Selfish to a point. Celene had every intention of allowing Briala to simply flee to the Dalish, but she came back to her so what was she to do?
Err, not being even more of a jerk doesn't really get you points. I wouldn't recommend going back to a relationship with a person who had no problem lying to you for twenty years while saying they loved you and having at you every bloody night. Even if Celene's feelings are genuine, that doesn't make any of that go away.
If Briala can still trust Celene after that , she doesn't deserve anything else than contempt. 
Ah, yeah, no. As righteous as it would be, you can't expect a person to be that virtuous. Just put yourself in her shoes.
I wouldn't have murdered her parents in the first place.
I don't believe that they should get back together for a completely different reason: Briala completely betrayed Celene, not the other way around.
What people seem to forget is that Celene was sixteen when she had Briala's parents murdered, recently orphaned, and was not in love with Briala at this point, or at least had not been for a very long time.
Briala on the other hand, betrayed the woman she had "loved" for decades when she had promised to free her people, and genuinely planned to try to do so, deliberately made it so that the war in Orlais would be long and bloody, destroying everything Celene had worked for, all while being an adult, not a sixteen year old girl.
That was bloody harsh. Sure Celene never told Briala the truth about killing her parents, but Briala actively trying to draw out the war and destory everything Celene worked towards after Celene had tried her best to help the elves numerous times was just painful to read. No way should Celene ever forgive her for such betrayal.
I believe a sixteen year old is old enough to be held accountable for murder. Maybe you have a point, and Briala did betray Celene... but not before the latter did so and actively lied about it and manipulated her for two decades, up to the present.
I believe a sixteen year old is old enough to be held accountable for murder. Maybe you have a point, and Briala did betray Celene... but not before the latter did so and actively lied about it and manipulated her for two decades, up to the present.
It was clear that Celene regretted doing it, but as she said herself: had she not done so she would never have managed to rise to power, and she and her servants would likely have been killed anyway.
Remember that it is strongly implied that Briala's mother killed another elven servant so that Briala would gain the position of Celenes handmaiden in the first place. No one is an innocent if they are playing the game.
And Celene not telling Briala the truth was no more manipulative than Briala using her relationship with Celene to help the elves for decades.
And this is why I hate the Game in general, and have no respect for anyone involved.
It was clear that Celene regretted doing it, but as she said herself: had she not done so she would never have managed to rise to power, and she and her servants would likely have been killed anyway.
Remember that it strongly implied that Briala's mother killed another elven servant so that Briala would gain the position of Celenes handmaiden in the first place. No one is an innocent if they are playing the game.
And Celene not telling Briala the truth was no more manipulation than Briala using her relationship with Celene to help the elves for decades.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, except that I consider your last statement to be a false equivalency. There's a difference between being in a relationship with someone without telling them you did something extremely wrong to them long ago and simply taking advantage of your position to help your own at no expense for the one who keeps you in that position.
And this is why I hate the Game in general, and have no respect for anyone involved.
It's a stupid thing to call a game, but politics, even at their worst, are preferable to war.
People treating politics like a game inevitably leads to war.
Actually, Celene giving up the rule of Orlais is probably the only thing that would redeem her to Briala, and is actually a sort of fitting penance.
Celene killed Briala's parent's to prove herself in the Game and help secure her rule-- openly giving up the Game and her rule, especially if she doesn't particularly think Briala will come back to but wants to try anyways would be a very fitting step.
And she'd have to show that she's giving it up COMPLETELY. Like, moving to Ferelden (since that is the place Orlais looks upon with the most disdain) under a false non-noble identity completely.
And from a narrative perspective, it's a nice ending to tie things up with, just as having a 'tragic lovers' ending is a nice, solid ending.
Of course, Gaspard is not exactly someone I'd like to see on the throne, as much as I like the idea of saving tragic lesbians. Mayhaps if there was a third option/pro-elf Celene successor once you remove her from her own faction.
People treating politics like a game inevitably leads to war.
Not necessarily, although in some cases it may very much be that way. To Celene's credit, she managed to keep war to a minimum during her reign, in no small part due to her involvement in the Game.
Schemes and assassinations usually have much lower death rates than wars, while accomplishing pretty much the same. That makes them preferable in my eyes, especially when the world cannot afford to waste troops killing each other when there are demons pouring out of the sky.
And this is why I hate the Game in general, and have no respect for anyone involved.
I love it. Not that I personally would go near it with a barge pole, but it made for a fascinating read, and a war of intellect and wit is immensely more exciting and interesting in my mind than a war of blades.
I respect Celene because she is using the game to avoid war. If she did not then Orlais would have almost certainly gone to war with Ferelden after the blight.
The game doesn't save any lives that honest politics wouldn't. It's just petty rich people feeding their own egos and claiming victories by embarrassing each other, with little regard for what's right or wrong for the land they rule. I don't see it as clever, witty, or impressive. It's.... vomit inducing.
The game doesn't save any lives that honest politics wouldn't. It's just petty rich people feeding their own egos and claiming victories by embarrassing each other, with little regard for what's right or wrong for the land they rule. I don't see it as clever, witty, or impressive. It's.... vomit inducing.
I don't think there's any such thing as what we perceive as 'honest' politics in DA (if anywhere). So I do believe it saves lives, because in the setting depicted, the only alternative rich people with huge egos have for solving their differences is war.
The game doesn't save any lives that honest politics wouldn't. It's just petty rich people feeding their own egos and claiming victories by embarrassing each other, with little regard for what's right or wrong for the land they rule. I don't see it as clever, witty, or impressive. It's.... vomit inducing.
Do honest politics even exist?
Besides, the game exists, whether or not Celene decided to play. And had she not played war would have been inevitable.
Do honest politics even exist?
Besides, the game exists, whether or not Celene decided to play. And had she not played war would have been inevitable.
War is always inevitable.
The mistake people make is assuming that war is the failure of politics, when in fact, war is the natural state of the human condition.
War is always inevitable.
The mistake people make is assuming that war is the failure of politics, when in fact, war is the natural state of the human condition.
Well, Orlais still isn't at war with Ferelden, and Celene was making good progress at creating a progressive country.
I also really don't like philosophical statements about war. They tend to just make me angry, both at the world in general and at the person making them.
I think almost everyone in the book has dirty secrets and such. As for Celene and Briala I think that love is dead. For all the reason stated. I hate say this but i can see one of them dying possibly both in the game. I can Briala dying no matter what. Celene i could see dying if you choose the dukes side
Ah, yeah, no. As righteous as it would be, you can't expect a person to be that virtuous. Just put yourself in her shoes.
More than that, what would it accomplish? She tells Briala, who becomes even more devastated and probably concocts some hairbrained revenge scheme which gets her killed.Celene did a terrible thing. In her mind to avoid an even worse thing, and since then she's worked to try and make things better. Now I know that the revelation means Briala can never forgive her, though I think some kind of reconciliation may be possible, but I don't think that makes the character irredeemable. I'd argue that being one of the most progressive leaders in thedas when people are actively trying to take you out FOR being so progressive goes a long way.
One person mentioned that the game is really at fault here and that's the point. You CAN'T survive Orlesian politics without being able to do some underhanded stuff now and then. And if everyone does the 'moral' thing and just stops playing...well then that leaves power to the people who aren't very moral. And good people suffer even worse. That's the tragedy. Not that bad people do bad things, but that good peopel have to do bad things to prevent worse things. Trying to attach a black and white lens to this is pointless.
Well, Orlais still isn't at war with Ferelden, and Celene was making good progress at creating a progressive country.
I also really don't like philosophical statements about war. They tend to just make me angry, both at the world in general and at the person making them.
Orlais is at war with itself. Does it matter that it's just orlisean blood being split?
I don't like or enjoy war any more than you do. But I'm not about to put these people on any higher of a pedestal than they've already placed themselves because they've done a marvelous job improving their social standing, just because a delay of the inevitable was a nice side effect of that.
And this is why I hate the Game in general, and have no respect for anyone involved.
Yeah. I may not like Gaspard for many things, but his desire to destroy The Game is not one of them.
Yeah. I may not like Gaspard for many things, but his desire to destroy The Game is not one of them.
I fail to see how a militaristic regime is any better, truth be told. You shouldn't destroy a system unless you have a better idea and can actually implement it.
Honestly, i felt for Celene, i really did, but on the flip side all i could really think was "Briala you treacherous skank!". I think if Celene does see Bria again, she might just chop off her head without question.
More than that, what would it accomplish? She tells Briala, who becomes even more devastated and probably concocts some hairbrained revenge scheme which gets her killed.Celene did a terrible thing. In her mind to avoid an even worse thing, and since then she's worked to try and make things better. Now I know that the revelation means Briala can never forgive her, though I think some kind of reconciliation may be possible, but I don't think that makes the character irredeemable. I'd argue that being one of the most progressive leaders in thedas when people are actively trying to take you out FOR being so progressive goes a long way.
One person mentioned that the game is really at fault here and that's the point. You CAN'T survive Orlesian politics without being able to do some underhanded stuff now and then. And if everyone does the 'moral' thing and just stops playing...well then that leaves power to the people who aren't very moral. And good people suffer even worse. That's the tragedy. Not that bad people do bad things, but that good peopel have to do bad things to prevent worse things. Trying to attach a black and white lens to this is pointless.
Celene did a terrible thing and gets to profit from it twice; once by becoming empress and again by bedding the lovely elven victim of her crime for twenty years, and I'm supposed to applaud her mercy for sparing Briala the pain of knowing the truth and letting her find comfort in the arms of her parents murderer?
I can respect that Celene has to do terrible things every now and then to survive in the world she lives in. I'm not even saying I wouldn't have used murder to secure the throne, were I in her shoes; I just would have murdered my rival instead of going for the sympathy play. But the fact that she kept the person she wronged the most in her action as her lover is sick.
I fail to see how a militaristic regime is any better, truth be told. You shouldn't destroy a system unless you have a better idea and can actually implement it.
Did anywhere in my post say I support Gaspard?
Did anywhere in my post say I support Gaspard?
I know. But I don't see anything particularly worthy of praise in wanting to end the Game without being able to actually offer something better. And Gaspard is most certainly not offering something better. So he gets zero points from me in this matter.
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