551 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

And pretty much im not you don't even understand what im saying to you... Because i never was speaking about alistair vs loghain only loghain vs nobles...

Second you don't get it pretty much i was talking 100 times about absolute monarchy but it wasn't even point... S

And third you are posting from wiki not game that is interpretation of epilogues that aren't even necessarily match to epilogues where it is said some say it was poison... and epiolgues are proved to be rumors not universal truth even devs said that.In da 2 harrowmont is still alive if i remember 7 years after.

 

 

 

Because you don't even know what about im saying.... simple you twist my words...

There was never alistair vs loghain in my argument there were loghain vs nobles did he was winning with them why he lost because group of typical rpg heroes stoped him finding ancient artifacts... but was he winning against nobles yes he was

He was at an impasse. He would never get the full support until a Landsmeet happened.  It would of been an impasse till the dark spawn came. It would of been even worse with an abomination out break, dragon attacks and a forest filled with werewolves near by.

[TheKomandorShepard]

He was at an impasse. He would never get the full support until a Landsmeet happened.  It would of been an impasse till the dark spawn came. It would of been even worse with an abomination out break, dragon attacks and a forest filled with werewolves near by.

If you renember details he cut down opposition in battles he won with minimal loss landsmeet was convoked by arl eamon in order to put Alistair on the throne. Loghain effectively eliminated arl eamon and eamon was saved by hero of the story in end of the day without hero he would die. Sure blight would defeat loghain as he didn't had any gery warden but he won civil war well at least until hero of the story be it orginal da or dlc enter the stage but still loghain defeated opposition not counting grey warden either our character or alistair. 

[leaguer of one]

If you renember details he cut down opposition in battles he won with minimal loss landsmeet was convoked by arl eamon in order to put Alistair on the throne. Loghain effectively eliminated arl eamon and eamon was saved by hero of the story in end of the day without hero he would die. Sure blight would defeat loghain as he didn't had any gery warden but he won civil war well at least until hero of the story be it orginal da or dlc enter the stage but still loghain defeated opposition not counting grey warden either our character or alistair. 

And with the hero not their it still would be at an impasse. The point was getting the noble to work with him and send him men. It matter not if he won some battles. If he does not get support from them he does not get to his goal building an army to fight the dark spawn. Victory was not about winning the war it was about winning the support.

 

Also, Orlias is not an absolute monarchy. The book point it out clearly that nobles have armies and the emperor/empress shares power. The act of trying to turn it into one would start a civil war.

[TheKomandorShepard]

And with the hero not their it still would be at an impasse. The point was getting the noble to work with him and send him men. It matter not if he won some battles. If he does not get support from them he does not get to his goal building an army to fight the dark spawn. Victory was not about winning the war it was about winning the support.

 

Also, Orlias is not an absolute monarchy. The book point it out clearly that nobles have armies and the emperor/empress shares power. The act of tying to turn it into one would start a civil war.

Well he basically state that he will cut down anyone who won't join him... he cut down those who didn't want join him and forced others to do that.Other would have join him if not the warden/alistair. I never said that orlais was absolute monarchy you were arguing that i don't how monarchy works and that monarch bow to the nobles but simple it isn't true in some cases yes when ruler is weak but strong monarch would as i said grab power for example like behlen or loghain by force not every noble will go against them as and they could gain other allies,

[leaguer of one]

Well he basically state that he will cut down anyone who won't join him... he cut down those who didn't want join him and forced others to do that.Other would have join him if not the warden/alistair. I never said that orlais was absolute monarchy you were arguing that i don't how monarchy works and that monarch bow to the nobles but simple it isn't true in some cases yes when ruler is weak but strong monarch would as i said grab power for example like behlen or loghain by force not every noble will go against them as and they could gain other allies,

The fact they were fighting back prove that they weren't willing to join him.  The point was getting them to join him. If they were willing to fight back and be cut down over joining him then it clear he was not getting to his goal. Without the landsmeet the civil war would of just lasted longer. It would not of ended before the darkspawn came.

 

And no, a strong monarch would not recklessly grab for power without considering the consequences and the power they have. That play would never work in Orlias because the power is divided. It would just make a messy civil war happen. 

 

Behlem saw how the wind was blowing and took advantage of it and Loghain did his power play at the worst time ever. The case with Celene is far different. She was the one that change how the wind was blowing in Orlais, and she did he power play in the shadows and manipulated all the nobles. Her only flaw was not killing Gaspard when  she had the chance. You have yet to note how much she had the nobles eating out of her hand before she was force to deal with the elves rebellions. She was doing that for 20 years. If you say using an iron fist is better to rule with then you're not getting that you need an overwhelming army to have that iron fist. And the type of monarchy Orlais has is divided with the empress and the nobles.

[TheKomandorShepard]

The fact they were fighting back prove that they weren't willing to join him.  The point was getting them to join him. If they were willing to fight back and be cut down over joining him then it clear he was not getting to his goal. Without the landsmeet the civil war would of just lasted longer. It would not of ended before the darkspawn came.

 

And no, a strong monarch would not recklessly grab for power without considering the consequences and the power they have. That play would never work in Orlias because the power is divided. It would just make a messy civil war happen. 

 

Behlem saw how the wind was blowing and took advantage of it and Loghain did his power play at the worst time ever. The case with Celene is far different. She was the one that change how the wind was blowing in Orlais, and she did he power play in the shadows and manipulated all the nobles. Her only flaw was not killing Gaspard when  she had the chance. You have yet to note how much she had the nobles eating out of her hand before she was force to deal with the elves rebellions. She was doing that for 20 years. If you say using an iron fist is better to rule with then you're not getting that you need an overwhelming army to have that iron fist. And the type of monarchy Orlais has is divided with the empress and the nobles.

 

Oh god many joined him other he cut ultimately he got what he wanted by force and fear he got control as i said he defeated  opposition with minimal loses rest of nobles was on his side by force....

 

Strong monarch would do that because without monarch wouldn't have any power and would have bow to other not otherwise... And you can win civil war...

 

Hah what celene did pretty much orlais is same as it was despite what she is saying... she promotes destructive and corrupted system and as i said all she can do is please nobles that are corrupted and racist her action show that she can't do anything on her own without noble approval and who rly rule in orlais. No she didn't rule them she was doing what they wanted better she was playing game corrupted system as she was expected she never had power to break current system and it problems. ultimately if nobles won't like them she will bow to them and do what they want pretty much why she didn't do crap as far for elves. corruption will quickly consum her irrelevant reforms that didn't do crap as she herself don't respect law not mention another nobles or their system... 

[Cobra's_back]

Maybe I am naive, but to me, this just all sounds like a bunch of excuses. Celene is the Empress of Orlais. She is the most powerful person in Thedas. Can she do anything she wants? No. But she can do more than what she's done. 

 

If you expect me to believe that the ruler of Ferelden can promote an elf into the Bannorn, but the Empress of Orlais can't get one elf into an university, then I don't know what words to use to describe that Empress other than weak and ineffectual. 

 

In any origin story a hardened King Alistair elects a City Elf to his council. This helps the Elves get food and rights during a shortage. Without him the ending states there is an Elven rebellion. He can do more in a shorter time.

[The Elder King]

In any origin story a hardened King Alistair elects a City Elf to his council. This helps the Elves get food and rights during a shortage. Without him the ending states there is an Elven rebellion. He can do more in a shorter time.

Ferelden is different from Orlais, and Ferelden was in a particular situation. I don't want to enter the discussio about Celene, but the two countries are different.
That's without considering that the elven boon isn't that successful unless the Warden is elected for the position, otherwise the elf is killed. There were still problems in Ferelden for that decision (as there were for the dalish boon).

[Cobra's_back]

Ferelden is different from Orlais, and Ferelden was in a particular situation. I don't want to enter the discussio about Celene, but the two countries are different.
That's without considering that the elven boon isn't that successful unless the Warden is elected for the position, otherwise the elf is killed. There were still problems in Ferelden for that decision (as there were for the dalish boon).

 

Yes I know they are different. I'm not talking about the boon. I was amazed with the changes Alistair did which was independent of the origin story and did become permanent. The council member didn't get killed.

[Heimdall]

Yes I know they are different. I'm not talking about the boon. I was amazed with the changes Alistair did which was independent of the origin story and did become permanent. The council member didn't get killed.

A council member is essentially an advisor as I understand it, a lobbyist. It's not the same as appointing an elf to the nobility with power over humans.

[The Elder King]

Yes I know they are different. I'm not talking about the boon. I was amazed with the changes Alistair did which was independent of the origin story and did become permanent. The council member didn't get killed.

Where was this stated? i don't recall it happening in the slides.

[Cobra's_back]

Where was this stated? i don't recall it happening in the slides.

 

This happens if you get rid of the slave trade, Alistair king.

 

 

“In the months that followed his coronation, Alistair surprised many by studying the art of governance and doing his best to rule the kingdom with a fair and even hand. He proved quite popular with the people, his humor and easy grace winning them over as much as his willingness to sneak out of the castle and mingle in the lower-class taverns on occasion.”

 

Slave trade stopped:

 

Alistair is king

 

“With the slavers shut down in the Alienage, the lot of the city-born elves improved for a time. The new king even named the local elder to his personal court--a scandal amongst the humans, but a sign of new hope to the elves.”

 

Alistair is not king

 

“With the slavers shut down in the Alienage, the lot of the city-born elves improved for a time. A food shortage years later forced Queen Anora to come down hard on elven rioters, an act not quickly forgiven and a sign that tensions between the elves and humans were far from resolved.”

 

It never said the local elder died and it prevented a riot.

[The Elder King]

Thanks, I forgot about it.
Though I don't think it's as relevant as making an elf bann of the alienage, since the latter involves powers for the elves, while I don't know how much power an elf in the court would've. Though compared with Anora's slide it seems it prevented a riot.

[leaguer of one]

Oh god many joined him other he cut ultimately he got what he wanted by force and fear he got control as i said he defeated  opposition with minimal loses rest of nobles was on his side by force....

 

Strong monarch would do that because without monarch wouldn't have any power and would have bow to other not otherwise... And you can win civil war...

 

Hah what celene did pretty much orlais is same as it was despite what she is saying... she promotes destructive and corrupted system and as i said all she can do is please nobles that are corrupted and racist her action show that she can't do anything on her own without noble approval and who rly rule in orlais. No she didn't rule them she was doing what they wanted better she was playing game corrupted system as she was expected she never had power to break current system and it problems. ultimately if nobles won't like them she will bow to them and do what they want pretty much why she didn't do crap as far for elves. corruption will quickly consum her irrelevant reforms that didn't do crap as she herself don't respect law not mention another nobles or their system... 

People were still fighting him tooth and nail. If there was no blight he would have the conditions and time to win. With the blight it's an impasse being that his goal was never winning but support.

 

And lose a civil war. Forcing rule without the means to back it leads to failure. And Orlais Celene's power is not her military.

 

And changing it by force would make more of a mess. If she want to make drastic changes that takes time or the needed force to do so. Her army is not absolute and the alternative requires noble support. She can't just force it.

[TheKomandorShepard]

People were still fighting him tooth and nail. If there was no blight he would have the conditions and time to win. With the blight it's an impasse being that his goal was never winning but support.

 

And lose a civil war. Forcing rule without the means to back it leads to failure. And Orlais Celene's power is not her military.

 

And changing it by force would make more of a mess. If she want to make drastic changes that takes time or the needed force to do so. Her army is not absolute and the alternative requires noble support. She can't just force it.

Where they were fighting with him as i said the defeated opposition.

 

As i said she is weak leader that why she would lose.

 

She won't change crap she is corrupted and promotes corruption and corrupted system playing along with it and she thinks that if she wrote few laws or codex everyone will follow it please dude that country openly encourage to corruption and breaking law as well you would wave paper with human right before freddy kruger face. Pretty much as long no one will grab orlesian for the face and won't deliver strong beating there is no sense placing few laws especially if the Empress is such weakling that fears nobility and bid to their will.

 

"And changing it by force would make more of a mess"

Pretty much this is about change is thats why many fear it.

[Heimdall]

Where they were fighting with him as i said the defeated opposition.
 
As i said she is weak leader that why she would lose.
 
She won't change crap she is corrupted and promotes corruption and corrupted system playing along with it and she thinks that if she wrote few laws or codex everyone will follow it please dude that country openly encourage to corruption and breaking law as well you would wave paper with human right before freddy kruger face. Pretty much as long no one will grab orlesian for the face and won't deliver strong beating there is no sense placing few laws especially if the Empress is such weakling that fears nobility and bid to their will.
 
"And changing it by force would make more of a mess"
Pretty much this is about change is thats why many fear it.

So, you're one of those who assume change is inherently wonderful? There's nothing inherently wonderful about change. Sometimes it is necessary and desirable. It is also almost always dangerous, volatile, and potentially far more destructive than it is helpful if not handled carefully.

The Empress is no weakling unless you were expecting the myth of absolute monarchy. If Celene fear's the nobility, and that's not the word I'd use, it'd be the same healthy fear you're supposed to feel towards anything capable of destroying you and all you you've worked for in life if you're careless.

[TheKomandorShepard]

So, you're one of those who assume change is inherently wonderful? There's nothing inherently wonderful about change. Sometimes it is necessary and desirable. It is also almost always dangerous, volatile, and potentially far more destructive than it is helpful if not handled carefully.

The Empress is no weakling unless you were expecting the myth of absolute monarchy. If Celene fear's the nobility, and that's not the word I'd use, it'd be the same healthy fear you're supposed to feel towards anything capable of destroying you and all you you've worked for in life if you're careless.

Pretty much i said that change isn't wonderful it require force that on others.Celene is not doing that she is puppet to old system and it's corruption her irrelevant reforms won't work in system that openly encouraged to ignore and break law after her death corruption will stay and things won't change outisde few new irrelevant laws that no one will care pretty much like blood magic in tevinter and many other laws in orlais.Empres won't do crap as she fear other nobles and fear break system so if she won't want change things nobles will threaten her with finger and she will hide under her bead doing what they will want. That all what empress is only someone like Behlen would actually change things he was strong and independent he don't fear break old system celene is weak and dependent that is difference between them he succeed in very short time she didn't do anything revelant in long time... 

[Heimdall]

Pretty much i said that change isn't wonderful it require force that on others.Celene is not doing that she is puppet to old system and it's corruption her irrelevant reforms won't work in system that openly encouraged to ignore and break law after her death corruption will stay and things won't change outisde few new irrelevant laws that no one will care pretty much like blood magic in tevinter and many other laws in orlais.Empres won't do crap as she fear other nobles and fear break system so if she won't want change things nobles will threaten her with finger and she will hide under her bead doing what they will want. That all what empress is only someone like Behlen would actually change things he was strong and independent he don't fear break old system celene is weak and dependent that is difference between them he succeed in very short time she didn't do anything revelant in long time...

"requiring force" "puppet to old system"...

Forcing change from the top down is usually a great way to ensure it won't last beyond your (imminent) death. Celene isn't afraid to break the system, she's just smart enough to realize that those who refuse to play go the way of Ned Stark: noble yet entirely ineffectual. You aren't going to change the nature of a political system without the support of that political system or at least the support of the armed forces. The former is laughably unrealistic in Orlais and the latter depends on her ability to convince nobles to side with her. Not choosing to waste her time and her life on a pointless cause doesn't make her a puppet.

Bhelen's political reality and Celene's are not the same. The nobles of Orzammar aren't generally mad enough to enter open rebellion considering their precarious position in the Deep Roads. At most, Bhelen dealt with assassins. He also had the support of a progressive section of the deshyr that favored opening up to the surface world and making use of the casteless (You can thank the existential threat of he Darkspawn for making that appealing, the nobles like the idea of havin more bodies to throw at the Darkspawn. Bhelen knew he had to convince people to support him as well). Celene has to deal with the threat of open civil war tearing her kingdom apart if she makes a rash move. She has no existential threat to back her up. Orlesian society is complacent on the matter of the elves and no nobles champion it's cause. She could strike out alone, but surely it would be a gesture of futility.

[SirGladiator]

It seems to me that Celene and Briala are a lot alike, both in the obvious good ways, and in the slightly less obvious (but extremely important) bad ways.  The only things that Celene cares about are power, and Briala.  The only things Briala cares about are elves, and Celene.  Both have caused the unnecessary deaths of countless innocent people (Briala much moreso even than Celene since her plan is apparently to orchestrate the deaths of so many humans that somehow elves will be able to one day take over the whole country, which of course will never happen but will certainly result in a LOT of deaths) .  I think Celene and Briala will get back together one day, and I hope that we can help make that happen, naturally their getting back together would be one of the most fun and satisfying parts of the game.  Each one has betrayed the other in unfathomably huge ways, but they still love each other, and clearly if a love can withstand that much killing and betrayal from each side, it can withstand anything, and that's putting it mildly .  Celene cost Briana her parents, Briala cost Celene an uncontested throne.  And if you think about it, I don't think Briala even did it because of her parents, or the elves in that city that Celene burned just to make herself look good (which obviously backfired in a huge way since it resulted in her being ambushed and almost killed right afterward) .  I think Briala ultimately betrayed Celene out of jealousy, because she mistakenly believed Celene cared more about Michel than her, due to the way events transpired in that final battle (for which we never got an explanation, but clearly Celene loved only Briala, so there must've been an easy explanation that was just never given, maybe they'll address that in the game) .  Once Briala calms down, has killed enough humans to satisfy herself, etc. we as the Inquisition put a stop to the civil war, and Celene shows her that she still loves her and only her, they'll get back together.  Whether that's as co-leaders of Orlais or as private citizens is the only question, but if we can choose I'd try to make the first one happen, Celene and Briala ruling Orlais would be the ideal scenario.  Hopefully Briala can stop Celene from causing the deaths of anymore elves, and Celene would stop Briala from causing the deaths of anymore humans, and they could instead rule wisely and peacefully.  A true happy ending indeed!          

[ShawDawg94]

I just finished the book and I found it difficult to enjoy the end after reading how incompetent the Dalish were portrayed. I understand needing to escape the camp and that the dalish were acting a little dickish, but was it really necessary for the writer have Michel take three out with a blanket? Every dalish elf was going to get slaughtered and you couldn't give at least one of them a good showing in combat?

[The Night Haunter]

Michael is the best Chevalier alive, while the Dalish aren't trained to anywhere near that extent. The Clan's weapon master (whatever his title was) does a good job against Michael (who then has all his weapons and armor), but again Michael is the best, so he was doomed from the get go.

[Kingthlayer]

I just finished the book and I found it difficult to enjoy the end after reading how incompetent the Dalish were portrayed. I understand needing to escape the camp and that the dalish were acting a little dickish, but was it really necessary for the writer have Michel take three out with a blanket? Every dalish elf was going to get slaughtered and you couldn't give at least one of them a good showing in combat?

 

Aren't the Dalish always portrayed that way though?  In Origins a whole clan is wiped out by the Warden and a few wolves.  In II they're wiped out by Hawke and crew.

[Devtek]

In response to the comment on the type of gov for Orlais. In an absolute monarchy nobles can and did raise their own armies. There are plenty of examples of this and indeed having nobles raise armies would be the only way for a king / queen to actually have any significant army at all because most of the knights would swear oaths to their local lords first. Local lords would be expected to raise levies of men from the freemen on their land. Who would then follow that lord to battle. In an absolute monarchy the only defining characteristic in common is that the monarch has full political control of the nation which we now split into 3 parts in democracies. Orlais is a perfect example of an absolute monarchy b/c the emperor is not held in check by any form of constitution (that we know off).

[Mistic]

Aren't the Dalish always portrayed that way though?  In Origins a whole clan is wiped out by the Warden and a few wolves.  In II they're wiped out by Hawke and crew.

 

True. It seems that the possibility of wiping out a Dalish clan is a trend in Dragon Age.

[Dean_the_Young]

True. It seems that the possibility of wiping out a Dalish clan is a trend in Dragon Age.

 

Unlike Humans. Wiping out humans reaches epic mass-murderer proportions at times, and pretty much unavoidable. In fact, it's not even controversial.

 

Down with anti-Human discrimination!