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[Heimdall]

I swear, Celene may as well be the proprietor of a seamstress shop for all the effective authority her supporters attribute her with.

All rulers are constrained by reality. Celene has power, and also the wisdom not to invite open rebellion with it over the elven issue by forcing drastic changes.

[Former_Fiend]

She needed to look strong to be an effective leader. They aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, they are often so closely intertwined they cannot be separated. A well publicized gesture of strength can end one rebellion and stop a hundred other from ever coming into being.

You need to come to terms with the idea that appearances are necessary, and potentially a powerful weapon, not just an ego trip.

 

You need to actually be strong to be an effective leader. Appearing strong while actually being weak is only going to make you vulnerable, because you're going to do something foolhardy and get yourself killed.

 

If Celene wanted to appear strong, she wouldn't have marched. That doesn't tell the nobles that she's strong. That tells Gaspard that he can manipulate her into doing exactly what he wants her to do.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Can I just tell you again that no deshyr would dare revolt against the King of Orzammar? His society is what makes his changes possible. Celene does not have that luxury. Celene is constrained by the realities of her rule. That doesn't make her a puppet. That makes her realistic.

LoL they would pretty much reason why he killed harowmmont family not mention that harowmmont face rebelion.Behlen was strong leader and in fanct his society was before lawful stupid as i said were against changes even if that meant suicide and yet behlen managed to do that even many didn't liked his decision.As i said Celene never will be more than puppet in her society she is weak and bow to other not others to her.That makes her weak not realistic or not...

 

As i said puppet won't change anything because all it will do is please current society and when society will threaten her with finger she will quickly jump to do what they want.

[Former_Fiend]

All rulers are constrained by reality. Celene has power, and also the wisdom not to invite open rebellion with it over the elven issue by forcing drastic changes.

 

She invites open rebellion just by existing. She may as well invite it over a cause that actually matters.

[Heimdall]

They wouldn't rebel, but they'd have him killed in his sleep without a second thought.
 
That Bhelen does what he does inspite of that risk makes him brave; that he takes steps to prevent it while still moving forward with his own agenda makes him smart, and that he is able to survive in a society that has no problem with assassination despite his unpopular reforms makes him strong. 
 
Celene may be realistic, but that's only because weak and ineffectual rulers are hardly uncommon. That doesn't change the fact that they're weak an ineffectual.

Do you think nobody has tried? Or will continue to try until they succeed? If all Celene had to worry about were assassin's that would be much easier. She could double her guard and continue on. She has to deal with armies and a rival that doesn't mind pitting the whole of Orlais into civil war to supplant her.

Bhelen is strong. I have no doubt. I also have no doubt that his rule would be much more cautious if he faced the risk of open rebellion. As it stands, I don't consider the comparison of much worth. Bhelen works within the realistic bounds of his rule and Celene works in hers. That doesn't make him stronger. These are two different societies.

How again is Celene is ineffectual? She's done more for the lot of elves in her country over the decades than any other ruler of Orlais, perhaps all of Thedas, has in centuries. She's maintained peace in her kingdom for twenty years as she balanced rivals and championed education and the arts. Now, because she won't commit political suicide, you call her ineffectual?

[Heimdall]

You need to actually be strong to be an effective leader. Appearing strong while actually being weak is only going to make you vulnerable, because you're going to do something foolhardy and get yourself killed.
 
If Celene wanted to appear strong, she wouldn't have marched. That doesn't tell the nobles that she's strong. That tells Gaspard that he can manipulate her into doing exactly what he wants her to do.

She is strong. Gaspard and Briala both know she could crush him if she had all her support in Val Royeaux. However, just because you have strength doesn't mean people will remember you have the nerve to use it unless you remind them periodically. It's certainly hard for them to remember if you let a rebellion rage unchecked.

It tells the nobles she's willing to crush rebellion with a silverite fist. Politically, it's entirely sound. Militarily is another matter, I have already said she is deficient in that area.

[Former_Fiend]

It took twenty years of Celene's reign to get one elf into school for a month. Forgive me if I don't exactly see that as the pinnacle of progressive reform.

[Mistic]

Many Kings rode with their armies and fought their own battles it was a sign of power and respect.. Hell even Queen Elizabeth faced the Spanish Armada.

 

Although I agree with your point, Queen Elizabeth isn't a good example. All the battles of the Spanish Armada were on sea and Elizabeth wasn't in any of them. What she did was the famous speech at Tilbury, but it was done days after the Battle of Gravelines. Troops were waiting there in case the Spanish tried a landing from the Netherlands, but it never happened.

[Former_Fiend]

She is strong. Gaspard and Briala both know she could crush him if she had all her support in Val Royeaux. However, just because you have strength doesn't mean people will remember you have the nerve to use it unless you remind them periodically. It's certainly hard for them to remember if you let a rebellion rage unchecked.

It tells the nobles she's willing to crush rebellion with a silverite fist. Politically, it's entirely sound. Militarily is another matter, I have already said she is deficient in that area.

 

Sending a general in her place would have sent the same message. Still would have been a warcrime, but it wouldn't have been a suicidal one. 

[Heimdall]

She invites open rebellion just by existing. She may as well invite it over a cause that actually matters.

Oh yes, we're back to suicide again.

Just by existing, Celene represents the possibility for influence, power, and the threat of retribution. A talented ruler balances these things to maintain peace within the kingdom, as she did for twenty years.

[Former_Fiend]

Oh yes, we're back to suicide again.

Just by existing, Celene represents the possibility for influence, power, and the threat of retribution. A talented ruler balances these things to maintain peace within the kingdom, as she did for twenty years.

 

My point is that nothing Celene did prevented rebellion. Gaspard rebelled because he wanted power for himself. He was always going to do that. 

 

Celene spent twenty years balancing and appeasing when she should have been swaying public opinion around to her cause and working to prime society for change. Instead she made a few small, token efforts spread out throughout her reign all in an effort to prevent something that was inevitable.

[Heimdall]

Sending a general in her place would have sent the same message. Still would have been a warcrime, but it wouldn't have been a suicidal one.

No, it would not. The royal bloodline of Orlais is descended from a conquer. To send a lackey is not nearly as powerful a message as saying the descendant of Drakon is still willing to defend her land.

Putting down a group in open armed rebellion against the state is not a war crime by most standards I've heard of.

[Former_Fiend]

No, it would not. The royal bloodline of Orlais is descended from a conquer. To send a lackey is not nearly as powerful a message as saying the descendant of Drakon is still willing to defend her land.

Putting down a group in open armed rebellion against the state is not a war crime by most standards I've heard of.

 

Or it sends the message that all Gaspard has to do is push the right button and she'll jump. There's the reality, and then there's the lie that gets used to dress it up.

 

And it isn't, providing each of the three thousand people she slaughtered and burned in their homes actually were in open rebellion and not, you know, neighbors of people who were in open rebellion, or children of people who were in open rebellion. You know, people who are unlucky enough not to have a choice in where to live because they're forced into segregated slums and thus can't get away from those who are in open rebellion.

[Heimdall]

My point is that nothing Celene did prevented rebellion. Gaspard rebelled because he wanted power for himself. He was always going to do that. 
 
Celene spent twenty years balancing and appeasing when she should have been swaying public opinion around to her cause and working to prime society for change. Instead she made a few small, token efforts spread out throughout her reign all in an effort to prevent something that was inevitable.

So? That just means the results were outside her control. Her actions remain politically sound. Gaspard didn't give a damn about the elves. He took it up only to gather followers. HE was always going to be against her. Celene knew that. Her gesture at Halamshiral was not intended for him. It was intended for those who would follow him, hoping to discourage him. We can't judge whether she was successful, but I imagine more than a few lords were seeing Gaspard more sympathetically until she set off for Halamshiral.

And yet her efforts maintained peace for twenty years. You cannot cast that aside just because one man was always going to rebel.

[Former_Fiend]

So? That just means the results were outside her control. Her actions remain politically sound. Gaspard didn't give a damn about the elves. He took it up only to gather followers. HE was always going to be against her. Celene knew that. Her gesture at Halamshiral was not intended for him. It was intended for those who would follow him, hoping to discourage him. We can't judge whether she was successful, but I imagine more than a few lords were seeing Gaspard more sympathetically until she set off for Halamshiral.

And yet her efforts maintained peace for twenty years. You cannot cast that aside just because one man was always going to rebel.

 

I'm not saying Gaspard cared about the elves; he's rebelling because he's a powerhungry war monger. My point is that rebellion was going to happen eventually, anyway. It would have been better had it happened to effect significant social change rather than over one man's lust for power and one woman's strangle hold on her own.

 

And her reign was peaceful for twenty years partly in spite of her; if she had her way she would have gone to war with Nevarra a decade ago; it was only her poor timing in proposing to Cailen after he was married that prevented that, as she was unwilling to risk it without adding Ferelden's military to her own. Which, again, goes to my point; she's unwilling to take any significant risk.

 

Come to think of it, and this is entirely off topic, but I'm wondering why she never thought of proposing marriage to Maric instead of waiting for Cailen.

[Heimdall]

Or it sends the message that all Gaspard has to do is push the right button and she'll jump. There's the reality, and then there's the lie that gets used to dress it up.
 
And it isn't, providing each of the three thousand people she slaughtered and burned in their homes actually were in open rebellion and not, you know, neighbors of people who were in open rebellion, or children of people who were in open rebellion. You know, people who are unlucky enough not to have a choice in where to live because they're forced into segregated slums and thus can't get away from those who are in open rebellion.

Please, that doesn't even make sense. Consider, if Celene had returned without incident Gaspard would have lost the support he'd gained from the rumors. His talk of her being soft on elves would be rendered ineffectual and hshe would have reclaimed support. Unless responding to another person's actions automatically makes you a puppet, there's nothing about going to Halamshiral to put down a rebellion, which had to be done eventually anyway, that says Gaspard necessarily manipulated Celene. It presupposes that everyone knows Gaspard wanted her to go to Halamshiral, which was only apparent after the trap was sprung.

Not seeing the trap, as I've said, has more to do with her military inexperience than anything else.

As I recall, she rode through the streets and tried the curb the worst the destruction. Go take a look at medieval history. When you head an army, the army expected to take what they like when they got there as payment for their services. Frankly, its the inevitable consequence of attacking any city with an army. I wouldn't lay all that at Celene's feet as a war crime.

[The Elder King]

Probably becuase Maric wouldn't have been dumb enough to accept to put Ferelden after Orlesian control right after it was liberated just for being the empress of Orlais' consort.

[Dean_the_Young]

Which is an entirely informal "initiation" and is more a result of society than a symptom of the Chevaliers themselves.

 

The fact that the Chevaliers practice the murder of innocents as an initiation ritual in an informal manner is hardly a mitigating factor. If anything, it's worse- it means they don't have to, but choose to anyway.

 

I'm not aware of any other part of Orleans society that does the same practice, but I don't see how it would mitigate it either. If all the Orlais military conducting a murder ritual, it would mean the entire Orlais military is a pack of murderers, not that the Chevaliers don't have an abhorrent society that expects them to murder the very same people they nominally protect.

 

Well, if the Chevaliers actually existed to protect anything in the first place.

[Former_Fiend]

Probably becuase Maric wouldn't have been dumb enough to accept to put Ferelden after Orlesian control right after it was liberated just for being the empress of Orlais' consort.

 

Probably not. I'm just wondering if she ever considered it.

 

Seems to me it would have been cleaner than trying to convince Cailen to divorce the daughter of the man who considers the whole of Orlais his arch enemy. 

[The Elder King]

The fact that the medieval (or even older) armies took what that they want when on war and they invade an army doesn't mean they're not committing war crimes by modern standards. Which didn't exist in the past, and almost surely don't exist in Thedas, but That's another matter. I don't think Former Friend was judging want the Orlesians did at Halamshiral by medieval standards.

[Heimdall]

I'm not saying Gaspard cared about the elves; he's rebelling because he's a powerhungry war monger. My point is that rebellion was going to happen eventually, anyway. It would have been better had it happened to effect significant social change rather than over one man's lust for power and one woman's strangle hold on her own.
 
And her reign was peaceful for twenty years partly in spite of her; if she had her way she would have gone to war with Nevarra a decade ago; it was only her poor timing in proposing to Cailen after he was married that prevented that, as she was unwilling to risk it without adding Ferelden's military to her own. Which, again, goes to my point; she's unwilling to take any significant risk.
 
Come to think of it, and this is entirely off topic, but I'm wondering why she never thought of proposing marriage to Maric instead of waiting for Cailen.

Wouldn't it have been better to effect social change without killing hundreds of thousands in civil war? That was Celene's goal. She never considered rebellion inevitable and she couldn't see the future to know it would happen. She thought she could deny Gaspard support and defang him. For awhile, she was apparently doing a good job of it.

As I recall, she wanted Ferelden's military force to deter Nevarra from attempting invasion, not to conquer it.

[The Elder King]

Probably not. I'm just wondering if she ever considered it.
 
Seems to me it would have been cleaner than trying to convince Cailen to divorce the daughter of the man who considers the whole of Orlais his arch enemy.

I agree that it'd have been difficult, but I think it was probably easier than trying to convince Maric. The latter saw directly what the Orlesians did during the occupation and lost him mother to them; Celene probably considered that it'd have been impossible to convince Maric, and I'd agree.

[Former_Fiend]

Please, that doesn't even make sense. Consider, if Celene had returned without incident Gaspard would have lost the support he'd gained from the rumors. His talk of her being soft on elves would be rendered ineffectual and hshe would have reclaimed support. Unless responding to another person's actions automatically makes you a puppet, there's nothing about going to Halamshiral to put down a rebellion, which had to be done eventually anyway, that says Gaspard necessarily manipulated Celene. It presupposes that everyone knows Gaspard wanted her to go to Halamshiral, which was only apparent after the trap was sprung.

Not seeing the trap, as I've said, has more to do with her military inexperience than anything else.

As I recall, she rode through the streets and tried the curb the worst the destruction. Go take a look at medieval history. When you head an army, the army expected to take what they like when they got there as payment for their services. Frankly, its the inevitable consequence of attacking any city with an army. I wouldn't lay all that at Celene's feet as a war crime.

 

The issue wasn't just that she didn't see the ambush, but that she didn't think Gaspard was capable of it. For all her fear of rebellion, she actually seems to have a hard time wrapping her head around the idea of people actually rebelling against their rulers. Earlier in the book she reflected on Loghain's attempted coup as if it had to come from a completely alien mentality. Her underestimation of the lengths some people will go to is a political failing as much as it is a military one. 

[leaguer of one]

Averting civil war mostly

It would just turn the civil war into a cold war.

[leaguer of one]

Yeah because Orlais is going now in the right direction 

Blame Gaspard for that. Even he in the end said he made a mistake.