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[Former_Fiend]

Wouldn't it have been better to effect social change without killing hundreds of thousands in civil war? That was Celene's goal. She never considered rebellion inevitable and she couldn't see the future to know it would happen. She thought she could deny Gaspard support and defang him. For awhile, she was apparently doing a good job of it.

As I recall, she wanted Ferelden's military force to deter Nevarra from attempting invasion, not to conquer it.

 

It would have been better, but that's not always possible. At any rate, I still say her efforts on that front were tantamount to giving a man dying of hydration a thimble of water. 

 

And she specifically wanted to "drive Nevarra back, and give Tevinter pause." So while she didn't want to conquer Nevarra, she was planning active military action against them, likely as a demonstration to Tevinter to deter them from getting any ideas.

[Heimdall]

It took twenty years of Celene's reign to get one elf into school for a month. Forgive me if I don't exactly see that as the pinnacle of progressive reform.

And that alone cost her. It should tell you what she's up against, not condemn her as a coward.

I don't see the rest of Thedas doing any better

[Former_Fiend]

And that alone cost her. It should tell you what she's up against, not condemn her as a coward.

I don't see the rest of Thedas doing any better

 

Well, the qunari have complete racial equality.

 

Not that they don't have their own failings, of course. But this isn't one of them.

[leaguer of one]

The issue wasn't just that she didn't see the ambush, but that she didn't think Gaspard was capable of it. For all her fear of rebellion, she actually seems to have a hard time wrapping her head around the idea of people actually rebelling against their rulers. Earlier in the book she reflected on Loghain's attempted coup as if it had to come from a completely alien mentality. Her underestimation of the lengths some people will go to is a political failing as much as it is a military one. 

Wrong concept. Her thoughts on Loghain that it made no sense to start a rebellion at the time of a blight when the country is about to be eaten up. And it's not that she did not think a rebellion would happen. It's that she was overconfident with her ability in the game. Gaspard knows the Celene has to move according to the Orlesian game to keep her power and used it to manipulate her to a field he had the advantage.

[leaguer of one]

Well, the qunari have complete racial equality.

 

Not that they don't have their own failings, of course. But this isn't one of them.

The qunari did that by sword point. So are you saying she for people at the paint of death to treat elves as equals?

[leaguer of one]

Or it sends the message that all Gaspard has to do is push the right button and she'll jump. There's the reality, and then there's the lie that gets used to dress it up.

 

And it isn't, providing each of the three thousand people she slaughtered and burned in their homes actually were in open rebellion and not, you know, neighbors of people who were in open rebellion, or children of people who were in open rebellion. You know, people who are unlucky enough not to have a choice in where to live because they're forced into segregated slums and thus can't get away from those who are in open rebellion.

You do know they not only had the choice to leave but elves were flocking to the dales during the rebellion, right?

[Former_Fiend]

The qunari did that by sword point. So are you saying she for people at the paint of death to treat elves as equals?

 

Qunari didn't hold a sword to the throats of the elves of Kirkwall, and they flocked to them in droves. 

 

But no, I'm not saying Celene should follow the qunari model.

 

Ideally, Celene should be waging a war to win the hearts and minds of Orlais towards the elves favor. She should be hiring minstrils to sing elven songs, she should be hiring artists to paint elves in heroic stature, she should be hiring scholars to publish works on elven equality, and she should be hiring playwrights to cast elves as heroes. She should be fanning the flames of elven sympathy for years before she started making bigger decisions.

 

But at the end of the day when it comes to a desire for equality, one should always be ready and willing to fight for it, because once you get it, the day will come when you're forced to fight to defend it.

[Heimdall]

It would have been better, but that's not always possible. At any rate, I still say her efforts on that front were tantamount to giving a man dying of hydration a thimble of water. 
 
And she specifically wanted to "drive Nevarra back, and give Tevinter pause." So while she didn't want to conquer Nevarra, she was planning active military action against them, likely as a demonstration to Tevinter to deter them from getting any ideas.

And by what ground do have to say it was impossible? And if it did come to civil war? How many nobles do you think would marshal their soldiers to fight for elven rights? Celene would lose that war. She wouldn't have a chance. And then, she would be dead. The elves would be in same place or worse, no doubt with many dead due to riots. As I keep saying, martyrdom sounds ennobling, but its rarely effective.

She's talking about the region of northern Orlais that was captured by Nevarra in 8:70 Blessed. Nevarra has more recently been snatching up territory in the Free Marches. Nevarra's the rising expansionist power amongst Orlais' neighbors and it has a taste for invading Orlesian territory. Driving them out of Orlais and showing them Orlais is still not to be trifled with secures Orlais. It's not a fight she started. Celene isn't an idiot. If there's one thing she and Gaspard would agree on, it's that the loss of Ferelden made Orlais look weak militarily. Securing their own borders with the help of a native resistance that Orlais has been encouraging ever since the original conquest is an act of security. If anything, it's too Celene's credit that she isn't blindly pacifistic.

[leaguer of one]

Qunari didn't hold a sword to the throats of the elves of Kirkwall, and they flocked to them in droves. 

 

But no, I'm not saying Celene should follow the qunari model.

 

Ideally, Celene should be waging a war to win the hearts and minds of Orlais towards the elves favor. She should be hiring minstrils to sing elven songs, she should be hiring artists to paint elves in heroic stature, she should be hiring scholars to publish works on elven equality, and she should be hiring playwrights to cast elves as heroes. She should be fanning the flames of elven sympathy for years before she started making bigger decisions.

 

But at the end of the day when it comes to a desire for equality, one should always be ready and willing to fight for it, because once you get it, the day will come when you're forced to fight to defend it.

1. But the human , who were the majority in numbers, did not. The issue of equality is because of the humans.

 

2. And she was. It takes years to do that. Even civil rights took years for use to get it right and it's still not finished. Racial equality takes more then a generation to be socially accepted. No way it can happen in 20 years.

[Former_Fiend]

I'm not saying striking back against Nevarra is a bad idea from her perspective. If anything I'd criticize her for not doing it anyway instead of waiting to bring Ferelden into the fold and seemingly abandoning the prospect once it became clear that wasn't going to happen.

 

That being said, I'm personally rooting for Nevarra in that fight. 

[Heimdall]

Qunari didn't hold a sword to the throats of the elves of Kirkwall, and they flocked to them in droves.

But no, I'm not saying Celene should follow the qunari model.

Ideally, Celene should be waging a war to win the hearts and minds of Orlais towards the elves favor. She should be hiring minstrils to sing elven songs, she should be hiring artists to paint elves in heroic stature, she should be hiring scholars to publish works on elven equality, and she should be hiring playwrights to cast elves as heroes. She should be fanning the flames of elven sympathy for years before she started making bigger decisions.

But at the end of the day when it comes to a desire for equality, one should always be ready and willing to fight for it, because once you get it, the day will come when you're forced to fight to defend it.

I doubt the success of such a PR campaign. Minstrels and artists need to make a living. There needs to be a market for such works before they can take hold. And if Celene's the only one funding them it'd only have the same effect in turning the people against her as her current efforts. That's not to start on the backlash if she erected a heroic statue of Shartan, still blacklisted by most Andrastrians. Celene's strategy is to open doors for elves. Let them succeed at business, let them develop revolutionary ideas at the university, let them prove their merit to the people. She knows that societal reform works best when you can convince people at the ground level with day to day proof instead of just rhetoric. If this is the response to rumors, what do you think the response to giant statues would be?

For what its worth, I think Celene would be willing to fight for it if she thought she could win. She's smart enough to know that no other noble would stick their neck out with her for the sake of elven rights. She picks her battles.

[Dean_the_Young]

Qunari didn't hold a sword to the throats of the elves of Kirkwall, and they flocked to them in droves. 

 

But no, I'm not saying Celene should follow the qunari model.

 

Ideally, Celene should be waging a war to win the hearts and minds of Orlais towards the elves favor. She should be hiring minstrils to sing elven songs, she should be hiring artists to paint elves in heroic stature, she should be hiring scholars to publish works on elven equality, and she should be hiring playwrights to cast elves as heroes. She should be fanning the flames of elven sympathy for years before she started making bigger decisions.

 

You know, when Hollywood tries that people just change the channel. I'm struggling to think of any major social reform movement that succeeded via propoganda, and I can't think of any. It puts the cart before the horse- elves need to be sympathetic before people will find them sympathetic in art and media. To take a real world equivalent, the depiction of gays and lesbians in media has increased in the last several years... as a reaction to the increased acceptance and support for homosexuals. Not as the cause.

 

I don't have any objective statistic, but from personal experience I've seen plenty of people simply dismiss and disregard cultural propoganda that they don't agree with. Whether dismissing it as rightwing conservative christian Fox News, Evil Liberals, Western Crusader Degredation, backwards superstition... unlike the common conceit of conspiracy theorists, people don't base their cultural viewpoints around propoganda campaigns..

 

 

 

But at the end of the day when it comes to a desire for equality, one should always be ready and willing to fight for it, because once you get it, the day will come when you're forced to fight to defend it.

 

Sure. Of course, the next morning after you may find that in fighting for equality you left behind a razed home and lost it to bloody animosity.

 

You can beat people up to make them leave you alone, but you can't beat them up to make them accept you amongst them. Fighting for independence has a military solution, but fighting for acceptance does not.

[Former_Fiend]

It's her job to win those nobles over, or eliminate them from the equation. Tie their fortunes into those of the elves, and if you can't do that, tie the fortunes of the commoners into those of the elves; you don't need the nobles, you need their armies. Work to take those armies from them.

[Dean_the_Young]

It's her job to win those nobles over, or eliminate them from the equation.

 

If this were an ideological theocracy, perhaps.

 

Is this an ideological theocracy?

[leaguer of one]

It's her job to win those nobles over, or eliminate them from the equation. Tie their fortunes into those of the elves, and if you can't do that, tie the fortunes of the commoners into those of the elves; you don't need the nobles, you need their armies. Work to take those armies from them.

That's not how a monarchy works. She can't kill off all the noble that disagree with her. That Ironically would start a civil war.

[wright1978]

You need to actually be strong to be an effective leader. Appearing strong while actually being weak is only going to make you vulnerable, because you're going to do something foolhardy and get yourself killed.
 
If Celene wanted to appear strong, she wouldn't have marched. That doesn't tell the nobles that she's strong. That tells Gaspard that he can manipulate her into doing exactly what he wants her to do.

Agree completely she comes across as weak.

[leaguer of one]

If this were an ideological theocracy, perhaps.

 

Is this an ideological theocracy?

It use to be.

[Former_Fiend]

That's not how a monarchy works. She can't kill off all the noble that disagree with her. That Ironically would start a civil war.

 

Only if she's obvious about it.

 

Though I suppose after enough nobles have unfortunate hunting accidents and are replaced by elven sympathizers, people would start to get suspicious.

[leaguer of one]

Agree completely she comes across as weak.

What? Her showing the noble that she bends to the elves will some how makes her look strong?

[Former_Fiend]

What? Her showing the noble that she bends to the elves will some how makes her look strong?

 

As opposed of showing the nobles that she'll bend over for them?

[leaguer of one]

 

 

Though I suppose after enough nobles have unfortunate hunting accidents and are replaced by elven sympathizers, people would start to get suspicious.

Exactly. It would still end in a civil war. Forced social reform always leads to more conflict. And Gaspard was going to do that by applying what he wanted.

Celene was trying to do social reform with the least casualties as possible and that takes time. Say she messed up because she could not do these social changes in 20 years is bases less. Even we could not do that in 20 years.

[TheKomandorShepard]

What? Her showing the noble that she bends to the elves will some how makes her look strong?

Well then she showed nobles that she bends to them and they are in control not she.She reminds me Dumar who feared do crap because of nobility wouldn't like that pretty much where his fear lead him or rather his head...

[Former_Fiend]

Exactly. It would still end in a civil war. Forced social reform always leads to more conflict. And Gaspard was going to do that by applying what he wanted.

Celene was trying to do social reform with the least casualties as possible and that takes time. Say she messed up because she could not do these social changes in 20 years is bases less. Even we could not do that in 20 years.

 

"The nobility" isn't a all powerful entity that the empress must quake in fear of. It's a collection of men and women that must be treated with on an individual basis. 

[leaguer of one]

As opposed of showing the nobles that she'll bend over for them?

Do you even know how a monarchy works? A king/emperor or Queen/Empress only is in power by the allowance of the nobility. Their power is based on how many nobles are on their side or the army that backs them. Celcene held power in Orlias through the manipulation of the nobility. She has to compromise with them to keep that power or they will turn against her. Each noble has their own private army and fighting men that support her own private army. If the nobility turn against her they can easily make an army that surpasses hers. Losing their support is the last thing she want because she loses her power over her empire if that happens.

[leaguer of one]

"The nobility" isn't a all powerful entity that the empress must quake in fear of. It's a collection of men and women that must be treated with on an individual basis. 

It not that they are all powerful. It that they are her only way to control her empire. The more that turn away from her the less power she has over her empire. She can't just do what she wants.