551 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

The fact that she reached the decision within the span of five minutes makes it an impulsive decision. Had she sat down and given it some thought she might have realized that she should have taken another message; that playwrights and professors can be bought off.
 
Celene could have continued the fight on those fronts. She could have paid off playwrights to write works showing elves as heroes. She could have paid professors to write papers denouncing those of her rivals and expounding on the virtues of equality. She should have been doing that from the start. Those thoughts never occur to her. All of the options she mulls over involve backtracking over what (very) little progress she has made on the front of elven rights, before deciding that's too little and only an act of mass murder will suffice to show that she's not weak. If that isn't posturing, I don't know what is.
 
And maybe if she had actually given it some thought, she might have realized she was walking into a trap before that trap was sprung, and wouldn't have gotten hundreds of soldiers killed as well. Instead, she forced her march like a headstrong child, leaving her army exhausted when Gaspard descended upon them, leaving them slaughtered.

Missing the point. A bit of coin might have bought their silence up until Gaspard comes around again to offer more. Alternatively, they might have used her attempted bribery against her if Gaspard wanted them too. If Celene wanted to make the problem go away, keep Gaspard from ever attacking her on that front ever again, she needed more than a temporary reprieve that could easily backfire, she needed something that would silence the voices claiming she was soft on elves. Call it posturing if you like, but it's a much more effective solution than such stop gaps at that point.

Her errors on the field and inability to anticipate Gaspard's attack have more to due with her profound lack of military experience than her political agenda. As I mentioned previously: she evaluated the situation politically, rather soundly at that, but not militarily.

[Former_Fiend]

Maybe I am naive, but to me, this just all sounds like a bunch of excuses. Celene is the Empress of Orlais. She is the most powerful person in Thedas. Can she do anything she wants? No. But she can do more than what she's done. 

 

If you expect me to believe that the ruler of Ferelden can promote an elf into the Bannorn, but the Empress of Orlais can't get one elf into an university, then I don't know what words to use to describe that Empress other than weak and ineffectual. 

[Heimdall]

Maybe I am naive, but to me, this just all sounds like a bunch of excuses. Celene is the Empress of Orlais. She is the most powerful person in Thedas. Can she do anything she wants? No. But she can do more than what she's done.

If you expect me to believe that the ruler of Ferelden can promote an elf into the Bannorn, but the Empress of Orlais can't get one elf into an university, then I don't know what words to use to describe that Empress other than weak and ineffectual.

Um, she succeeded in opening the university to elves, so I'm not sure what you're on about there.

If it sounds like an excuse, that's because it's a genuine excuse. Celene's rule is absolute only in theory. She needs the support of the nobles and the good will of the common people if she is to be effective. She's no different from any other ruler in that respect. Her position isn't unlike that of Justinia V, she can't defy centuries of tradition and prejudice unless she's careful and smart about it. Trying to force it from the top down is neither careful nor smart when almost everyone else disagrees with you.

EDIT: As for Ferelden's Bann, according to the wiki, the elven Bann of the alienage is killed by a bigoted mob several years later in all but one case, where he resigns the title and leaves the country. And there is no new Bann appointed.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Um, she succeeded in opening the university to elves, so I'm not sure what you're on about there.

If it sounds like an excuse, that's because it's a genuine excuse. Celene's rule is absolute only in theory. She needs the support of the nobles and the good will of the common people if she is to be effective. She's no different from any other ruler in that respect. Her position isn't unlike that of Justinia V, she can't defy centuries of tradition and prejudice unless she's careful and smart about it. Trying to force it from the top down is neither careful nor smart when almost everyone else disagrees with you.

Behlen? thats why i respect guy he isn't talking pretty he is doing things and no one can stop him

[Gregolian]

Maybe I am naive, but to me, this just all sounds like a bunch of excuses. Celene is the Empress of Orlais. She is the most powerful person in Thedas. Can she do anything she wants? No. But she can do more than what she's done. 

 

If you expect me to believe that the ruler of Ferelden can promote an elf into the Bannorn, but the Empress of Orlais can't get one elf into an university, then I don't know what words to use to describe that Empress other than weak and ineffectual. 

Years of different cultures.  Fereldan is a much more, well, "practical" society and have only recently thrown off being subserveant to another culture so you would think at least some of them are more willing to give elves a chance.

 

Orlais has been the top of the world in Thedas for what seems like forever, they threw off the Tevinter's, beaten back Blights (****, the rift is RIGHT near Val Royeaux), and they have conquered Fereldan and it sounds like in the past have beaten Antiva and Nevara in wars.  They are to the world of Thedas what Rome was prior to it's fall.

[TheTurtle]

Maybe I am naive, but to me, this just all sounds like a bunch of excuses. Celene is the Empress of Orlais. She is the most powerful person in Thedas. Can she do anything she wants? No. But she can do more than what she's done. 
 
If you expect me to believe that the ruler of Ferelden can promote an elf into the Bannorn, but the Empress of Orlais can't get one elf into an university, then I don't know what words to use to describe that Empress other than weak and ineffectual.

Ferelden is completely different from Orlais in the matter of hierarchy and succession.

[Heimdall]

Behlen? thats why i respect guy he isn't talking pretty he is doing things and no one can stop him

Yeah, but he's smart and performs legion back room deals to maintain his power. Not to mention, I doubt any deshyr would risk raising a hand against a king selected by a Paragon nor be foolish enough to start a civil war with Orzammar's precarious position. He has shields Celene lacks.

[Heimdall]

Ferelden is completely different from Orlais in the matter of hierarchy and succession.

And all those elven banns die

[Former_Fiend]

Behlen? thats why i respect guy he isn't talking pretty he is doing things and no one can stop him

 

It's not often I find myself agreeing with TheKomandorShepard, but this is one of those times. Bhelen is a ruthless individual, a backstabber, and potentially a murderer, but he forced change in a society where tradition was far more firmly rooted than Orlais, fought against prejudices much more intense than what humans have for elves, and it worked. 

 

Bhelen is the measuring stick when it comes to ruthless leaders in Thedas. If they can't live up to his results, then I feel justified in calling them inadequate

 

Ferelden is completely different from Orlais in the matter of hierarchy and succession.

 

In Ferelden, power rises from the commoners, up through the nobility, and finally to the monarchy. The Monarchy has less power in Ferelden than the Emperor has in Orlais.

.

[MisterJB]

I think its more about how abusing it for murder is an initiation ritual.

Those are murders commited under duress. The motto of the Chevaliers is "death before dishonor" so, there is a very good chance they'd be killed if they failed their initiation. And even if they weren't, they'd still be expelled in which case, death would be preferable.

[Mistic]

That wouldn't have worked at all. Her position was weakened because she was accused of being too soft on elves. That would have made her position worse because she'd be proving her detractors right. Her mistake was marching her army to Halamshiral fast enough to tire them out, but Gaspard's trap was effective because he knew that politically she'd have no choice but to go through with it.

 

No, that wasn't her mistake. The mistake was going herself.

 

We can talk about ethics in theory, but we do know that Celene's move was a huge mistake in reality because it put her in the spot Gaspard wanted. So yes, she had choices. She could have gone with a large army or send one of her generals. Oh, that would have made her look weak. Better that than another body in Gaspard's count. Or she could have let Birala carry out her plan. Oh, yes, many would have criticised her and she would have lost a lot of support, but again, it's much, much, much better than Gaspard cutting off her head.

 

Because we shouldn't forget that she survived because of the Eluvians. Gaspard and his soldiers reached the very Dalish camp, so even her almost miraculous escape before would have been for naught had the Dalish not been playing with the Eluvians.

[Cobra's_back]

No, that wasn't her mistake. The mistake was going herself.

 

We can talk about ethics in theory, but we do know that Celene's move was a huge mistake in reality because it put her in the spot Gaspard wanted. So yes, she had choices. She could have gone with a large army or send one of her generals. Oh, that would have made her look weak. Better that than another body in Gaspard's count. Or she could have let Birala carry out her plan. Oh, yes, many would have criticised her and she would have lost a lot of support, but again, it's much, much, much better than Gaspard cutting off her head.

 

Because we shouldn't forget that she survived because of the Eluvians. Gaspard and his soldiers reached the very Dalish camp, so even her almost miraculous escape before would have been for naught had the Dalish not been playing with the Eluvians.

 

So very true. Her going there didn't make any sense. Should have sent someone else or let Briala's plan work. Both were great options. She took the worst.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think it was important for her to be seen doing it herself. If she had anticipated the attack, she could have still done so while taking precautions against an ambush.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yeah, but he's smart and performs legion back room deals to maintain his power. Not to mention, I doubt any deshyr would risk raising a hand against a king selected by a Paragon nor be foolish enough to start a civil war with Orzammar's precarious position. He has shields Celene lacks.

He had opposition he dealt with them not mention that the warden himself can tell that it is their decision not paragon. Behlen was smart yes but his brain gave him that sheild celene only talks pretty but she is lap dog of orlesian society and will please them when she will feel in danger and as this is orlais and corrupted society the game will last after her death and she won't change anything...

[Former_Fiend]

And all those elven banns die

 

You can't make an omelette without killing a few elven banns.

 

There's always going to be opposition to progress. That doesn't mean you stop fighting for it and it's not an excuse not to take the first step. 

 

My problem is that the steps Celene were taking were little more than tossing scraps to a starving dog. She should have been much more aggressive in spreading the message and perception of elven equality. At best, she was overly cautious, and because of that caution, any attempts at elven equality in Orlais, short of Briala actually winning, have been set back centuries.

[TheTurtle]

It's not often I find myself agreeing with TheKomandorShepard, but this is one of those times. Bhelen is a ruthless individual, a backstabber, and potentially a murderer, but he forced change in a society where tradition was far more firmly rooted than Orlais, fought against prejudices much more intense than what humans have for elves, and it worked. 
 
Bhelen is the measuring stick when it comes to ruthless leaders in Thedas. If they can't live up to his results, then I feel justified in calling them inadequate
 

 Th
In Ferelden, power rises from the commoners, up through the nobility, and finally to the monarchy. The Monarchy has less power in Ferelden than the Emperor has in Orlais.
.

That's what I'm saying though Ferelden is a monarchy they get their power through bloodlines and peoples places in society are set. Orlais is a place where you get power through deceit and being good at the Game. I would argue the Monarchy has more power, because the power is absolute. The Emperor on the other hand only has power if they can play the game if they can't there is always someone waiting in the wings to swoop in and take control.

[Former_Fiend]

I swear, Celene may as well be the proprietor of a seamstress shop for all the effective authority her supporters attribute her with.

[Heimdall]

He had opposition he dealt with them not mention that the warden himself can tell that it is their decision not paragon. Behlen was smart yes but his brain gave him that sheild celene only talks pretty but she is lap dog of orlesian society and will please them when she will feel in danger and as this is orlais and corrupted society the game will last after her death and she won't change anything...

That he managed such changes speaks more to the authority of Orzammar's kingship than Celene's weakness. The dwarves can ill afford a schism with their precarious position and they all know it.

Celene doesn't have the luxury of an existential threat reinforcing her rule. The game will always continue, but that doesn't mean nothing can change.

[TheKomandorShepard]

That he managed such changes speaks more to the authority of Orzammar's kingship than Celene's weakness. The dwarves can ill afford a schism with their precarious position and they all know it.

Celene doesn't have the luxury of an existential threat reinforcing her rule. The game will always continue, but that doesn't mean nothing can change.

He managed go against their own society (that was lawful stupid and that says a lot) and he won. He took control over not society over him like in Celene case. As i said celene may think that she is master but she is puppet in orlesian system and she will be until she die.Yes that mean nothing won't change as long system will be nothing more than corruption nothing will change...  Behlen also had to take down such system by removing congress...

[Heimdall]

You can't make an omelette without killing a few elven banns.
 
There's always going to be opposition to progress. That doesn't mean you stop fighting for it and it's not an excuse not to take the first step. 
 
My problem is that the steps Celene were taking were little more than tossing scraps to a starving dog. She should have been much more aggressive in spreading the message and perception of elven equality. At best, she was overly cautious, and because of that caution, any attempts at elven equality in Orlais, short of Briala actually winning, have been set back centuries.

The dead elven banns only reinforce how futile the gesture was. They didn't achieve anything and its noted in some epilogue that no replacement was ever appointed. So much for Ferelden royal authority. It didn't achieve anything unless you like pointless gestures.

She's taking those first steps. She's easing taxes on elven merchants. She's lifting bans on elven admittance to the university. You're not talking about first steps. You're talking about jumping straight to the finish line and somehow expecting better results.

[Former_Fiend]

I think it was important for her to be seen doing it herself. If she had anticipated the attack, she could have still done so while taking precautions against an ambush.

 

It was also important that she not end up as a severed head on a pike, and it was sheer dumb luck that she managed to avoid that fate.

 

She road with her army for vanity, pure and simple. She wanted to look strong more than she wanted to actually be an effective leader.

[Heimdall]

He managed go against their own society (that was lawful stupid and that says a lot) and he won. He took control over not society over him like in Celene case. As i said celene may think that she is master but she is puppet in orlesian system and she will be until she die.Yes that mean nothing won't change as long system will be nothing more than corruption nothing will change...  Behlen also had to take down such system by removing congress...

Can I just tell you again that no deshyr would dare revolt against the King of Orzammar? His society is what makes his changes possible. Celene does not have that luxury. Celene is constrained by the realities of her rule. That doesn't make her a puppet. That makes her realistic.

[Heimdall]

It was also important that she not end up as a severed head on a pike, and it was sheer dumb luck that she managed to avoid that fate.
 
She road with her army for vanity, pure and simple. She wanted to look strong more than she wanted to actually be an effective leader.

She needed to look strong to be an effective leader. They aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, they are often so closely intertwined they cannot be separated. A well publicized gesture of strength can end one rebellion and stop a hundred other from ever coming into being.

You need to come to terms with the idea that appearances are necessary, and potentially a powerful weapon, not just an ego trip.

[Former_Fiend]

Can I just tell you again that no deshyr would dare revolt against the King of Orzammar? His society is what makes his changes possible. Celene does not have that luxury. Celene is constrained by the realities of her rule. That doesn't make her a puppet. That makes her realistic.

 

They wouldn't rebel, but they'd have him killed in his sleep without a second thought.

 

That Bhelen does what he does inspite of that risk makes him brave; that he takes steps to prevent it while still moving forward with his own agenda makes him smart, and that he is able to survive in a society that has no problem with assassination despite his unpopular reforms makes him strong. 

 

Celene may be realistic, but that's only because weak and ineffectual rulers are hardly uncommon. That doesn't change the fact that they're weak an ineffectual.

[TheTurtle]

It was also important that she not end up as a severed head on a pike, and it was sheer dumb luck that she managed to avoid that fate.

She road with her army for vanity, pure and simple. She wanted to look strong more than she wanted to actually be an effective leader.

Many Kings rode with their armies and fought their own battles it was a sign of power as well as respect.Hell even Queen Elizabeth faced the Spanish Armada.