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[Beerfish]

A few quick comments and a question...

 

- One thing I liked about this book is how skillfully Mr. Weekes used existing fame lore as far as spells and creatures.  One could really identify with certain spells being cast and enemies like the Sylvans and the undead and such.  Some of the longer battle scenes for me got a bit dry as far as his description went but most of the writing was good, good story, some nice twists.

 

- Too bad Briala stabbed Celene in the back at the end.  Worse yet she very stupidly let both Celene and Gaspard live.  She talks with Fellasin about extending the war between the two factions nudge nudge wink wink to make it easier for her elves.  It's just as likely that either Celene or Gaspard or both if they feel the threat is big enough will do one of two things.  1) Immediately go on a huge pr move with significant reforms for the city elves to get them on their sides or 2) Come down very very hard on the city elves to try and totally squash any thought of rebellion.  (They are fully aware who controls the Eluvians and what her goals are.)

 

- Then we have the traitorous Michel, hopefully if Celene gets back into power she uses all methods to put him down.  Michel abandons his code because he made a foolish promise with Briala which should have never superseded his overall oath as a chevalier and champion of the empress.  Not only that the bone head after betraying that trust by yielding then blabs the information that he made Briala keep secret.

 

Now comes a question, I'm sure it has been discussed a lot in this thread already but I'd have to filter though many pages to find it (my apologies for being so lazy in this regard).  So who was the being that Felassin talked to at the end and let kill him?  Was it Imshael?  Had Felassin made a deal with him in some regard?  What have I missed her.

[Heimdall]

 
Now comes a question, I'm sure it has been discussed a lot in this thread already but I'd have to filter though many pages to find it (my apologies for being so lazy in this regard).  So who was the being that Felassin talked to at the end and let kill him?  Was it Imshael?  Had Felassin made a deal with him in some regard?  What have I missed her.

Probably not Imshael. We don't know who it was, but most suspect its the antagonist of DAI.

[Former_Fiend]

The point stands that she wouldn't have pushed politically unpopular reform if she didn't believe in what she was doing for the elves.

 

She wouldn't be the first politician to make a few minor reforms that they didn't believe in in order to appease the person they shared a bed with.

 

I don't think anyone's saying that Celene actively opposes the elves. At the very least, I don't think she does; she's not a vicious, foaming-at-the-mouth, anti-elf racist. But there is a long, long, long way between that and actively supporting the elves. I just don't think she cares about them one way or the other. She's willing to make a few minor changes in order to make Briala happy, but that's about as far as her support goes.

 

For what it's worth, I think her response to Gaspard's rumors would have been the same if, through whatever circumstances, the victims of her mass murder were human peasants. She doesn't view the citizens of her empire as people; they're all pieces of a greater whole, and she's willing to cut off part of it if, in her view, it's for the good of the rest.

[Heimdall]

She wouldn't be the first politician to make a few minor reforms that they didn't believe in in order to appease the person they shared a bed with.

I don't think anyone's saying that Celene actively opposes the elves. At the very least, I don't think she does; she's not a vicious, foaming-at-the-mouth, anti-elf racist. But there is a long, long, long way between that and actively supporting the elves. I just don't think she cares about them one way or the other. She's willing to make a few minor changes in order to make Briala happy, but that's about as far as her support goes.

For what it's worth, I think her response to Gaspard's rumors would have been the same if, through whatever circumstances, the victims of her mass murder were human peasants. She doesn't view the citizens of her empire as people; they're all pieces of a greater whole, and she's willing to cut off part of it if, in her view, it's for the good of the rest.

Celene articulates her feelings on the matter, though I can't look up the passage right now. She refutes it rather emphatically when Briala implies Celene is only helping the elves because Briala shares her bed. If Briala did anything, she opened Celene's eyes to the capabilities of the elves. As I recall, she sees the elves as any other citizen of Orlais, citizen's who are unable to reach their potential as society stands now. She wonders at how many great minds had been denied Orlais because elves couldn't enter university, and so on.

Celene's ultimate goal is to bring Orlais into a more enlightened, more egalitarian era. Allowing the elves to exercise their full potential is an important part of that plan. She just isn't willing to risk it all over one ill timed rebellion.

Oh, she views them as people. Don't make any mistake about that. She certainly doesn't do something like Halamshiral without pause or doubt. She just doesn't let it get in the way of doing what she feels she must to protect the whole. It's rather a necessary attribute in a ruler.

[Former_Fiend]

I think that if Celene were truly an enlightened leader, she wouldn't have sacrificed that enlightenment the moment she was outplayed and respond with behavior more suited to a warlord than a woman of learning.

 

She was angry. She was personally slighted. Gaspard had taken her most private of pleasures, her relationship with Briala, and turned it against her, and he used her most favored institutions, the theater and the university, to do so. He outplayed her, he humiliated her, and he had used her toys to do it.

 

And she decided that she was going to take that anger out on the elves to prove all of her detractors wrong.

 

It was a petty, childish, reactionary, and impulsive move that she wound up paying dearly for, and the whole time she deflected responsibility for her actions onto Gaspard.

 

Celene likes to play the part of the enlightened ruler. I'm sure she's convinced herself that she is. But at the end of the day her first concern is herself. Her power. Her image. Her vanity. When news first reaches her about the elven uprisings, she isn't concerned about the wider implications it has for the empire, she's annoyed at the inconvenience it will personally cause her.

 

To be clear, I don't think Gaspard's any better. And I'm rather hoping "Kill them and hope whoever takes their place has more sense" is an option when it comes time to deal with them in DAI.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Celene was not taking out her petty anger on the elves. There was a rebellion and she was in a left vulnerable position of accused of being too soft on them. Putting down the elf rebels of Halamshiral the way she did, is politically just what would have been expected of her.

[Former_Fiend]

Then in addition to being an impulsive ruler, she's a weak one. She compromises her beliefs to save face with those under her command when she should use her position to enforce those beliefs. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That's not how politics work. The Empress can't just do whatever she wants.

[Former_Fiend]

A convenient lie told by the ones who don't have the backbone to stick to their guns.

 

Celene is either too weak to enforce what she believes is right, or two cowardly to try. In either case, whatever she believes is best for the empire is immaterial; the only thing that is going to happen to the empire is the stagnation of the status quo so long as it is ruled by leaders who are too afraid of upsetting the sensibilities of nobles to bring any real reform.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

A convenient lie told by the ones who don't have the backbone to stick to their guns.

This is simply false. There really isn't any other way to break this down. Everyone in the story recognizes this, even Celene's enemies.

[Former_Fiend]

Strong leaders can force change to happen when they see it needs to happen. They may be the exception to the rule by a huge margin, but it does and can happen.

 

If Celene can't, then she's not an exceptional leader. She's just another worthless politician with delusions of grandeur who'll be forgotten by history.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Strong leaders can force change to happen when they see it needs to happen. They may be the exception to the rule by a huge margin, but it does and can happen.

 

If Celene can't, then she's not an exceptional leader. She's just another worthless politician with delusions of grandeur who'll be forgotten by history.

 

What you're describing is the exception, not the rule.

[TheTurtle]

A convenient lie told by the ones who don't have the backbone to stick to their guns

I just wanna chime in here and say that's a very naive way of thinking. Politics are a very intricate game especially in a place like Orlais. You cannot simply bludgeon your way into reform it is something that takes time and planning. If Celene had done something that only confirmed Gaspard's rumors then she would have lost a lot of support and most likely her throne. Had this happened Gaspard would have taken the throne and undoubtably would do much worse to stop the eleven attacks.

Being lenient in that situation would have cost Celene her title and any policy she made would have been quickly reversed by her forerunner to placate the nobles who found said policy offensive.

[Heimdall]

Strong leaders can force change to happen when they see it needs to happen. They may be the exception to the rule by a huge margin, but it does and can happen.
 
If Celene can't, then she's not an exceptional leader. She's just another worthless politician with delusions of grandeur who'll be forgotten by history.

Nice sentiment, quite divorced from practical reality though. The leader that insists on always having their way regardless of their constituency isn't going to stay a leader for very long.

But more to the point, Celene did what she did to defend the Orlais she envisioned. And yes, that includes her efforts to improve the lot of elves. She wasn't throwing anything away.

[Former_Fiend]

What you're describing is the exception, not the rule.

 

And it's the exceptions that actually make a difference in the world.

 

If Celene isn't an exceptional ruler, then she's nothing but a worthless puppet for the nobility. There would be no real change under her rule. A few token reforms that she would hail as revolutionary advances in progress that would be easily overturned whenever the nobles started acting up, or by the next ruler who found them disagreeable. 

 

There is no middle ground here. If she truly believed in equal rights for the elves, then she should have done exactly what she told Briala she couldn't; declare them equal citizens under the law and used all the power at her disposal to deal with the fall out. 

 

That she didn't do that tells me one of two things; she either doesn't believe in the cause, or she's a coward who prefers to call herself a realist.

[Ianamus]

Celene is either too weak to enforce what she believes is right, or two cowardly to try. In either case, whatever she believes is best for the empire is immaterial; the only thing that is going to happen to the empire is the stagnation of the status quo so long as it is ruled by leaders who are too afraid of upsetting the sensibilities of nobles to bring any real reform.

 

What rubbish. 

 

If Celene just outright declared the elves had equal rights she'd be dead within a week. 

[Heimdall]

I think that if Celene were truly an enlightened leader, she wouldn't have sacrificed that enlightenment the moment she was outplayed and respond with behavior more suited to a warlord than a woman of learning.
 
She was angry. She was personally slighted. Gaspard had taken her most private of pleasures, her relationship with Briala, and turned it against her, and he used her most favored institutions, the theater and the university, to do so. He outplayed her, he humiliated her, and he had used her toys to do it.
 
And she decided that she was going to take that anger out on the elves to prove all of her detractors wrong.
 
It was a petty, childish, reactionary, and impulsive move that she wound up paying dearly for, and the whole time she deflected responsibility for her actions onto Gaspard.
 
Celene likes to play the part of the enlightened ruler. I'm sure she's convinced herself that she is. But at the end of the day her first concern is herself. Her power. Her image. Her vanity. When news first reaches her about the elven uprisings, she isn't concerned about the wider implications it has for the empire, she's annoyed at the inconvenience it will personally cause her.
 
To be clear, I don't think Gaspard's any better. And I'm rather hoping "Kill them and hope whoever takes their place has more sense" is an option when it comes time to deal with them in DAI.

Wow, that was definitely not Celene's reaction. She wasn't taking anything out on the elves. She didn't even want to do it. That the playwrights and university were turning against her told Celene one thing, that the discontent against her treatment of the elves had grown too much. It would no longer simmer down once the elven rebellion in Halamshiral did if Briala was successful. That was why she chose to march on Halamshiral, not petty emotions.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

And it's the exceptions that actually make a difference in the world.

 

If Celene isn't an exceptional ruler, then she's nothing but a worthless puppet for the nobility. There would be no real change under her rule. A few token reforms that she would hail as revolutionary advances in progress that would be easily overturned whenever the nobles started acting up, or by the next ruler who found them disagreeable. 

 

There is no middle ground here. If she truly believed in equal rights for the elves, then she should have done exactly what she told Briala she couldn't; declare them equal citizens under the law and used all the power at her disposal to deal with the fall out. 

 

That she didn't do that tells me one of two things; she either doesn't believe in the cause, or she's a coward who prefers to call herself a realist.

 

But it's still the general rule that rulers can't just do whatever they want.The entire reason that Briala turned on Celene was that she realized that the Empress was incapable of delivering elf freedom (at least that would satisfy her), even if she wanted to. This has nothing to do with Celene's skill at rule, it's the immutable fact of life in Orlais.

[Former_Fiend]

What rubbish. 

 

If Celene just outright declared the elves had equal rights she'd be dead within a week. 

 

Given the state Orlais has ended up in under her rule, that wouldn't have been any great loss.

[Former_Fiend]

But it's still the general rule that rulers can't just do whatever they want.The entire reason that Briala turned on Celene was that she realized that the Empress was incapable of delivering elf freedom (at least that would satisfy her), even if she wanted to. This has nothing to do with Celene's skill at rule, it's the immutable fact of life in Orlais.

 

She turned on Celene because she realized that she was unwilling to excercise what power she did have to make a difference. Maybe it would have worked, maybe it wouldn't have, but Celene was unwilling to risk it. Celene was unwilling to take any risks, and a leader unwilling to take risks is a leader who never accomplishes anything.

 

If Orlais is truly so diseased a nation that it absolutely cannot be changed, then it's not worth saving. Let the demons have it.

[Ianamus]

Given the state Orlais has ended up in under her rule, that wouldn't have been any great loss.

 

Orlais ended up in the state it's in due to the mage-templar conflict, which has absolutely nothing to do with her, and Gaspard being a war-obsessed idiot.

[Heimdall]

There is no middle ground here. If she truly believed in equal rights for the elves, then she should have done exactly what she told Briala she couldn't; declare them equal citizens under the law and used all the power at her disposal to deal with the fall out.

That she didn't do that tells me one of two things; she either doesn't believe in the cause, or she's a coward who prefers to call herself a realist.

Anyone who actually believes this will never make a difference in the world. No leader has ever been able to force change without support. Declaring the elves equal would divest Celene of all the force she could wield to enforce it. And then where would the elves be? All rulership is a matter of give and take.

You're calling Celene a coward for not committing pointless suicide.

Martyr's get all the songs, but it's the reformers that get things done. A wise historian once told me that to be a reformer is to perform a perilous balancing act. The reformer must deal with both those stubbornly believing all change is bad and those naive fools that believe a change is inherently good and should be rushed forward regardless of the consequences. To the reformer falls the task of implementing change in such a way that society is improved without tearing itself apart. It is not a pretty path, nor an easy one, nor one that is popular, but in my eyes it can be the most noble road of all.

[TheTurtle]

She turned on Celene because she realized that she was unwilling to excercise what power she did have to make a difference. Maybe it would have worked, maybe it wouldn't have, but Celene was unwilling to risk it. Celene was unwilling to take any risks, and a leader unwilling to take risks is a leader who never accomplishes anything.
 
If Orlais is truly so diseased a nation that it absolutely cannot be changed, then it's not worth saving. Let the demons have it.

There is a difference between taking risk and doing something that you know is doomed to failure.

[Former_Fiend]

Wow, that was definitely not Celene's reaction. She wasn't taking anything out on the elves. She didn't even want to do it. That the playwrights and university were turning against her told Celene one thing, that the discontent against her treatment of the elves had grown too much. It would no longer simmer down once the elven rebellion in Halamshiral did if Briala was successful. That was why she chose to march on Halamshiral, not petty emotions.

 

The fact that she reached the decision within the span of five minutes makes it an impulsive decision. Had she sat down and given it some thought she might have realized that she should have taken another message; that playwrights and professors can be bought off.

 

Celene could have continued the fight on those fronts. She could have paid off playwrights to write works showing elves as heroes. She could have paid professors to write papers denouncing those of her rivals and expounding on the virtues of equality. She should have been doing that from the start. Those thoughts never occur to her. All of the options she mulls over involve backtracking over what (very) little progress she has made on the front of elven rights, before deciding that's too little and only an act of mass murder will suffice to show that she's not weak. If that isn't posturing, I don't know what is.

 

And maybe if she had actually given it some thought, she might have realized she was walking into a trap before that trap was sprung, and wouldn't have gotten hundreds of soldiers killed as well. Instead, she forced her march like a headstrong child, leaving her army exhausted when Gaspard descended upon them, leaving them slaughtered. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

She turned on Celene because she realized that she was unwilling to excercise what power she did have to make a difference. Maybe it would have worked, maybe it wouldn't have, but Celene was unwilling to risk it. Celene was unwilling to take any risks, and a leader unwilling to take risks is a leader who never accomplishes anything.

 

If Orlais is truly so diseased a nation that it absolutely cannot be changed, then it's not worth saving. Let the demons have it.

 

Briala even acknowledges that Celene's promise is genuine, but that she would still even up breaking it because even if she tried, she would fail.

 

The fact that she reached the decision within the span of five minutes makes it an impulsive decision. Had she sat down and given it some thought she might have realized that she should have taken another message; that playwrights and professors can be bought off.

 

Celene could have continued the fight on those fronts. She could have paid off playwrights to write works showing elves as heroes. She could have paid professors to write papers denouncing those of her rivals and expounding on the virtues of equality. She should have been doing that from the start. Those thoughts never occur to her. All of the options she mulls over involve backtracking over what (very) little progress she has made on the front of elven rights, before deciding that's too little and only an act of mass murder will suffice to show that she's not weak. If that isn't posturing, I don't know what is.

 

And maybe if she had actually given it some thought, she might have realized she was walking into a trap before that trap was sprung, and wouldn't have gotten hundreds of soldiers killed as well. Instead, she forced her march like a headstrong child, leaving her army exhausted when Gaspard descended upon them, leaving them slaughtered. 

 

That wouldn't have worked at all. Her position was weakened because she was accused of being too soft on elves. That would have made her position worse because she'd be proving her detractors right. Her mistake was marching her army to Halamshiral fast enough to tire them out, but Gaspard's trap was effective because he knew that politically she'd have no choice but to go through with it.