551 réponses à ce sujet

[jedicam10]

I honestly think letting Briala have the relationship may have been the kindest thing to do. Briala presumably needed Celenes comfort just as much as Celene needed hers, and giving Briala love and the promise to help the elves was likely the kindest thing Celene could do. I see your point about allowing it to start violating human decency, but similarly I can see how rejecting her, leaving her with a rejection from the one she loved as well as dead parents, and denying her that love, would have also violated human decency, particularly since Celene loved her as well. 

 

I don't think they should get back together, after what Briala did. I honestly think the best thing Celene can do is find a noble male and secure her power, using it to continue the path of progression and culture she started. 

 

As for Briala, I hope that she managed to help the elves, but I also hope that she gets some form of punishment for allowing so many innocent humans in Orlais to die to help her people, be it the guilt or something else. Sacrificing so many humans to save the elves rather than working with Celene to do it diplomatically makes her a hypocrite for being angry at Celene for killing her parents to secure the power she needed to save Orlais.

 

 

I'll respond to you by each paragraph:

 

1) I think Briala would've been fine without Celene's love. She was already trained as a bard by the time of her parents death. She'd probably had fled the capital and left for the Dales anyways, though I admit this is pure speculation.

 

2) I don't see Briala the one at much fault at all, even if she betrayed Celene. Her people have been oppressed for centuries now. Countless of elves have died needlessly for every human who will die in the civil war. She stumbled upon an opportunity to make a lasting impact for her people, one that would be denied by Celene and Gaspard should either succeed. She owes no loyalty to Celene. And why is it okay for Celene to have killed her parents but as soon as Briala turns her back on Celene, it's a terrible betrayal?

 

3) Again, Briala deserves little, if any, guilt for using the eluvians to bide time for the elves to be free. No matter what Celene does, the rest of the Orlesian nobility will not allow elves to be put on equal footing as the rest of high-class human society. Celene was promising what she knew she could not do to Briala. Briala can not look to Orlesian politics or diplomacy alone to succeed. Not even the human nation of Fereldan could find freedom without fighting for it. What makes you think elves can just ask for it?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The only way I see it happening in the short term is through a revolution. But then, revolutions have the bad habit of creating systems that are at best marginally better to their predecessors.

*looks at all the rebellions in history resulting in the creation of much better systems* 

 

I'm not following your logic here.

[Cobra's_back]

It was clear that Celene regretted doing it, but as she said herself: had she not done so she would never have managed to rise to power, and she and her servants would likely have been killed anyway. 

 

Remember that it is strongly implied that Briala's mother killed another elven servant so that Briala would gain the position of Celenes handmaiden in the first place. No one is an innocent if they are playing the game. 

 

And Celene not telling Briala the truth was no more manipulative than Briala using her relationship with Celene to help the elves for decades. 

 

You forgot she had Briala arrested and she burned/killed the City Elves. Secondly, I don't know anyone who would standby someone who killed their parents and lied to them for 20 years.

 

Would you stand by someone like that?

[Former_Fiend]

I honestly think letting Briala have the relationship may have been the kindest thing to do. Briala presumably needed Celenes comfort just as much as Celene needed hers, and giving Briala love and the promise to help the elves was likely the kindest thing Celene could do. I see your point about allowing it to start violating human decency, but similarly I can see how rejecting her, leaving her with a rejection from the one she loved as well as dead parents, and denying her that love, would have also violated human decency, particularly since Celene loved her as well. 

 

I don't think they should get back together, after what Briala did. I honestly think the best thing Celene can do is find a noble male and secure her power, using it to continue the path of progression and culture she started. 

 

As for Briala, I hope that she manages to help the elves, but I also hope that she gets some form of punishment for allowing so many innocent humans in Orlais to die to help her people, be it the guilt or something else. Sacrificing so many humans to save the elves rather than working with Celene to do it diplomatically makes her a hypocrite for being angry at Celene for killing her parents to secure the power she needed to save Orlais.

 

As harsh as it would have been, I can't imagine it would have been any worse than learning the truth after twenty years of sleeping with the person who murdered your parents, serving them, aiding their agenda, strenghtening their position. 

 

After Celene made the decision to murder Briala's family, there was no kind thing to do. But she didn't have to take the option that lead to her violating a woman's trust on a nightly basis.

[Shadow Fox]

War is always inevitable. 

 

The mistake people make is assuming that war is the failure of politics, when in fact, war is the natural state of life.

Fixed.

[Gwydden]

*looks at all the rebellions in history resulting in the creation of much better systems* 

 

I'm not following your logic here.

Louis XVI's Reign > French Revolution > The Terror > Napoleonic Empire

Nicolas II's Regin > Russian Revolution > Soviet Dictatorship

 

Just to mention a couple of well-known examples off the top of my head. Revolutions may eventually pay off, but at best they take a looooooong time to do so, if they ever manage it.

 

Anyway, this is really not the place for this.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Louis XVI's Reign > French Revolution > The Terror > Napoleonic Empire

Nicolas II's Regin > Russian Revolution > Soviet Dictatorship

 

Just to mention a couple of well-known examples off the top of my head. Revolutions may eventually pay off, but at best they take a looooooong time to do so, if they ever manage it.

 

Anyway, this is really not the place for this.

So what? We shouldn't try at all?

 

We can drop it, but why start it if you don't want to continue it after one post?

[Cobra's_back]

Louis XVI's Reign > French Revolution > The Terror > Napoleonic Empire

Nicolas II's Regin > Russian Revolution > Soviet Dictatorship

 

Just to mention a couple of well-known examples off the top of my head. Revolutions may eventually pay off, but at best they take a looooooong time to do so, if they ever manage it.

 

Anyway, this is really not the place for this.

 

How about the American revolution. I'm loving every bit of that success?

[Former_Fiend]

Louis XVI's Reign > French Revolution > The Terror > Napoleonic Empire

Nicolas II's Regin > Russian Revolution > Soviet Dictatorship

 

Just to mention a couple of well-known examples off the top of my head. Revolutions may eventually pay off, but at best they take a looooooong time to do so, if they ever manage it.

 

Anyway, this is really not the place for this.

 

I agree with Hinata somewhat more than I agree with you(somewhat), but I definitely agree with the bolded bit here; this isn't the time or place.

[Ianamus]

 

You forgot she had Briala arrested and she burned/killed the City Elves. Secondly, I don't know anyone who would standby someone who killed their parents and lied to them for 20 years.

 

Would you stand by someone like that?

 

To be fair to Celene the elves were rebelling and killing guards, merchants and other human commoners. They were hardly innocent, even though they had been wronged. Celene also planned to have Briala kept under guard in the palace for a few years, not thrown in some cell.

 

If I knew that my parents had murdered and plotted themselves I probably would be able to forgive somone who did that with time, so long as they stood by their promises to me and genuinely loved me. 

 

 

 

2) I don't see Briala the one at much fault at all, even if she betrayed Celene. Her people have been oppressed for centuries now. Countless of elves have died needlessly for every human who will die in the civil war. She stumbled upon an opportunity to make a lasting impact for her people, one that would be denied by Celene and Gaspard should either succeed. She owes no loyalty to Celene. And why is it okay for Celene to have killed her parents but as soon as Briala turns her back on Celene, it's a terrible betrayal?

 

I think that Celene and Briala are as bad as each other, mostly. Both have sacrificed peoples lives for what they believe is the greater good. 

 

The only reason I think Briala's betrayal is worse is because Celene betrayed Briala before she fell in love with her, whereas Briala did so after. 

 

 

As harsh as it would have been, I can't imagine it would have been any worse than learning the truth after twenty years of sleeping with the person who murdered your parents, serving them, aiding their agenda, strenghtening their position. 

 

The idea was that Briala would never have found out though, and would die happily, never knowing what Celene had done. The only reason she found out in the end was Gaspard showing her his ring, which would have never happened under any other circumstance. 

 

Personally I would almost always tell someone the harsh truth over a kind lie due to my morals, but I think what Celene did afterwards was the kindest thing given the circumstances, and I can't fault her for it. 

[Cobra's_back]

But at that point wasnt Briala plotting against in the early stages? So i say Celene pllayed the game well.

 

She sure is a smart one.

[Gwydden]

How about the American revolution. I'm loving every bit of that success?

That is more of an Independence War. A secession more than an actual revolution. I'm still surprised Americans actually call it that. There was no radical change to the system yet, just a territory splitting from another country.

 

So what? We shouldn't try at all?

 

We can drop it, but why start it if you don't want to continue it after one post?

Well, I thought there were PMs for that xD. I'd just rather not derail the thread, so I will not comment on this further here.

[Han Shot First]

I haven't read any of the DA books yet, so someone please spoil me. What exactly does Celene have done to Briala's parents, and why? I get that she had them killed and this somehow helped her gain the throne, but I'm wondering what the specifics were. 

[dewayne31]

She sure is a smart one.

What I meant if I was Celene and learned Briala was poltting the elf that city. I would come down Celene did. Plus you had elves already killing guard and so forth. Not saying the length she went too was right. But I understand it

[Hellion Rex]

I haven't read any of the DA books yet, so someone please spoil me. What exactly does Celene have done to Briala's parents, and why? I get that she had them killed and this somehow helped her gain the throne, but I'm wondering what the specifics were. 

To gain the Dowager Lady Mantillon's support to gain the throne, Celene offers up her servants (save Briala) as a testament to her ruthlessness, which pleases the Dowager greatly. She plans to use the so called "assassination attempt" (which was engineered by the Dowager) to sway more nobles to her side.

[Ianamus]

I haven't read any of the DA books yet, so someone please spoil me. What exactly does Celene have done to Briala's parents, and why? I get that she had them killed and this somehow helped her gain the throne, but I'm wondering what the specifics were. 

 

Celene had all of her servants (save Briala) killed for three reasons:

 

1: So that none of them could be bribed/ tortured or manipulated into revealing any incriminating evidence they knew that could lose her support (I think it was stated that they did know things that could lead to this)

 

2: As part of a sympathy ploy. Young girl almost killed by assassins while visiting a nobles estate, all of her servants killed. Would gain her sympathy support. 

 

3. The above playing of the game impressed lady Mantillon, earning her the Nobles support. In return lady mantillon would kill the emperor, allowing Celene to take the throne.

[EmissaryofLies]

Getting a real sense of deja vu here. Except people are actually being civil to the OP...Interesting. 

[myahele]

Since Orlais is modeled after France I wonder if the human commoners fed up with chevaliers, The Game, and elves getting new rights/attention compared to them will start a revolution?

It could be a confederacy or republic. It'll be an unexpected prologue.

[Cobra's_back]

To be fair to Celene the elves were rebelling and killing guards, merchants and other human commoners. They were hardly innocent, even though they had been wronged. Celene also planned to have Briala kept under guard in the palace for a few years, not thrown in some cell.

 

If I knew that my parents had murdered and plotted themselves I probably would be able to forgive somome who did that with time, so long as they stood by their promises to me and genuinely loved me. 

 

 

 

The key word is trust. You have already been lied to for decades. It is not like you can read minds. It may also be too painful for Briala seeing that she may have loved her parent. I wouldn't advise anyone to do this to a love one ever. 

 

Briala under guard in the palace is loss of freedom.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I wonder if there will be options for the throne other than Celene and Gaspard, because neither deserve anything more than the hangman's noose.

[Hellion Rex]

I wonder if there will be options for the throne other than Celene and Gaspard, because neither deserve anything more than the hangman's noose.

I believe Celene is the only viable candidate right now, as all other contenders have been killed but Gaspard. It'd have to be some other noble.

[Former_Fiend]

It could be Celene's royal fool or the guy who runs the closest fruit stand to the royal palace for all I care.

[dewayne31]

I wonder if there will be options for the throne other than Celene and Gaspard, because neither deserve anything more than the hangman's noose.

i hope so, but i have feeling we"ll have to side with one or the other. I prefer Celene though anyway

[calvinien]

 

Celene did a terrible thing and gets to profit from it twice; once by becoming empress and again by bedding the lovely elven victim of her crime for twenty years, and I'm supposed to applaud her mercy for sparing Briala the pain of knowing the truth and letting her find comfort in the arms of her parents murderer?

 

I can respect that Celene has to do terrible things every now and then to survive in the world she lives in. I'm not even saying I wouldn't have used murder to secure the throne, were I in her shoes; I just would have murdered my rival instead of going for the sympathy play. But the fact that she kept the person she wronged the most in her action as her lover is sick. 

 

1- You talk like Briala was a trophy, like it was part of some private joke. Celene never wanted any harm to come to her, and tried to save her. Nobody is denying what happened to her parents was wrong, but acting like them falling in love was part of some evil scheme is reading into the text stuff that wans't there (especially considering half the problems celen runs into in the book are a dircet result of her being in love with Briala.)

2- HOW? How are you going to kill your rival? You have no support structure, they are actively coming for you and they know where you are. Do tell how you, a 16 year old are going to do this with no one to help you?

[Cobra's_back]

I wonder if there will be options for the throne other than Celene and Gaspard, because neither deserve anything more than the hangman's noose.

 

True. I want anyone else but them. I think it would be great to give it back to the Elves. Wasn't that their original homeland?