch and then is shocked that he sides against her after years of her toying with him (because toying with boys when she and they were 16 helped her win the throne, of course it would still work). She rejects Gaspard’s offer of marriage (admitting that she needs his strength to rule her nation while pushing him away, which sure was smart) and then when the elves, “rebel,” she does nothing, Bria has a plan and Celene says she’ll go along with it. That is until Gaspard, “Forces her hand,” with a silly play and a rumor and what does she do? Rides to war right then, and while on the way, marches her men too hard, she even asks Michel when they’ll arrive and he tell her they should let the men rest before reaching the city, but she ignores him and goes right into the city…

 

Which If I can interrupt my anti-Celene rant for a moment with another anti-Celene rant… Had she waited then not only would her men have been better rested to fight against Gaspard, but the nights rest of her men would have let Bria kill the dumb noble, meaning that when her men arrived the elves may have been dispersed, this would have been the best outcome, she would have showed she was willing to use force (marching her army) but she wouldn’t have needed to, thus being the best outcome for everyone. She would have been able to say simply, “The situation was resolved before we arrived, how wonderful.” And marched her skinny butt back to the capital…

 

After Gaspard kills her men she runs (one of her few smart moves) but when her and her “friends,” reach a village that had been sacked by loyalist troops she doesn’t go looking for the loyal men who are in the area, she decides to go looking for the Dalish, in the middle of the woods. I could go on, but I’ll stop there for this post.

 

She is so convinced of her own awesomeness at the game that she thinks she can win over anyone, but the whole book is her losing at the game. From her treatment of the scholar in the beginning that leads to them joining Gaspard which shocks her, and shaming the chevaliers, to pulling along Romansch for years until he gets tired of it. She is constantly reacting to everyone else’s moves, even killing Bria’s family was not her choice, and it was something she did because she “had no choice.” Celene is still that 16yo kid being lead around by others thinking she is so important and great and the best at the game, when in reality, she loses every step of the way. By-the-by, I find it funny that there is a choice demon when the whole book is about a character who never once makes her own choice.

[Lexiath]

Celene, Briala and Gaspard had very dark characteristics and at the same time likeable good characteristics. Great written characters and each of them compelling in their own ways. They seemed so real. In an ideal world all three of them would work -together- to make Orlais the greatest Empire of Thedas for all it's citizens. Elves, Human and otherwise. 

Unfortunately that's neither here nor there. The Elves in Dragon Age have always been my favorite of the known races present. As such I am biased towards Briala and the City Elves and hoping that they come out of this war in a better state than they entered. As others have said though, Briala's intention to prolong the civil war as long as possible knowing the amount of death will result from it does not float well with me. I believe Briala's actions will only result in a worse future for the Elves. Elves are already being hated and Briala's actions will only widen the gap between humans and elves and increase the mutual hate. If having to support someone my choice would fall upon the one character that I believe has a better method to increase the lives for all her citizens: Celene.

Under Celene's 20 years of rule Orlais has entered an Enlightened age. She is a staunch supporter of improving education and making it accessible to anyone. In her reign she already has improved the lives of City Elves. Celene preferes to resolve issues through dialogue and diplomacy. Where Gaspard wants to rule through might and absolution, Celene wants to achieve her goals through compromise with as little bloodshed as possible.

The slaughter of the Elves of Halamshiral was terrible, but let's not forget the reality of the situation. Celene tried to solve it with as little violence as possible through Briala. Gaspards political acts negated Celene's attempt of a bloodless resolution. And where Celene at least tried another approach and expresses regret for failing, Gaspard does not care. Where Celene wants to improve the lives of -all- her citizens (knowing that centuries of racism can't just be waved away without making it worse), Gaspard would just bulldoze over everyone. Briala only fights for the elves, whereas Gaspard only fights for the Orlesian humans. Celene fights for both.

So my choice would be Celene! Celene for Empress of Orlais!! Whoohoo!  

PS. I hope Briala and Celene get together again. I feel the ending made it clear to me they still loved each other deeply. If anything Briala and Celene understand each other in ways only lifelong lovers can. Their goals are not that different. I hope they can overcome this crisis together.

 

[Beerfish]

I just finished the book so now I can enter this thread.   I am going to guess what peoples general opinions of the key players are and they will be the exact opposite of mine as they were in Asunder in which everyone loved Rhys, Evangeline, Leliana and hated Lambert and the red head mage.

 

Everyone will love Briala as some kind of honourable freedom fighter.

EVeryone will love Michel as an honourable chevalier.

Most people will hate Celene for her actions.

Most people will at first hate Gaspard but then be charmed by his honour.

Everyone will love Felassian.

 

Is this about right?  (I have not perused the thread yet.)

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I just finished the book so now I can enter this thread.   I am going to guess what peoples general opinions of the key players are and they will be the exact opposite of mine as they were in Asunder in which everyone loved Rhys, Evangeline, Leliana and hated Lambert and the red head mage.

 

Everyone will love Briala as some kind of honourable freedom fighter.

EVeryone will love Michel as an honourable chevalier.

Most people will hate Celene for her actions.

Most people will at first hate Gaspard but then be charmed by his honour.

Everyone will love Felassian.

 

Is this about right?  (I have not perused the thread yet.)

The words 'honorable' and 'Chevalier' shouldn't be in the same sentence unless there is a negating word, such as 'isn't' or 'aren't'.

[HiroVoid]

Chevaliers aren't not honorable?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Chevaliers aren't not honorable?

That's two negating words, I said a, as in singular. 

[Former_Fiend]

The problem with saying someone is or isn't honorable is that the word honor has no set definition. What one person, or one culture, considers honorable, another would consider dishonorable. 

[Lexiath]

Chevaliers follow a code that places them above the law and from what I remember they can do with commoners whatever. Rape, torture, claim, kill. So they follow a certain code from which they deprive their honour and may regard themselves as such. How honourable they are perceived to be by others is a matter of debate.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Chevaliers follow a code that places them above the law and from what I remember they can do with commoners whatever. Rape, torture, claim, kill. So they follow a certain code from which they deprive their honour and may regard themselves as such. How honourable they are perceived to be by others is a matter of debate.

I'm looking forward to the possibility of imprisoning or killing every last one of them for that reason.

[Former_Fiend]

I don't like the chevaliers any more than Hina does, but I'm not about to start arguing that my definition of a meaningless word is more valid than theirs. 

[Heimdall]

Celene not caring about elves? I have to wonder if we read the same book. If Celene didn't care about elves, she wouldn't have gone to such pains to push such an unpopular political agenda. If she didn't care about elves, she would have removed all the reforms she made for their sake instead of marching on Halamshiral. Half the point of that gesture was to keep her achievements on that front in place. Letting Briala kill the lord of Halamshiral would save the elves of Halamshiral, but not the elves of Orlais. Only Celene keeping her throne could help the elves of Orlais in the long run. Celene said it herself, she's willing to burn one city to save the rest.

Celene put down the rebellion because Briala's mission was no longer sufficient to banish the discontent. The rebellion fading away would be insufficient. Celene herself had to be seen as having an active role in ending it.

Celene is good at the game. She understands the importance of appearances in maintaining authority. She just has two major deficiencies. She is untrained and unskilled in war, and that extends to a lack of understanding in regards to Chevalier honor or warrior thinking in general, and Briala is a massive blind spot for her.

The former is why she didn't realize Gaspard's trap. She analyzed the situation politically, not militarily.

[Former_Fiend]

We were definitely reading different books; I didn't see Celene going to any pains to help the elves. I saw her having a pleasant conversation with a school headmaster and decreeing that elves could apply for special passes to go into districts of the city that anyone else could walk through freely. Really breaking down cultural barriers, that is.

[Sylvianus]

Celene not caring about elves? I have to wonder if we read the same book. If Celene didn't care about elves, she wouldn't have gone to such pains to push such an unpopular political agenda. If she didn't care about elves, she would have removed all the reforms she made for their sake instead of marching on Halamshiral. Half the point of that gesture was to keep her achievements on that front in place. 
 

 

I disagree with that statement though. Celene only marched on Halamshiral because that would be the only effective way to dismiss the rumors, removing the reforms would have done absolutely nothing, that's why she didn't considered it. It has no purpose. Removing the reforms you did is useless if it has almost no effects. It's especially politically admitting that you did a mistake and send a wrong message to the people and nobles. That would be politically stupid. You don't need to be concerned for the elves here.

 

There were countless options, but she had discarded all but a few immediately. New trade restrictions, or revoking her request to the uiversity to admit the elven scholar... those actions wold convince a few, but they would not sweep across the empire, leaving no doubt of Celene's strength.

 

She simply and coldly assess her options, I do not see love for the elves at this moment. She simply hates using the might of the empire upon its people no matter what, yes, but that is overall.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Ugh down with Celene I say! Let Fantasy! France return to it's militaristic roots and ensure that we will never have to suffer through another Isolde!

[Vapaa]

Celene not caring about elves? I have to wonder if we read the same book. If Celene didn't care about elves, she wouldn't have gone to such pains to push such an unpopular political agenda. If she didn't care about elves, she would have removed all the reforms she made for their sake instead of marching on Halamshiral. Half the point of that gesture was to keep her achievements on that front in place. Letting Briala kill the lord of Halamshiral would save the elves of Halamshiral, but not the elves of Orlais. Only Celene keeping her throne could help the elves of Orlais in the long run. Celene said it herself, she's willing to burn one city to save the rest.

Celene put down the rebellion because Briala's mission was no longer sufficient to banish the discontent. The rebellion fading away would be insufficient. Celene herself had to be seen as having an active role in ending it.

Celene is good at the game. She understands the importance of appearances in maintaining authority. She just has two major deficiencies. She is untrained and unskilled in war, and that extends to a lack of understanding in regards to Chevalier honor or warrior thinking in general, and Briala is a massive blind spot for her.

The former is why she didn't realize Gaspard's trap. She analyzed the situation politically, not militarily.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself (and didn't, to be honest).

 

Especially the bolded part.

[MisterJB]

I'm looking forward to the possibility of imprisoning or killing every last one of them for that reason.

Because society grants them a right that many might not abuse?

[MisterJB]

decreeing that elves could apply for special passes to go into districts of the city that anyone else could walk through freely.

The passes were so that elven merchants could sell their wares in the High Market. I imagine their human counterparts also have to purchase similar passes rather than them having the freedom to just set up shop wherever they please.

[Dean_the_Young]

Because society grants them a right that many might not abuse?

I think its more about how abusing it for murder is an initiation ritual.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I think its more about how abusing it for murder is an initiation ritual.

Which is an entirely informal "initiation" and is more a result of society than a symptom of the Chevaliers themselves.

[Heimdall]

I disagree with that statement though. Celene only marched on Halamshiral because that would be the only effective way to dismiss the rumors, removing the reforms would have done absolutely nothing, that's why she didn't considered it. It has no purpose. Removing the reforms you did is useless if it has almost no effects. It's especially politically admitting that you did a mistake and send a wrong message to the people and nobles. That would be politically stupid. You don't need to be concerned for the elves here.
 
There were countless options, but she had discarded all but a few immediately. New trade restrictions, or revoking her request to the uiversity to admit the elven scholar... those actions wold convince a few, but they would not sweep across the empire, leaving no doubt of Celene's strength.
 
She simply and coldly assess her options, I do not see love for the elves at this moment. She simply hates using the might of the empire upon its people no matter what, yes, but that is overall.

The point stands that she wouldn't have pushed politically unpopular reform if she didn't believe in what she was doing for the elves.

[Ianamus]

I don't think that "Celene only helped the elves to make Briala happy" is the case at all. 

 

I think that Celene genuinely does believe that elves should have equal rights. Her conversation with Leliana at the Theater, where Briala was absent, implied as much. 

 

It's true that the reason she has a higher view of elves than a lot of people is largely because she fell in love with one, but who can honestly say that their impressions of a group of people have not been altered by personally knowing a member of said group? 

 

Had Celene not fallen in love with Briala her view of elves may be different, but she did fall in love with Briala and it clearly shaped her outlook on the elves. Were she put back on the throne she would probably still implement policies that would help the elves, or at least avoid ones that would harm them, even though Briala is no longer with her.