13 réponses à ce sujet

[Jazinto]

For those who didn't know the Viscount's son was gay or bisexual:

Spoiler

David Gaider mentioned:

 

So we should, what? Have a pair of ambient elves in the market who talk publicly about how much they like both men and women? A codex entry where Brother Genitivi discusses "Sexuality in Thedas"?

It's not something that comes up because it's private-- and also because there are no terms that exist in that era. In our own history, the need to study and categorize sexuality didn't come about until the late 19th century... prior to that, it wasn't even a concept. The act was considered far more relevant than the impulse. So when it comes up outside of the player's personal experience, it's going to be either vague or implied (such as Wade & Herren, Branka & Hespith or the Viscount's son).

 

 

You're playing to nice with those things. I'll wager you've gone even further than that. Haven't you, brat?

 

Skip to 4:42

 

We were both seeking something. That was enough.

 

(Dragon Age Wiki Discussion on this topic.)

 

The Viscount's son Saemus is killed.

(Ashaad, possibly Seamus' lover, is killed.)

Anders' former lover Karl can be killed.

Anders can be killed.

Fenris can be killed.

 

 

They're never killed directly in context with their sexuality, but I don't think it's a good thing that all gay and bisexual men are/can be killed.

The player decides. And the player can decide for whatever reason. This means homophobes who want to kill all gay people can actually live out that fantasy ingame.

[The Uncanny]

The Viscount's son Saemus is killed.

(Ashaad, possibly Seamus' lover, is killed.)

Anders' former lover Karl can be killed.

Anders can be killed.

Fenris can be killed.

 

 

They're never killed directly in context with their sexuality, but I don't think it's a good thing that all gay and bisexual men are/can be killed.

The player decides. And the player can decide for whatever reason. This means homophobes who want to kill all gay people can actually live out that fantasy ingame.

 

Okay... that is certainly interesting. Can all those things happen in the same playthrough? Anders and Fenris can be killed in the same playthrough? If so, I'm surprised and didn't realise that.

 

What concerns me here is that Seamus, Ashad and Karl have all been included. You're talking about player choice and they surely do not meet that criteria? They all die as scripted events, not from player interaction.

 

Them excluded we're essentially talking about two party characters. And, to stretch the point, all party characters can die.

[Jazinto]

If Seamus would live, then not all gay or bisexual male characters would end up dead. There would be a gay/bi man alive regardless of what the player chooses to do with Anders, Fenris and Karl, thus defying the people who want to see all gay characters dead.
Instead Seamus is killed and the player can choose to kill the rest. Potentially killing all gay/bisexual men in the game.

According to Dragon Age Wiki Fenris leaves the party in the end if Hawke sides with the mages unless there is a 100% friendship or rivalry and his personal quest was finished. That's enough to kill Fenris. You can kill Anders even if you side with the mages.

I don't think it was Bioware's intention to allow a homophobe to live out their fantasy, but authorial intent doesn't count for much. I realize that a lot of people die or can die in Dragon Age II. But if find the fact that all gay or bisexual male characters in the game either are killed or can be killed noteworthy at least. It reminds me of the old hollywood rule that all gay characters must die before the movie ends. If somebody wants to apply this rule DAII they can.

[Rowe]

 

The Viscount's son Saemus is killed.

(Ashaad, possibly Seamus' lover, is killed.)

Anders' former lover Karl can be killed.

Anders can be killed.

Fenris can be killed.

 

 

 

I never thought about that! At what point can you kill Fenris? 

 

Also, in DAO you can kill Zevran rather than recruiting him! Scary! Glad I'm not in a DA game, I'd be dead for sure...

[Sherbet Lemon]

I will say that it SERIOUSLY disturbed me that by ignoring Steve (in ME3) and not being his friend, his death is essentially caused.  I'm not sure what the intent was there, but it seriously rubbed me the wrong way.  That is so problematic it doesn't even have words.  No to take the discussion away from Dragon Age, but in that instance it is part of the problem on which you're speaking.

[Jazinto]

I didn't even know that about Cortez. He and Zevran are part of the same problem. But you would have to know about Zevran being bisexual before you met him to kill him.

[Rowe]

I will say that it SERIOUSLY disturbed me that by ignoring Steve (in ME3) and not being his friend, his death is essentially caused.  I'm not sure what the intent was there, but it seriously rubbed me the wrong way.  That is so problematic it doesn't even have words.  No to take the discussion away from Dragon Age, but in that instance it is part of the problem on which you're speaking.

 

I didn't know that! Is that something that can happen at the end of the game?

[Sherbet Lemon]

Yes.  This is direct from the Mass Effect wiki:

 

 

If Steve was never interacted with much, he dies when his shuttle gets shot during the final assault on Earth. He cannot be contacted and James confirms Cortez's death. Much later, if Shepard uses the Crucible, Steve's name is listed in the Normandy's Memorial Wall as Steven Cortez.

 

If you don't persuade him to visit the Memorial Wall, he dies.  I first heard about it because people were making fun of Ashely and Kaidan's voice acting and I had the same reaction in that I didn't know he could die.  When it happens, only the human squad members respond.  It seriously bothered me because I remember people were posting saying things like "you don't have to talk to him and if you don't he dies."  It was really gross. 

 

Here is the video:

 

[Jazinto]

Wow... 

 

What is the point of him dying? If Bioware wants the player to feel bad for the death of a character, they have to make the player care for that character. If the player doesn't talk to Steve, then they won't know him. He'll just be a random crew member killed with no emotional response from the player. If the player does talk to him, finds out he's gay and then stops talking to him then Steve is killed to either no emotional response or to a happy response of a homophobic player.

 

It's like Bioware is leaving the door open for homophobes.

"Don't mind our homosexuals! If you don't like them, you can kill them all!"

"You don't like homosexuals? No problem! Just avoid Cortez like the dirty plague he is and we'll kill that evil homosexual for you!"

 

If Steve was the only case, I would say okay, whatever, but it's not just him. Kaidan can be killed as well. Just like all the other gay and bisexual male characters.

[The Uncanny]

If Seamus would live, then not all gay or bisexual male characters would end up dead. There would be a gay/bi man alive regardless of what the player chooses to do with Anders, Fenris and Karl, thus defying the people who want to see all gay characters dead.
Instead Seamus is killed and the player can choose to kill the rest. Potentially killing all gay/bisexual men in the game.

 

If we're including characters by implication, then how about Seneschal Bran?

 

I know that the moment I'm referring to is about as well handled as a boot to  the face, but it still implies what it implies.

 

This does make me wonder how many explicitly (or even implicitly) lesbian or bi women characters there are in the game other than Isabela and Hawkesexual Merrill.

[Jazinto]

If we're including characters by implication, then how about Seneschal Bran?

 

I know that the moment I'm referring to is about as well handled as a boot to  the face, but it still implies what it implies.

 

This does make me wonder how many explicitly (or even implicitly) lesbian or bi women characters there are in the game other than Isabela and Hawkesexual Merrill.

 

I haven't played MotA. I didn't know about this. Seredipity seems to be a drag queen? But would be transgender in real life? I certainly don't think every man who sleeps with pre-op mtf transgender person (I think those are the terms? I'm not sure.) is bisexual, let alone gay. But Serendipity is apparently male. I suppose counting Seneschal Bran in the DLC not necessarily every gay or bisexual male character dies, just most of them. It's still not a great record across these last few Bioware games.

[The Uncanny]

I haven't played MotA. I didn't know about this. Seredipity seems to be a drag queen? But would be transgender in real life? I certainly don't think every man who sleeps with pre-op mtf transgender person (I think those are the terms? I'm not sure.) is bisexual, let alone gay. But Serendipity is apparently male. I suppose counting Seneschal Bran in the DLC not necessarily every gay or bisexual male character dies, just most of them. It's still not a great record across these last few Bioware games.

 

The Dragon Age wiki suggests that Serendipity is a 'drag queen', yes. I'm not saying that anything specific can be read into this interaction, just that there is an inference the audience... sorry, the player I should say, is given.

 

I get that it is a little tenuous, but we're going by vague insinuation when it comes to Seamus and Ashaad too.

 

But you're right about a poor record of representation. The Branka/Hespith thing still makes my blood run cold.

[Jazinto]

The Dragon Age wiki suggests that Serendipity is a 'drag queen', yes. I'm not saying that anything specific can be read into this interaction, just that there is an inference the audience... sorry, the player I should say, is given.

 

I get that it is a little tenuous, but we're going by vague insinuation when it comes to Seamus and Ashaad too.

 

But you're right about a poor record of representation. The Branka/Hespith thing still makes my blood run cold.

 

Well for Seamus we have the dialogue and David Gaider's word.

 

When I wrote this I almost wrote about generally non-straight characters, because you can kill Branka and Kelly as well, but Leliana survives and I'm not sure if you can kill Isabela, so I didn't go with the "all non-straight characters can be killed," but Branka and Kelly definitely belong in the same category. I suppose Hespith is similar to Seamus, killed by script.

[The Uncanny]

Well for Seamus we have the dialogue and David Gaider's word.

 

When I wrote this I almost wrote about generally non-straight characters, because you can kill Branka and Kelly as well, but Leliana survives and I'm not sure if you can kill Isabela, so I didn't go with the "all non-straight characters can be killed," but Branka and Kelly definitely belong in the same category. I suppose Hespith is similar to Seamus, killed by script.

 

You can kill Leliana. It just gets conveniently ignored in DA2.

 

In mentioning Branka and Hespith I was actually referring more to that quest as a whole, its misogynistic undertone and less to the more reductive cataloguing of who can and can't be killed off.

 

And I have no idea what David Gaider said. I can only judge from what is in the game. And what is in the game is implied not directly expressed.