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[Cobra's_back]

Louis XVI's Reign > French Revolution > The Terror > Napoleonic Empire

Nicolas II's Regin > Russian Revolution > Soviet Dictatorship

 

Just to mention a couple of well-known examples off the top of my head. Revolutions may eventually pay off, but at best they take a looooooong time to do so, if they ever manage it.

 

Anyway, this is really not the place for this.

 

What part of Dragon Age is a real world? You want to apply a real world analysis to a fantasy world. Dragon Age is not like any time in history. How can you dismiss magic, spirits, dragons and the veil from the equation? All these variables are at play here and none are real world. This give the dev plenty of room to do what they want.

[Cobra's_back]

Ok do remember that now. But I dont see the Dalish joing her especiallt afer Hirschmal and whjat actually happened ther. I dont get wrong i think some flock to her. But being the inquistoir could be Dalish I think she wont have their full support atleast.

 

The Dalish want the PW to the mirrors and they don't have any love for humans. This maybe their last opportunity to get what they want. I believe they want some of their homeland back.  

 

 

I found:

 

"Shartan was killed when Andraste was betrayed to the Tevinters, but in 1025 TE, Maferath and Andraste's sons gave the elves the Dales as a reward for their part in the war. At that time, the Dales were on the fringe of Tevinter territory and were barely populated, with only the scattered Ciriane people to the west, and the barbarians of Fereldan Valley on the other side of the Frostback Mountains. The freed elves set off for their new home from Tevinter on foot in what would come to be called "The Long Walk". Many perished along the way, but those who survived founded the city of Halamshiral – meaning "the end of the journey" in Elvish. They were joined by elves from across Thedas and began the task of restoring their lost language, religion and lore."

 

This was taken away.

[Cobra's_back]

Reason for the Elves to hate humans:

 

"The Fall of the Dales Edit

In their attempt to regain the lost glory of Elvhenan, the elves cut themselves off from their human neighbours. Throughout the Second Blight, which lasted for most of the Divine Age, the elves of the Dales remained neutral and unhelpful. When the city of Montsimmard was nearly destroyed by darkspawn in 1:25 Divine, it is alleged that the elven army simply watched from nearby. Partly because of this, the end of the Blight saw increasing hostility between the Dales and Orlais. According to human accounts, border skirmishes escalated into full-scale war after the elven forces attacked the Orlesian town of Red Crossing in 2:9 Glory. However, there is also reason to suspect the Chantry, which objected to the worship of the elven pantheon, of inciting fear and hatred of the elves by allegedly spreading false rumours of human sacrifice. The Dalish claim the war started after the Chantry sent templars into their sovereign territory after the elves kicked their missionaries out of the Dales.[5] By 2:10 Glory, elven forces had captured Montsimmard and were on the doorstep of Val Royeaux."

[Wolfen09]

What part of Dragon Age is a real world? You want to apply a real world analysis to a fantasy world. Dragon Age is not like any time in history. How can you dismiss magic, spirits, dragons and the veil from the equation? All these variables are at play here and none are real world. This give the dev plenty of room to do what they want.

 

it is not real world, but do not forget that the writers use our world as inspiration, so some things maybe similar is all he is pointing out

[dewayne31]

The Dalish want the PW to the mirrors and they don't have any love for humans. This maybe their last opportunity to get what they want. I believe they want some of their homeland back.  

 

 

I found:

 

"Shartan was killed when Andraste was betrayed to the Tevinters, but in 1025 TE, Maferath and Andraste's sons gave the elves the Dales as a reward for their part in the war. At that time, the Dales were on the fringe of Tevinter territory and were barely populated, with only the scattered Ciriane people to the west, and the barbarians of Fereldan Valley on the other side of the Frostback Mountains. The freed elves set off for their new home from Tevinter on foot in what would come to be called "The Long Walk". Many perished along the way, but those who survived founded the city of Halamshiral – meaning "the end of the journey" in Elvish. They were joined by elves from across Thedas and began the task of restoring their lost language, religion and lore."

 

This was taken away.

I wasn't trying say dalish love the humans just the opposite in fact. my canon warden was dalish. I'm was saying most Dalish in my dealing and reading seem be realists. Halamshiral elf were killing guards, merchants and commonfolk. I think Dalish realize once everything settled the Human wont leave then in peace. They may for awhile to rebuild. But it won't last. I think Celene at time the time was their best bet of getting their freedom. Now i think the inquistor is if so desire.

[dewayne31]

 

Reason for the Elves to hate humans:

 

"The Fall of the Dales Edit

In their attempt to regain the lost glory of Elvhenan, the elves cut themselves off from their human neighbours. Throughout the Second Blight, which lasted for most of the Divine Age, the elves of the Dales remained neutral and unhelpful. When the city of Montsimmard was nearly destroyed by darkspawn in 1:25 Divine, it is alleged that the elven army simply watched from nearby. Partly because of this, the end of the Blight saw increasing hostility between the Dales and Orlais. According to human accounts, border skirmishes escalated into full-scale war after the elven forces attacked the Orlesian town of Red Crossing in 2:9 Glory. However, there is also reason to suspect the Chantry, which objected to the worship of the elven pantheon, of inciting fear and hatred of the elves by allegedly spreading false rumours of human sacrifice. The Dalish claim the war started after the Chantry sent templars into their sovereign territory after the elves kicked their missionaries out of the Dales.[5] By 2:10 Glory, elven forces had captured Montsimmard and were on the doorstep of Val Royeaux."

 

We have what the chantry says and what elves say which doubt either is the whole truth.but as saying goes history is written by the victors

 

[LobselVith8]

On the other hand, how easy would it be for the Dalish to see the city elves as second-class citizens too? I can't imagine they wouldn't end up as servants and laborers for the Dalish, especially after reading The Masked Empire.

 

It's sort of too bad we probably won't be able to explore that idea in any length.

 

Are we really using the one-dimensional caricatures from "The Masked Empire" as an example of what three-dimensional Dalish characters would do, after seeing how Lanaya and Aneirin were taken in, and treated as one of their own? Lanaya managed to become First, despite competing against several contenders, and the clan allowed Aneirin to learn their ancient magic, wear their clothes, get vallaslin (blood writing), and even live on his own and follow them at a distance, despite wanting to live on his own. Clan Virnehn is as much of an example of all the Dalish as Alrik and Karras are examples of all the templars, or Decimus and Grace serving as examples of the mages.

[Uirebhiril]

Are we really using the one-dimensional caricatures from "The Masked Empire" as an example of what three-dimensional Dalish characters would do, after seeing how Lanaya and Aneirin were taken in, and treated as one of their own?

 

No; I was basing that idea on the actions of some of the Dalish, and of Felassan pointing out how there were servants (slaves?) even when there was a great elven kingdom. Truthfully, I was somewhat surprised at one of the comments in TME - I forget by whom - about how the Dalish would take in the "strays" when referring to city elves, since in the games there has been more than one individual who had left the city for the clans and were not treated poorly for it.

 

But still, I would fully expect an issue like that between the two elf factions. They might play nice and be all about brotherly love while fighting for their freedom, but they are still people just the same and I don't doubt issues of class, caste, or superiority would come out before long.

[LobselVith8]

I don't know if the city elves would like the idea of having Dalish culture and religion forced upon them... They've been seperate for near 1000 years now

 

Considering the Dalish clans aren't actively trying to convert anyone, and being one of them is optional (to the point where you're allowed to leave if you want to follow your own path), I don't see why you think they would try to force the elves to abandon their religion. I'm sure some of the Dalish would be wary of Andrastian elves, considering they blame the Chantry for sending missionaries and templars into their sovereign kingdom in attempts to forcibly convert them to the shemlen religion of the Maker, but I don't see them trying to convert (especially when they are different than the Andrastian faith, and the entire reason the Chantry wants to convert everyone is their belief that the Maker will return when the Chant is sung from the four corners of the world).

 

It's also entirely possible that some elves would voluntarily convert if the Dalish had control of an area where the elves could prosper, in the same way some Kirkwall elves converted to the Qun when they saw an opportunity to be more than what Andrastian society allowed them to be.

 

Some Dalish may have issues with the city elves, of course, and some city elves may have issues with the Dalish, since some of them view the Dalish as savages, and even look down on their own as 'flat ears' when they try to live outside the Alienage. There's also the Andrastian view on magic, which clashes with how the People view magic as a gift of the Creators that shouldn't be caged. All that said, I think that there could be strides for reconciliation by having them work together for the common goal of an independent Dales, where they face a common enemy who has oppressed and subjugated the Elvhen for centuries.

[Giggles_Manically]

Also to note that the Dalish in Origins are not very nice to a City Elf when you first meet them.

 

I honestly think that the elves are politically fractured just like humans.

Will Andrastian Elves give up their worship for the Old Gods?

Will elves from Orlais, Free Marches, Fereldan etc get along?

Will Qun sympathetic elves show loyalty to a new land?

Will the Dalish support members of their tribes marrying City Elves in a new home?

Will some elves support attacking humans in revenge?

Who will lead this new nation? Briala? A Keeper? A City Elf elder?
How will human nations even react to a new elvish nation?

 

Honestly Briala is to much like Anders.

"FREEDOM NOW!"

 

While I think freedom to self determine your own fate is a good thing, it should not overwhelm practicality. 
Briala thinking that elves can all be united after so long, especially when EVEN QUNARI have societal divisions is rather foolish.

 

Honestly I think the best thing they can hope for is enfranchisement like Bhelen does for the Casteless.

An elven country? That may not be such a good idea.

[dewayne31]

No; I was basing that idea on the actions of some of the Dalish, and of Felassan pointing out how there were servants (slaves?) even when there was a great elven kingdom. Truthfully, I was somewhat surprised at one of the comments in TME - I forget by whom - about how the Dalish would take in the "strays" when referring to city elves, since in the games there has been more than one individual who had left the city for the clans and were not treated poorly for it.

 

But still, I would fully expect an issue like that between the two elf factions. They might play nice and be all about brotherly love while fighting for their freedom, but they are still people just the same and I don't doubt issues of class, caste, or superiority would come out before long.

Arent the Dalish suppose to be upper class from Dales? like Nobles i thought i read somewhere

[Eragon-]

Celene seems like a very "good" (morally gray) character. She does what she thinks is necessary but, is not out-and-out heartless. I would hope if she has a good chunk of participation in DA:I that Bioware keep her as is. The conversations should be interesting.

[Cobra's_back]

it is not real world, but do not forget that the writers use our world as inspiration, so some things maybe similar is all he is pointing out

 

Thank you. I must have missed it. I thought he was trying to say that revolutions often fail or take a long time.

 

In Dragon Age the dev introduced magic mirrors that allow fast travel. I can't wait for the next fun new stuff they may bring. All of this makes it seem as if real world doesn't fit the build to well and I'm enjoying it. It is a creative world and I'm totally okay with giving them as much latitude as they want.

[LobselVith8]

Arent the Dalish suppose to be upper class from Dales? like Nobles i thought i read somewhere

 

The Keepers are typically the descendants of the nobility who governed the Dales. The independent elven kingdom was governed based on an aristocratic/oligarchic model rather than a monarchy.

[Cobra's_back]

Are we really using the one-dimensional caricatures from "The Masked Empire" as an example of what three-dimensional Dalish characters would do, after seeing how Lanaya and Aneirin were taken in, and treated as one of their own? Lanaya managed to become First, despite competing against several contenders, and the clan allowed Aneirin to learn their ancient magic, wear their clothes, get vallaslin (blood writing), and even live on his own and follow them at a distance, despite wanting to live on his own. Clan Virnehn is as much of an example of all the Dalish as Alrik and Karras are examples of all the templars, or Decimus and Grace serving as examples of the mages.

 

 

The group in the book wasn't like any of the Dalish groups we met so far. I'm wondering if they did this to set the stage for Briala to become the leader that unites both?

[LobselVith8]

The group in the book wasn't like any of the Dalish groups we met so far. I'm wondering if they did this to set the stage for Briala to become the leader that unites both?

 

While I disliked how Briala brought into Felassan's garbage that Clan Virnehn was evidence of how all the Dalish behave, I think you're right. She could be a great leader who helps the Elvhen, and unifies the myriad of elves for a common goal.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The thing about Felassan is that in one moment he says that all clans are different and that they'd need to gain their loyalty clan by clan, and then shortly afterward he talks about them as if they are all the same. I almost wonder if the first part was added in later because they needed to mention it to be accurate to lore.

 

Anyway, Briala told Mihris she would be willing to work with the Dalish if they worked with her goals, but also wondered aloud if she should have killed her instead so I get the sense that Briala's relationship with the Dalish at the end of the book is essentially neutral, possibly to signify a potential Dalish Inquisitor's default relationship with her at the start.

[TheLittleTpot]

I think that saying that all Dalish are the same was meant to mean that they all share similar aspects, such as all being obsessed with the past, all being wary of humans, or all looking out for each other. Felassan saying that all Dalish are the same doesn't necessarily contradict him also saying that all clans have different views, but that's just me digging into semantics.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think that saying that all Dalish are the same was meant to mean that they all share similar aspects, such as all being obsessed with the past, all being wary of humans, or all looking out for each other. Felassan saying that all Dalish are the same doesn't necessarily contradict him also saying that all clans have different views, but that's just me digging into semantics.

 

How could it not? The very act of having different views makes them not the same. Thelhen himself even points out things that make other clans different from his (taking in city elves) and it was one of the very things that Briala later condemned Clan Viernehn for.

[Heimdall]

How could it not? The very act of having different views makes them not the same. Thelhen himself even points out things that make other clans different from his (taking in city elves) and it was one of the very things that Briala later condemned Clan Viernehn for.

Having some differing views doesn't mean there isn't a baseline all Dalish clans agree with. In that respect, they are the same.

While some Dalish clans do take in strays, they still hold themselves above any elf that doesn't follow their traditions.

[Tranter88]

I finished TME last night (I had the VAT to do, it takes time).

 

My first observations are that I feel really sorry for Celene, betrayed by the two people she trusted the most in the world and probably her only two real friends.

 

My reason for the post though is that at the end of Origins the two groups I felt the most sorry for were the two sets of elves, who my 'main' warden had helped to win a place in Ferelden society and the Mages who he'd saved from the blade by clearing the tower and putting down the demons and blood mages.

 

Since then we've has DA2, Asunder and now the Masked Empire and at the point the last two groups I want to help are the Elves and the Mages who obviously missed the class on Ghandi at Protest School.

 

I honestly think the Celene was sincere in helping the Elves to form a kingdom in the dales again and had Michel killed Gaspard, as he should of, Briala would of been in a much better place to have that happen. Now shes got a pissed Empress, hurt ex-lover, who's going to waste no time in eradicating her people on the off chance that some of them are her spies. Interesting that she has taken in Morrigan though. Someone who we know can manipulate Eluvians herself. That safe Elven network might not be as safe as Briala might think..

[Hanako Ikezawa]

She is not the only person that saw a benefit in their civil war. Wynne did as well. I'm seriously hoping for the Elves to be able to section off part of their ancient home and become an independent nation again.

There's a difference between seeing how a civil war can work in your favor and actively spurring it on to continue. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I finished TME last night (I had the VAT to do, it takes time).

 

My first observations are that I feel really sorry for Celene, betrayed by the two people she trusted the most in the world and probably her only two real friends.

 

My reason for the post though is that at the end of Origins the two groups I felt the most sorry for were the two sets of elves, who my 'main' warden had helped to win a place in Ferelden society and the Mages who he'd saved from the blade by clearing the tower and putting down the demons and blood mages.

 

Since then we've has DA2, Asunder and now the Masked Empire and at the point the last two groups I want to help are the Elves and the Mages who obviously missed the class on Ghandi at Protest School.

 

I honestly think the Celene was sincere in helping the Elves to form a kingdom in the dales again and had Michel killed Gaspard, as he should of, Briala would of been in a much better place to have that happen. Now shes got a pissed Empress, hurt ex-lover, who's going to waste no time in eradicating her people on the off chance that some of them are her spies. Interesting that she has taken in Morrigan though. Someone who we know can manipulate Eluvians herself. That safe Elven network might not be as safe as Briala might think..

 

Celene was never going to let the elves form the own kingdom in the Dales. What she promised Briala was that she would end all restrictions on the elves of Orlais. Although, I also seriously doubt she is going to be putting the elven population to the sword because of what Briala did.

[Tranter88]

If Celene is a ruthless as a lot in this thread suggest she is, why wouldn't she slaughter elves?

 

We only have to look at history to see how paranoid dictator types 'remove' problem groups from society in brutal fashion. It's clear that once Briala set's up her Elven People's Front (Not the Peoples Front for Elves, Splitters), that any help or support she might expect from her Elven citizens in the war to keep the throne would not be forthcoming.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Because she still has feelings for Briala, and prefer not to brutally bring the hammer down unless she feels she has absolutely not other choice. I expect she's still a little too sentimental to slaughter the elven population of Orlais. She disliked the prosper of burning part of Halamshiral during a rebellion, she probably wouldn't reaper that or do worse now that it's over.