551 réponses à ce sujet

[Mistic]

How could it not? The very act of having different views makes them not the same. Thelhen himself even points out things that make other clans different from his (taking in city elves) and it was one of the very things that Briala later condemned Clan Viernehn for.

 

But where does Felassan say all Dalish are the same? I have the quote of him saying they're different:

 

"We'll have to get their loyalty clan by clan. They don't have much contact with each other. Don't want to risk an attack fro the shemlen compromising the safety of more than one clan. Of course, staying deliberately separated has led to clans growing more and more different, losing their commonalities".
 

I can spot him saying that Dalish only care about the past and that they don't care about the struggle of the City Elves. It doesn't deny the previous statement. Ok, he calls them "pompous idiots", but I wouldn't condemn a fictional character for stating an opinion that many fellow Bioware fans share. Fans that have the benefit of knowing many Dalish characters already, mind you.

 

When making generalizations, things aren't black and white, that's why I agree with TheLittleTpot. It's not "completely different" versus "completely the same", but "more or less different" versus "more or less the same". Fereldans, are all different or all the same? If you compare Fereldans between each other, they seem different; if you compare them to Orlesians, they seem all the same.

[Lebanese Dude]

I can't wait to meet Celene in DAI, if we do.

I'm utterly fascinated by her.

[Tranter88]

I liked the Celene character a lot. I imagine her to be very much like a modern day politician. She has to do little bits of evil in order to do the greater good and keep her empire safe.

 

Yes she had Briala's parents killed as part of the game, but at the same time she saved Briala's life. I would imagine she was meant to kill every servant, but couldn't kill someone she loved so much. If she hadn't done that end result is they all would of been dead by losing out in the game.

 

This is one of the reasons I don't like Briala. Celene killing her family was terrible, not disagreement there, but she also saved her life. Those saying Celene got what she deserved because of it and Briala is the innocent also seem to forget that whilst Celene ruined her life, she didn't waste much time in destroying Michel's life to suit her own ends...by playing the game to her advantage.

[Mistic]

This is one of the reasons I don't like Briala. Celene killing her family was terrible, not disagreement there, but she also saved her life. Those saying Celene got what she deserved because of it and Briala is the innocent also seem to forget that whilst Celene ruined her life, she didn't waste much time in destroying Michel's life to suit her own ends...by playing the game to her advantage.

 

Yes, Briala does the same, doesn't she? I mean, even Celene admit she's very good at the Game. So, in fact, the culprit is the Game itself. It conditions politics and social expectations in such a way that what looks as cruelty or stupidity to others is proper business in Orlais.

[Lebanese Dude]

Yes, Briala does the same, doesn't she? I mean, even Celene admit she's very good at the Game. So, in fact, the culprit is the Game itself. It conditions politics and social expectations in such a way that what looks as cruelty or stupidity to others is proper business in Orlais.

 

This is exactly what I think.

Some people here need to remove the rose-colored modern perspective of the world and inject themselves into Thedosian politics. What Celene did is perfectly normal and justified given her position. I am completely on their side when it comes to the real world, but this is a completely different setting. It needs to be treated as such. 

 

Idealism is nice, but if it came down to a life or death situation as Celene was in, I'm not so sure any of us would lay down and die. 

 

[Ianamus]

Yes, Briala does the same, doesn't she? I mean, even Celene admit she's very good at the Game. So, in fact, the culprit is the Game itself. It conditions politics and social expectations in such a way that what looks as cruelty or stupidity to others is proper business in Orlais.

 

Celene sacrificed Briala's parents to secure her power and use it to further her cause to make Orlais a cultured, progressive country. 

 

Briala sacrificed that country Celene had spent her life working on, and many human lives, in order to further her cause of freeing her people. If anything she did to Celene what Celene had done to her, but on a far larger scale. 

 

And unlike Celene, Briala had a choice. When Celene made her decision it was the only option, the only way for her to survive, while Briala had the choice of going back with Celene and becoming a lady, fighting for the Elves through diplomacy. 

 

I see Briala as more in the wrong after the events of the Masked Empire, though Celene is not an innocent by any means.

[Tranter88]

I had this sort of discussion with a friend a few years ago.

 

Something along the lines of had British Intelligence learnt of Hitlers plans and had a chance to take him out in 1938, but the only time and place was at a school visit that would kill all the children. Would it of been worth the abhorrent cause of action to stop what happen during the Second World War.

 

Benefit of hindsight would suggest that whilst terrible, on balance it would of been better for the millions who would lose their lives.

 

In Celene case, the sacrifice of a few elves allowed her to gain the throne, which in turn puts her in a position to help all elves, especially as she's obviously devoted to one of them. Would the elves have better treatment if Gaspard had gained the throne? Of course not.

[Lebanese Dude]

Celene sacrificed Briala's parents to secure her power and use it to further her cause to make Orlais a cultured, progressive country. 

 

Briala sacrificed that country Celene had spent her life working on, and many human lives, in order to further her cause of freeing her people. If anything she did to Celene what Celene had done to her, but on a far larger scale. 

 

And unlike Celene, Briala had a choice. When Celene made her decision it was the only option, the only way for her to survive, while Briala had the choice of going back with Celene and becoming a lady, fighting for the Elves through diplomacy. 

 

I see Briala as more in the wrong after the events of the Masked Empire, though Celene is not an innocent by any means.

 

[Mistic]

I had this sort of discussion with a friend a few years ago.

 

Something along the lines of had British Intelligence learnt of Hitlers plans and had a chance to take him out in 1938, but the only time and place was at a school visit that would kill all the children. Would it of been worth the abhorrent cause of action to stop what happen during the Second World War.

 

Benefit of hindsight would suggest that whilst terrible, on balance it would of been better for the millions who would lose their lives.

 

In Celene case, the sacrifice of a few elves allowed her to gain the throne, which in turn puts her in a position to help all elves, especially as she's obviously devoted to one of them. Would the elves have better treatment if Gaspard had gained the throne? Of course not.

 

The Hitler example is not very good. You're assuming you will carry on the assassination without a mistake. Given Hitler's record at surviving assassination attempts, I wouldn't bet on the British Intelligence.

 

And that brings us to the other candidate in the race for the throne: Gaspard. Why did Gaspard do all that? Because of something he himself points out several times: he doesn't plan to lose. Gaspard would say that if he had won, there would be no civil war, he would have used the Orlesian army to stop mages and templars from causing a war, and the elves wouldn't dare to cause trouble again. Everyone is happy, except the Empress and a couple loyal soldiers. A necessary sacrifice for the good of all, right? But he failed.

 

When people use the "the ends justify the means" quote they tend to forget the natural consequence of it: it's only valid if you achieve your ends; if not, your means can't be justified. Given that the Inquisitor may have the last word about these conflicts, Celene, Gaspard or Briala may end up as the justified victor.

[Tranter88]

Well I would imagine that there would of been a lot of dead mages, templars and elves. Gaspard admits freely he lacks skill in the vocal parts of the game. Using the Orlesian army would be precisely that, crush that which bothers to raise it's head under the heal of the army.

 

The Hitler analogy (yes I know that means I default lose any discussion) was assuming on success, hence why I said that had it succeeded and prevented the greater horror of World War 2, would it of been a 'worthy' thing to do for the greater good. Of course at the time you wouldn't have that benefit if hindsight, I was merely trying to point out that in doing small acts that our modern day morals find abhorrent, greater benefit can be gained. The other option was Gaspard's mailed boot on the throat of Orlais, do as I say or be crushed.

[Augustei]

Considering the Dalish clans aren't actively trying to convert anyone, and being one of them is optional (to the point where you're allowed to leave if you want to follow your own path), I don't see why you think they would try to force the elves to abandon their religion. I'm sure some of the Dalish would be wary of Andrastian elves, considering they blame the Chantry for sending missionaries and templars into their sovereign kingdom in attempts to forcibly convert them to the shemlen religion of the Maker, but I don't see them trying to convert (especially when they are different than the Andrastian faith, and the entire reason the Chantry wants to convert everyone is their belief that the Maker will return when the Chant is sung from the four corners of the world).

 

It's also entirely possible that some elves would voluntarily convert if the Dalish had control of an area where the elves could prosper, in the same way some Kirkwall elves converted to the Qun when they saw an opportunity to be more than what Andrastian society allowed them to be.

 

Some Dalish may have issues with the city elves, of course, and some city elves may have issues with the Dalish, since some of them view the Dalish as savages, and even look down on their own as 'flat ears' when they try to live outside the Alienage. There's also the Andrastian view on magic, which clashes with how the People view magic as a gift of the Creators that shouldn't be caged. All that said, I think that there could be strides for reconciliation by having them work together for the common goal of an independent Dales, where they face a common enemy who has oppressed and subjugated the Elvhen for centuries.

They dont try to actively convert because they fear the wrath of the human nations. They look down upon the city elves the "Flat Ears" and have said in every encounter in the games how when they regain a homeland they will "Teach the flatears the way of the Elven and our past" etc etc.. Sort of sounds like they will expect them to learn ancient elven culture to me, don't think they will appreciate the flat ears maintaining the culture they developted under the humans and maintaining their Andrastism (however it spelt) Will be amusing to see how they decide to run things since the Dalish consider themselves the old Nobility of the Dales, so if they want the Flat Ears to join them I guess the Dalish expect to be the ones in charge and rule over them.

Personally my PC's would rather tell The Dalish to shove it, help the city elves obtain their own state (Would probably have to be a protectorate if it has any chance of survival) And leave the Dalish to their wandering for their 2 millenium old dead culture and artifacts in their forests.

[Mistic]

They dont try to actively convert because they fear the wrath of the human nations. They look down upon the city elves the "Flat Ears" and have said in every encounter in the games how when they regain a homeland they will "Teach the flatears the way of the Elven and our past" etc etc.. Sort of sounds like they will expect them to learn ancient elven culture to me, don't think they will appreciate the flat ears maintaining the culture they developted under the humans and maintaining their Andrastism (however it spelt) Will be amusing to see how they decide to run things since the Dalish consider themselves the old Nobility of the Dales, so if they want the Flat Ears to join them I guess the Dalish expect to be the ones in charge and rule over them.

 

I have to agree on that. Maybe "religious conversion" is too strong of a word, but every clan we have met so far stresses the importance of keeping the ancient elvhen lore and every mention of the City Elves reeks of condescension, even if it's just a bit by the friendliest characters.

 

Codex entry "The City Elves"

We tell the children that the elvhen are strong, that we are a proud people, but they hear of these city elves who choose to toil under the humans' heavy hand. How do we teach them pride when they know there are others who would allow themselves to be trampled into the dust? So we tell them that these city elves are to be pitied, that they have given up on their people, given up their heritage. We tell them that some people are so used to being controlled that, when freed, they know not what to do with themselves.

 

Hahren Paivel in the Dalish origin:

We can hope to find a new home one day, where the Dalish and the flat-ears will build a land greater even than Arlathan. We shall teach the flat-ears the lore they lost... and perhaps they will teach us how to understand the shemlen at last. That is the only way we shall truly live in peace.

 

I love elvhen lore and I can't wait to play as a Dalish Inquisitor, but that attitude (how did Fenris call it? "Smug sense of superiority") won't help if an independent country for the elves is created.

[Cobra's_back]

Celene sacrificed Briala's parents to secure her power and use it to further her cause to make Orlais a cultured, progressive country. 

 

Briala sacrificed that country Celene had spent her life working on, and many human lives, in order to further her cause of freeing her people. If anything she did to Celene what Celene had done to her, but on a far larger scale. 

 

And unlike Celene, Briala had a choice. When Celene made her decision it was the only option, the only way for her to survive, while Briala had the choice of going back with Celene and becoming a lady, fighting for the Elves through diplomacy. 

 

I see Briala as more in the wrong after the events of the Masked Empire, though Celene is not an innocent by any means.

 

Your comment: "Celene sacrificed Briala's parents to secure her power and use it to further her cause to make Orlais a cultured, progressive country."

 

I don't see this at all. Celene committed a crime by murdering them. They have the right to exist and are not disposable items. If someone wants to blame it on "the game". I would agree the game has to end. Celene wasn't ending the game. She was the queen at that skill. No doubt the game is destructive, but we are all responsible for our own actions. She did indeed murder them for power.

 

 

 

Your comment: Briala sacrificed that country Celene had spent her life working on, and many human lives, in order to further her cause of freeing her people. If anything she did to Celene what Celene had done to her, but on a far larger scale. 

 

Briala actions are indirect not direct. Briala actions are no different than a civil rights leader. She used her influence on a person of power to have better laws. You can't blame the civil rights leader if they didn't get involved with or conspire to have this occur. She did not plot at that time with anyone to end Celene's power. Therefore, the final decisions was Celene's.

 

 

Your comment: "And unlike Celene, Briala had a choice. When Celene made her decision it was the only option, the only way for her to survive, while Briala had the choice of going back with Celene and becoming a lady, fighting for the Elves through diplomacy. "

 

 

Celene had a choice. She could have left the kingdom. She would not have been the only person that left that hell hole. The game is destroying that kingdom and she was not the person ending "the game". The truth is we all have a choice.  Murdering a person's parents is a venomous crime even in Dragon Age. Marc, Loghain and Loghain's dad were good examples of how someone reacts when their parents were murdered.

 

I find it hard to believe that Celene's murder can be justified and Briala at the time who lobbied the system is condemned. Could it be that everyone is fine with the inhumane treatment of Elves?

[Tranter88]

Briala isn't a Ghandi or Martin Luther King though. Shes just as much a master manipulator as Celene, she well entrenched in the game. Firstly she put the marker on Ser Michel in the first place after the warehouse incident, despite him being the loyal guardian of her lover. And then she called the marker in at a moment that destroyed everything the man held dear, his honour and duty and loyalty to his Empress. She killed Ser Michel to further he cause just as easily as Celene killed her family. And remember Celene was supposed to kill all the elves including Briala. She couldn't do that to the one she loved. Briala on the other hand didn't hesitate.

[Cobra's_back]

This is exactly what I think.

Some people here need to remove the rose-colored modern perspective of the world and inject themselves into Thedosian politics. What Celene did is perfectly normal and justified given her position. I am completely on their side when it comes to the real world, but this is a completely different setting. It needs to be treated as such. 

 

Idealism is nice, but if it came down to a life or death situation as Celene was in, I'm not so sure any of us would lay down and die. 

 

Even in Dragon Age people get upset if you murder their parents. The rose-colored has nothing to do with it. Unless you think Celene was okay with her parents being murdered. She wasn't and she wouldn't trust the person who did it.

 

I give credit to Briala that she didn't execute Celene. If it was Marc, Loghain and many of the other characters we met in Dragon Age she would have been dead.

 

Your comment:  "What Celene did is perfectly normal and justified given her position. I am completely on their side when it comes to the real world, but this is a completely different setting. It needs to be treated as such. "

 

Really. This is how someone gets hunted down and murdered. The soldiers felt they had a right to rape and murder Loghain's mom. They were following orders. Loghain's dad didn't pay enough taxes. Loghain's dad felt he had a right to hunt them down and kill each one of them. So he did. Just because your a noble doesn't mean there are no consequences for your actions. So what if Loghain's dad becomes an outlaw. He is perfectly justified in his action.

[Cobra's_back]

Briala isn't a Ghandi or Martin Luther King though. Shes just as much a master manipulator as Celene, she well entrenched in the game. Firstly she put the marker on Ser Michel in the first place after the warehouse incident, despite him being the loyal guardian of her lover. And then she called the marker in at a moment that destroyed everything the man held dear, his honour and duty and loyalty to his Empress. She killed Ser Michel to further he cause just as easily as Celene killed her family. And remember Celene was supposed to kill all the elves including Briala. She couldn't do that to the one she loved. Briala on the other hand didn't hesitate.

 

Who said she was Ghandi or Martin Luther King? That is not what i said at all. I used the word Lobby and civil rights for a reason. That is what she is technically doing. 

 

Do you think civil rights leaders haven't learned the system and used it?

 

civil rights: the rights that every person should have regardless of his or her sex, race, or religion. She is lobbying for elves rights.

[Urazz]

Big thing is that all 3 leaders of the sides of the Orlesian Civil War are not innocent and have despicable things.  Personally, I think it's going to come down to what each person's goals are if they win the war.  Here's what I think of each person so far:

 

Briala seems more focused on freeing the elves and getting them a home.  She doesn't seem to have a goal on what to do after that I think and I think that is important.  To me she has the best immediate moral ground for winning the war but her lack of planning for what would happen afterwards would probably lead to chaos.

 

Gaspard seems very patriotic  and honorable but he is more militaristic in how he deals with problems it looks like.  I also think that he if did win he'd tried to invade Fereldan again to regain Orlais' old territory.

 

Celene would probably go back to her old plan of trying to get Orlais more progressive. She's ruthless and scheming in getting what she wants but is pretty much has good goals for people.  She reminds a bit like Bhelen from DA:O where he was ruthless and scheming as well but had the good of his people in mind.  I actually think she would try to free the elves from being second class citizens eventually or at least get Orlais progressive enough that they would be willing to accept such an idea.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

But where does Felassan say all Dalish are the same? I have the quote of him saying they're different:

 

"We'll have to get their loyalty clan by clan. They don't have much contact with each other. Don't want to risk an attack fro the shemlen compromising the safety of more than one clan. Of course, staying deliberately separated has led to clans growing more and more different, losing their commonalities".
 

I can spot him saying that Dalish only care about the past and that they don't care about the struggle of the City Elves. It doesn't deny the previous statement. Ok, he calls them "pompous idiots", but I wouldn't condemn a fictional character for stating an opinion that many fellow Bioware fans share. Fans that have the benefit of knowing many Dalish characters already, mind you.

 

When making generalizations, things aren't black and white, that's why I agree with TheLittleTpot. It's not "completely different" versus "completely the same", but "more or less different" versus "more or less the same". Fereldans, are all different or all the same? If you compare Fereldans between each other, they seem different; if you compare them to Orlesians, they seem all the same.

 

He talks about them as if they were all the same and even sort of explains that as the reason the Dalish won't help them. He says they are all pompous idiots. He says none of them care about the city elves. He says they all don't care about the present. And yeah I would condemn a fictional character for generalizing an entire people as pompous idiots who only care about the past, because even if many Bioware fans have that opinion, that opinion is still wrong. Even among the Dalish the belief that they universally don't care about the present or future and are slavishly devoted to the past is simply untrue. It's the root of the whole conflict between Merrill and Marethari. The Keeper thought it was best to leave some secrets in the past because they are dangerous enough to threaten their children. Said as much in both Origins and DA 2.

[Ianamus]

Your comment: "Celene sacrificed Briala's parents to secure her power and use it to further her cause to make Orlais a cultured, progressive country."

 

I don't see this at all. Celene committed a crime by murdering them. They have the right to exist and are not disposable items. If someone wants to blame it on "the game". I would agree the game has to end. Celene wasn't ending the game. She was the queen at that skill. No doubt the game is destructive, but we are all responsible for our own actions. She did indeed murder them for power.

 

Briala committed a crime as well. Deliberately extending wars is warmongering, and betraying her Empress was a crime.

 

Celene did not murder them herself, she hired assassins to do so. She is still responsible for it, yes, but it brings us nicely on to our next point... 

 

 

Briala actions are indirect not direct. Briala actions are no different than a civil rights leader. She used her influence on a person of power to have better laws. You can't blame the civil rights leader if they didn't get involved with or conspire to have this occur. She did not plot at that time with anyone to end Celene's power. Therefore, the final decisions was Celene's.

 

I don't understand the rest of what you're trying to say here, but I'll respond to the bolded part:

 

Just as Celenes were. Celene did not directly kill Briala's partents with her own hands, and Briala did not directly destroy the empire Celene had built with her own two hands. What Celene did do was arrange that assains would kill all of her servants, which resulted in the death of Briala's parents, and what Briala did was make certain that the Orlesian civil was long and bloody, which would result in the destruction of everything Celene had built, when she could have easily seen it ended. 

 

Celene had a choice. She could have left the kingdom. She would not have been the only person that left that hell hole. The game is destroying that kingdom and she was not the person ending "the game". The truth is we all have a choice.  Murdering a person's parents is a venomous crime even in Dragon Age. Marc, Loghain and Loghain's dad were good examples of how someone reacts when their parents were murdered.

 

She had absolutely no choice. Were she to flee the country assassins would be sent to kill her so that she was no longer a threat to whoever wanted to claim the throne, since she was next in line. Or, more likely, Lady Mantillon would have killed her there and then. She says this herself in the book. 

 

 

I find it hard to believe that Celene's murder can be justified and Briala at the time who lobbied the system is condemned. Could it be that everyone is fine with the inhumane treatment of Elves?

 

 

You'll have to rephrase this, because I don't understand what on earth your talking about. 

[rubynorman]

The Hitler example is not very good. You're assuming you will carry on the assassination without a mistake. Given Hitler's record at surviving assassination attempts, I wouldn't bet on the British Intelligence.
 
And that brings us to the other candidate in the race for the throne: Gaspard. Why did Gaspard do all that? Because of something he himself points out several times: he doesn't plan to lose. Gaspard would say that if he had won, there would be no civil war, he would have used the Orlesian army to stop mages and templars from causing a war, and the elves wouldn't dare to cause trouble again. Everyone is happy, except the Empress and a couple loyal soldiers. A necessary sacrifice for the good of all, right? But he failed.
 
When people use the "the ends justify the means" quote they tend to forget the natural consequence of it: it's only valid if you achieve your ends; if not, your means can't be justified. Given that the Inquisitor may have the last word about these conflicts, Celene, Gaspard or Briala may end up as the justified victor.

It wasn't just about the Civil war or the mage/templar war, if Gaspard gets the throne, he intends to go to war with Ferelden, Nevara and crush the last of the Dales too IIRC
 

Your comment: "Celene sacrificed Briala's parents to secure her power and use it to further her cause to make Orlais a cultured, progressive country."

I don't see this at all. Celene committed a crime by murdering them. They have the right to exist and are not disposable items. If someone wants to blame it on "the game". I would agree the game has to end. Celene wasn't ending the game. She was the queen at that skill. No doubt the game is destructive, but we are all responsible for our own actions. She did indeed murder them for power.

As she said in the book "I was sixteen, Bria. The Game had just killed my mother, and my father had just died avenging her. I would have been killed had I not proven myself worthy to Lady Mantillon. For all I knew, you would have all died with me!"

>> Do you think a 16 years old orphaned girl who is a heir of the throne in Orlais can claim it without someone backing her up. I don't think the other nobles cared about whether she wanted the Throne. They saw her as a threat anyway. They killed her parents, she would have been killed sooner or later. If she had given up the Throne, her parents would have died for nothing. I admit she was selfish and the servant's blood was in her hand but it was the logical choice in the Game. And she didn't kill Bria, it proved that she still had something in her heart...

[Lenimph]

I haven't read the entire thread so I might probably be reiterating what someone else has already said but this is how I see it. 

 

If Celene didn't secure her role in the game it is likely both her and Briala would already be dead and we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. 

 

I feel like people are giving Briala a lot of slack but she participated in the game as much as Celene did, often manipulated Celene into seeing her political views, and betrayed her after they loved each other for many years rather then before. 

 

At the end of the novel I think it's clear that Celene was for more dependent on Briala's companionship and love then vice versa, and being that I feel more sympathy for Celene (who I think wasn't given much of a choice in the death of Briala's parents, and had just lost her own at a young confusing age, clouding her own judgment) I want to see her happy, and I think that is with Briala at her side.  

 

I think they're on a pretty even playing field, and love makes people very stupid sometimes, though sometimes I wonder honestly if Briala loved Celene or loved that Celene helped the elves and loved her.   

[Cobra's_back]

@ Lanamus:

 

Your Comment: She did not murder them herself, she hired assassins to do so. She is still responsible for it, yes, but it brings us nicely on to our next point... 

 

Hiring assassins to kill some one makes Celene directly responsible for the action. The assassins were paid by Celene. True no one cares for the life of an Elf but another Elf. That doesn't mean the Elf has to condone the death of their parents.

 

Your Comment: Briala did was make certain that the Orlesian civil was long and bloody, which would result in the destruction of everything Celene had built, when she could have easily seen it ended. 

 

Your comment: Briala sacrificed that country Celene had spent her life working on, and many human lives, in order to further her cause of freeing her people. If anything she did to Celene what Celene had done to her, but on a far larger scale. 

 

 

This is sensitive to timeline. Briala is planning to do this at the end of the book. What happen first? This is why I used "at the time" . Her original approach was to lobby for civil rights. She didn't get involved with or conspire to have Celene overthrown. The final decision to make the civil changes were Celene's.  Therefore, Celene is responsible. She could have said no.

 

Briala at the end of the book changes her approach from lobbying to prolonging the Orlesian civil war.

 

 

Your comment: "She had absolutely no choice. Were she to flee the country assassins would be sent to kill her so that she was no longer a threat to whoever wanted to claim the throne, since she was next in line. She says this herself in the book."

 

Actually the book said her cousin would marry her off. 

 

 

My comment: "I find it hard to believe that Celene's murder can be justified and Briala at the time who lobbied the system is condemned. Could it be that everyone is fine with the inhumane treatment of Elves?"

 

This means that her "original plan" was to lobby civil rights for Elves. Not a crime in my book. "Celene's murder can be justified" because she had to. I don't think so. Nor am i fine with the inhumane treatment of Elves. Briala didn't do any wrong when she lobbied for better treatment of Elves. Celene did something legal but cruel when she had Briala's parents murdered. Briala doesn't have to take it or understand it was necessary.

[Cobra's_back]

>> Do you think a 16 years old orphaned girl who is a heir of the throne in Orlais can claim it without someone backing her up. I don't think the other nobles cared about whether she wanted the Throne. They saw her as a threat anyway. They killed her parents, she would have been killed sooner or later. If she had given up the Throne, her parents would have died for nothing. I admit she was selfish and the servant's blood was in her hand but it was the logical choice in the Game. And she didn't kill Bria, it proved that she still had something in her heart...

 

I would agree she was selfish. To murder a person's parents then sleep with them for 20 years takes the medal  "Ruthless Deceptive Award". 

[Cobra's_back]

I haven't read the entire thread so I might probably be reiterating what someone else has already said but this is how I see it. 

 

If Celene didn't secure her role in the game it is likely both her and Briala would already be dead and we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place. 

 

I feel like people are giving Briala a lot of slack but she participated in the game as much as Celene did, often manipulated Celene into seeing her political views, and betrayed her after they loved each other for many years rather then before. 

 

At the end of the novel I think it's clear that Celene was for more dependent on Briala's companionship and love then vice versa, and being that I feel more sympathy for Celene (who I think wasn't given much of a choice in the death of Briala's parents, and had just lost her own at a young confusing age, clouding her own judgment) I want to see her happy, and I think that is with Briala at her side.  

 

I think they're on a pretty even playing field, and love makes people very stupid sometimes, though sometimes I wonder honestly if Briala loved Celene or loved that Celene helped the elves and loved her.   

 

 

Actually most people didn't support her killing Briala's parents and then sleeping with her for 20 years never telling her the truth. 

 

As for Briala her original plan wasn't a bad one. What part of lobbying is wrong? Is it equal to murdering someone's parent? Now things have changed and sides will have to be taken.

[G. Recruit]

I didn't knew that the DA setting was shifted from Thedas to Central Florida.

I meant orlais. I was typing on my kindle and it autocorrect.