29 réponses à ce sujet

[Maclimes]

Elves, Dwarves, and Humans

 

Back in the days of DA:Origins, when the only relevant races were Elves, Dwarves, and Humans (Qunari had not really been fleshed out yet), David Gaider responded to a post about various cross-breeding. (I cannot find this post, so if anyone knows the link, I'd happily edit this post to add it in).

 

Basically: When Elves breed with anything, the outcome is always the other race. So...

 

* Elf + Human = Human

* Elf + Dwarf = Dwarf

 

The only remaining combination from the main three is Dwarf + Human. That results in a legitimate cross-breed, basically a tall dwarf or short human. Gaider said that although that person would be ostracized in traditional Dwarven communities (like Orzammar), they fit right in on the surface, and have little trouble being part of Thedas society at large. It also helps that there is very little institutional racism against Dwarves (unlike Elves).

 

All of that is confirmed by David Gaider, not speculation.

 

So What About Qunari?

 

My theory is that it's not possible to cross-breed with a Qunari. I believe that Elves, Dwarves, and Humans are all sub-species of the same overall species. They all have the same range of skin tones and hair, bone structure, and everything. Elves are slightly smaller with pointed ears, and dwarves are shorter and stockier. But they're basically the same.

 

But Qunari are different. They have horns. They can have blue and grey skin tones. They are MUCH larger. Not to mention the Qunari come from a distant land. Elves, Dwarves, and Humans are all from the same area. It's very likely that Qunari are not part of the same genetic family as the other three (or at least are VERY far removed). Hence, they cannot cross-breed with the other known races.

 

Chart for simplicity (It's a very simplified chart, not meant to represent the complexity of genetics, just give a general concept):

 

 

Addendum: Unlucky Elves

 

As for the Elves always being on the short end of the genetic stick: I assume it has to do with the theme of "loss" surrounding the Elves. They've lost their immortality, their ancient culture, their ancestral lands (twice). They are always poor and downtrodden and bitter (whether Dalish or Alienage). It makes sense that part of that loss carries on to even their very genetics and appearance. It's just one more things the Elves have lost/are losing.

 

 

If anyone has any evidence to the contrary for this theory, I'd love to hear it. For now, though, it makes the most sense. And in my mind puts all the questions about half-breeds to rest.

[In Exile]

This is fantasy. Cross-breeding works on completely made-up and nonsense rules, since IRL the fact that two groups can breed is what we take as proof that they're so closely genetically related that we can justifiably consider them the same species. But fantasy doesn't want to say that "races" are the same species - they want to say that they're cross-breeding separate species, creating in-effect hybrids. The fact that the Qunari are phenotypically different doesn't mean anything. 

So in this regard I don't think there's any basis to say we can't have "half" qunari. 

 

On the elf point, there's no evidence the elves were ever immortal, or that they "lost" something when they ostensibly started again, other than e.g. whatever spell or blood magic ritual they used for their long lives (if they had them) to start. 

[Maclimes]

Regarding the Elves, I was more referring to the theme/character of the race: One of loss and being perpetually the losers. Not necessarily the (fictional) historical facts. It's more a meta-level thing, not a cause-and-effect in-universe thing.

 

And you're right, it is just fantasy. I was just trying to give one possible explanation. I genuinely suspect that we'll get some more clarification on the Qunari thing in Inquisition. Because if the Inquisitor is a Qunari, and his romance partner is not, it's not impossible that some line of dialogue will reveal hints about their breeding possibilities (such as "But if we're together, we could never have children ... " or "I fear that our future half-blood offspring would be ostracized ... ").

[calvinien]

I'm just wondering about Feynriel and Danarius. Both of them are supposed to be human but CLEARLY have some elven features. Alistair and slim couldry on the otherhand look human entirely.

 

So is it that most mixed race children resemble humans but a few retain some elven features...or did their non elven parents actually have soem elven blood in them that reasserted itself in the offsrping.

[Maclimes]

Gaider called them elf-blooded humans (or elf-blooded dwarves): They're not half-elves, they're humans with elven traits. He also mentioned that if an elf-blooded human bred with an elf, you'd STILL get an elf-blooded human. It was a good read. Wish I could find it again.

 

Perhaps some small traits re-assert themselves (like with Feynriel). But they're still consider "human with elf traits" not "half human/half elf".

[WardenWade]

Gaider called them elf-blooded humans (or elf-blooded dwarves): They're not half-elves, they're humans with elven traits. He also mentioned that if an elf-blooded human bred with an elf, you'd STILL get an elf-blooded human. It was a good read. Wish I could find it again.

 

Perhaps some small traits re-assert themselves (like with Feynriel). But they're still consider "human with elf traits" not "half human/half elf".

These may help a bit?  One of them quoted the original forums regarding elf-blooded traits, but did not unfortunately have a direct link:

 

http://forum.bioware...lf-races/page-2

 

http://forum.bioware...spoilers/page-2

 

http://forum.bioware...back/?bioware=1

 

http://forum.bioware...blooded-humans/

 

The elf-blooded page on the DA wiki may help a bit as well, in terms of outside sources..?

 

http://dragonage.wik...iki/Elf-blooded

[wcholcombe]

I am going to say Kossith and non kossith cannot successfully reproduce. Just my vibe from everything.

[xarthas2]

Pretty much what others already said in the thread. Although it's reasonable to think that humans, elfs and dwarfs are closed relatives than qunari, and therefore the chances that qunari can have offspring with any of the three is smaller, it will remain open until stated otherwise by the writers. Also, a couple of notes.

 

First, even in our unmagic world, looks can be deceiving regarding evolutionary closeness between two species.

 

Second; oddly enough, in the seminal work of fantasy fiction, Lord of the Rings, the relationship between the different species aren't exactily what you could imagine, since elfs are much related to orcs than to humans, for example.

 

Third: in the links WardenWade has posted in this thread Gaider favored magic explanations over genetic ones regarding this issue. Which, as a biologist, seems fine to me   .

 

So, expect the unexpected, my fellows.

[Lebanese Dude]

I actually believe that Qunari are mutated elves. They have both draconic and Elven features. Perhaps some elves did some experiments involving dragon blood?

Perhaps humans are an offshoot of dwarves that stayed too long on the surface.

So many theories!

[Wolfen09]

it was my understanding that having a half blood between an elf and a human was uncommon, borderline rare... but a dwarf and an elf was impossible due to the low fertility rate of the dwarves...  same goes for a dwarf and a human... however the case with morrigan can be made... but the chances of conceiving for a grey warden are slim and top that off with interspecies makes it even less likely of happening which means she had a magical way to induce such a thing

[Sir Froggie]

Sandal is said to be born from a dwarf/human union. Then there's the story of Luthias the Dwarf-son, who's name doesn't leave a whole lot to the imagination.

[wcholcombe]

it was my understanding that having a half blood between an elf and a human was uncommon, borderline rare... but a dwarf and an elf was impossible due to the low fertility rate of the dwarves...  same goes for a dwarf and a human... however the case with morrigan can be made... but the chances of conceiving for a grey warden are slim and top that off with interspecies makes it even less likely of happening which means she had a magical way to induce such a thing

Its very unlikely, but not impossible.

[Maclimes]

Pretty much what others already said in the thread. Although it's reasonable to think that humans, elfs and dwarfs are closed relatives than qunari, and therefore the chances that qunari can have offspring with any of the three is smaller, it will remain open until stated otherwise by the writers. 

 

Yes, exactly. I'm not trying to say, "My way is the correct way". It's just one of many competing and valid theories.

[Osena109]

I don't  like the Term  half breed my self  its vary how do i  say racist

[Vaseldwa]

I was writing my fanfic and I was starting a romance between my female dwarf and Maaras and about busted a gut when picturing a dwarf with Qunari horns lol

 

[Maria Caliban]

But Qunari are different. They have horns. They can have blue and grey skin tones. They are MUCH larger. Not to mention the Qunari come from a distant land. Elves, Dwarves, and Humans are all from the same area.

Humans and Qunari are both from a distant land. Elves and Dwarves seem to be the original inhabitants of Thedas, though they could have migrated there as well.

[Dean_the_Young]

Humans and Qunari are both from a distant land. Elves and Dwarves seem to be the original inhabitants of Thedas, though they could have migrated there as well.

 

Do we know that Humans are from a distant land? Qunari are established as having sailed over, but I can't recall Humans having ever been said so.

 

Considering some Dev comments about elf-human breeding that suggest that elvenhood might be an artificial/magical state, I have a personal theory that humans might be a off-shoot of the elves. Elves that naturally or were artificially 'quickened', leading to the racial curruption and eventual divide.

[EmperorSahlertz]

This is fantasy. Cross-breeding works on completely made-up and nonsense rules, since IRL the fact that two groups can breed is what we take as proof that they're so closely genetically related that we can justifiably consider them the same species. But fantasy doesn't want to say that "races" are the same species - they want to say that they're cross-breeding separate species, creating in-effect hybrids. The fact that the Qunari are phenotypically different doesn't mean anything. 

So in this regard I don't think there's any basis to say we can't have "half" qunari. 

 

On the elf point, there's no evidence the elves were ever immortal, or that they "lost" something when they ostensibly started again, other than e.g. whatever spell or blood magic ritual they used for their long lives (if they had them) to start. 

Donkeys and horses, and tigers and lions can breed and they are not the same species. The concept is not entirely alien, though yes, much of it in a fantasy setting is based on nonsense.

[In Exile]

Do we know that Humans are from a distant land? Qunari are established as having sailed over, but I can't recall Humans having ever been said so.

 

Considering some Dev comments about elf-human breeding that suggest that elvenhood might be an artificial/magical state, I have a personal theory that humans might be a off-shoot of the elves. Elves that naturally or were artificially 'quickened', leading to the racial curruption and eventual divide.

 

The elves, at least, say that humans aren't native to Ferelden. This is what the DA wiki says (citing the DA:II guide at p. 248 as a source): 

 

"Some scholars believe that the first humans in Thedas came from the rainforests of Par Vollen many thousands of years ago, migrating south from the archipelago. The pyramids they built still stand to this day and are regarded by travelers to the region as true wonders." 

[In Exile]

Donkeys and horses, and tigers and lions can breed and they are not the same species. The concept is not entirely alien, though yes, much of it in a fantasy setting is based on nonsense.

 

Their offspring aren't fertile. In this case, the offspring of humans and elves (for example) are fertile. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Their offspring aren't fertile. In this case, the offspring of humans and elves (for example) are fertile. 

In this case it is also nonsense, since the offspring of two differnet specieis would enver be one of either species. So we arrive at the conclusion: fantasy nonsense geneology.

[ShadowLordXII]

You know, concerning elven "magic-laced" genetics, I do have a theory.

 

It's possible that the Tevinter Imperium or even the reportedly oppressive upper-scale of elven society were behind this. Gaider states that the adaptability of elves has more to do with magic than with science, so here's my 2 cents from either culprit.

 

1) Tevinter

 

From the start, the Imperium wanted to conquer the elves, but didn't initially want to do so with force. So, the magisters manipulated the blood of particular humans so that when they breed with elves, the offspring would usually be human. If any pairing resulted in a "half-elf", that child was killed along with the pair to strengthen the human genome. Once the elves caught wind of the plan, they broke off connections which the Imperium used as an excuse to conquer the elves.

 

After Elvhaven was destroyed, the Imperium's magisters continued this practice as yet another means of demeaning the elves until the whole "elf+human=human" thing became embedded into the dna of almost every elf.

 

2) the Elven mages

 

They probably didn't trust the Imperium, with good reason, and likely would've wanted to discourage any potential formation of a connection. Therefore, they subtlely altered the dna of elves so that not only would any child that they have with humans turns out to be human, but that they would be more susceptible to human diseases and bacteria which would give them a premature death.

 

Once this fear took enough root, the elves cut off ties with the Imperium, but underestimated Tevinter's response and the rest is history.

 

3) A possible reversal

 

So here's my thought. My theory aside, is it theoretically possible to use magic to "strengthen" elven dna? Perhaps not immediately, but since magic is why elves have such adaptable dna that it's somewhat harmful to their race's longevity, surely magic can reverse it?

 

Though, there's always the question of: Even if it was possible, why would you want to do that? And you could go pro or negative in an argument regarding this for various reasons.

[MisanthropePrime]

With the massive eugenics program of the Qunari, I'd like to think that, if they could interbreed with other races, we'd have seen them already. If elves are lithe and dextrous, we'd see more Qunari-elf hybrids (or elf-blooded Qunari) as archers and assassins, but we don't: we see Qunari and Elves, but no hybrids.

[thetinyevil]

Their offspring aren't fertile. In this case, the offspring of humans and elves (for example) are fertile. 

Actually they do produce fertile offspring. 

[Maclimes]

With the massive eugenics program of the Qunari, I'd like to think that, if they could interbreed with other races, we'd have seen them already. If elves are lithe and dextrous, we'd see more Qunari-elf hybrids (or elf-blooded Qunari) as archers and assassins, but we don't: we see Qunari and Elves, but no hybrids.

 

THIS is a very good point. Qunari are all about breeding for perfection and specific roles. You'd think that if they could, they'd have been breeding special half-breeds already. Qunari/Dwarves for mining and other work in small spaces. Qunari/Elves for scouting and rogues. Qunari/Humans for being slightly less boring versions of Humans.