28 réponses à ce sujet

[bjuandy]

Given all the interviews and statements released, not to mention current speculation on online integration and multiplayer, it doesn't seem that a toolset will be provided for the modding community. I would encourage Bioware to reconsider this and look at the mod nexus, and even BSN for the exact reasons why. From convenience like a UI for all items and seeing the what was typed in the developer console to a crafting system like The Winter Forge by Phaenan, DA:O was richer for the content the community provided. The community has also cooperated with Bioware in not interfering with DLC releases. Given all the potential good mod support can provide, what are Bioware's concerns with giving mod support? Is it pressure from console manufacturers? Fear that too much of Frostbyte 3's code will be leaked to the competition? Cuts in DLC sales?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Frostbyte relies on a lot of middleware.  EA has a license to use this middleware, but not distribute it.  So unless the toolset were sold along with such a license (which would make it prohibitively expensive), they can't release a toolset.

 

However, that doesn't mean they can't take steps to make the game more mod friendly.  Things like their traditional override folder, for example.

[bjuandy]

Frostbyte relies on a lot of middleware.  EA has a license to use this middleware, but not distribute it.  So unless the toolset were sold along with such a license (which would make it prohibitively expensive), they can't release a toolset.

 

However, that doesn't mean they can't take steps to make the game more mod friendly.  Things like their traditional override folder, for example.

Okay, that makes more sense. Has anyone familiar with the Battlefield community been able to mod the game outside the standard skin changes?

[Shapeshifter777]

While I agree with you, OP, and would LOVE a modding toolset to help keep this game alive for the next decade, they already told us that it would cost them a ton of money to get a license to distribute the tools due to the new engine.  I think the best we can hope for at this point is console commands that let us tweak the game to our heart's content as that would not be violating any contracts regarding the game engine.

 

Bioware employees, if you are reading this PLEASE let us have console commands on par with what we had in DA:O and 2.  There's no shapeshifting spells in the game and I will cry if I can't at least use the SetAppearance command to shapeshift.   lol, please help your long and loyal PC fans out.

 

Or perhaps a savegame/appearance/inventory/spell editor such as what the original Dragon Age: Origins toolset could do?  I know that's an editor, but I don't believe that would violate your contract with DICE, would it?  Hahah, I just need some way to get satisfaction from modifying stuff that I have had the drive for since I was old enough to talk.

[bjuandy]

 

Or perhaps a savegame/appearance/inventory/spell editor such as what the original Dragon Age: Origins toolset could do?  I know that's an editor, but I don't believe that would violate your contract with DICE, would it?  Hahah, I just need some way to get satisfaction from modifying stuff that I have had the drive for since I was old enough to talk.

If the game still uses the same file formats there are already tools that will help you there. I'm going to miss the custom skills and classes though.

[Shapeshifter777]

If the game still uses the same file formats there are already tools that will help you there. I'm going to miss the custom skills and classes though.

 

Considering it's on a completely new engine, I would say the chance that it uses the same file formats are slim to none, sadly.

[Mes]

DA:O was richer for the content the community provided.

 

I agree. However my opinion is that DAO was fundamentally lacking in several areas, rendering some mods close to "essential", particularly for subsequent playthroughs.

 

I have faith that vanilla DAI will be a much more polished and rich game. Hopefully there won't be as much desire to mod in the first place.

[Caja]

Frostbyte relies on a lot of middleware.  EA has a license to use this middleware, but not distribute it.  So unless the toolset were sold along with such a license (which would make it prohibitively expensive), they can't release a toolset.

 

However, that doesn't mean they can't take steps to make the game more mod friendly.  Things like their traditional override folder, for example.

 

Interesting. I am not a modder (yet), but I wanted to give it a try. As a matter of fact, I just installed DAO yesterday morning again, just to play around with the toolset. Then I thought that it might be better to wait for the new game - and the new toolset. So it is good to know that a new toolset might not happen. It's a pity, though. I think the old one is a bit outdated after 4 or 5 years. Moreover, there are some really good mods out there and it would be a shame to miss out on a similar experience for the new game. However, I understand that costs and licenses can be an issue.

[Thumb Fu]

Mod tools wont be available, they confirmed that but i don't have a link right now i'm at work sorry. But they have not commited to say if modding will be at all possible either way, i'm sure they are on our side and would like them to be possible, but it's a factor of how easy is it to put native support for mods in the game vs the time and cost implications.

Either way i think come release we will have a better idea of how moddable to game is, some games don't have mods support at all from developers but people still find ways to mod them.

[Nightwriter]

The moral of this story is always remember to attach mind controlling brain slugs to the people you're buying your engine license from. Rookie mistake, can't believe they forgot.

 

 

"Hey that's copyright infr... copyr... copy... wh-where am I...?"

[Shapeshifter777]

Mod tools wont be available, they confirmed that but i don't have a link right now i'm at work sorry. But they have not commited to say if modding will be at all possible either way, i'm sure they are on our side and would like them to be possible, but it's a factor of how easy is it to put native support for mods in the game vs the time and cost implications.

Either way i think come release we will have a better idea of how moddable to game is, some games don't have mods support at all from developers but people still find ways to mod them.

 

If it's moddable at all, it will be the first Frostbite 3 game to that isn't next to impossible to mod.  Again, I wouldn't hold your breath.  Let's just hope for console commands, cause I can almost guarantee you, it will not be easy to mod nor create our own tools for.  I know, it's a shame.  I remember getting Neverwinter Nights on release day in 2001 or 2002 I think it was and jumping straight into the toolset before I even touched the game.  lol

[bjuandy]

If it's moddable at all, it will be the first Frostbite 3 game to that isn't next to impossible to mod. 

Aren't there a few Battlefield Mods floating out there? I mean, it is just skins, but still.

[erohakase]

I agree. However my opinion is that DAO was fundamentally lacking in several areas, rendering some mods close to "essential", particularly for subsequent playthroughs.

 

I have faith that vanilla DAI will be a much more polished and rich game. Hopefully there won't be as much desire to mod in the first place.

I think I can confidently say that I thought vanilla DAO was miles above vanilla DA2. Sadly, vanilla DA2 couldn't even be modded properly like DAO could. This caused DA2 to fall from "decent" to downright "crap" in comparison.

 

I worry that vanilla DAI will be polished just like how Diablo 3 is "polished". No real choices regarding your character and their playstyle. The way mods could add classes and specializations in DAO was what made it a really good game instead of just a good game. Having the ability to actually do something "unique" is something that I've felt lacking in games since pretty much Neverwinter Nights 2.

 

Nowadays you are given your option of a "tiny" amount of skills/abilities/whatever and by the time you are halfway through the game, you have all skills, all abilities and so on. In Neverwinter Nights games you had a HUGE amount of skills or abilities to choose from. When you got to level 20 in Neverwinter Nights 2 you still had lots of options to choose from, just like you had when you started out. Whilst not all of these options were quite as good as some others it still allowed build variety and customization.

[Setiweb]

I think I can confidently say that I thought vanilla DAO was miles above vanilla DA2. Sadly, vanilla DA2 couldn't even be modded properly like DAO could.

I know, right?  Silly DA2 modders.

[In Exile]

Nowadays you are given your option of a "tiny" amount of skills/abilities/whatever and by the time you are halfway through the game, you have all skills, all abilities and so on. In Neverwinter Nights games you had a HUGE amount of skills or abilities to choose from. When you got to level 20 in Neverwinter Nights 2 you still had lots of options to choose from, just like you had when you started out. Whilst not all of these options were quite as good as some others it still allowed build variety and customization.

That had to do with the D&D ruleset, which, frankly, was all about "trap" skills and talents that were completely garbage in-game. Having a lot of options to choose from doesn't mean much when all of the options are equally worthless. 

 

And vanilla DA2 had more variability in abilities than vanilla DA:O; the problem was how characters were locked out of those abilities. 

[Shapeshifter777]

I think I can confidently say that I thought vanilla DAO was miles above vanilla DA2. Sadly, vanilla DA2 couldn't even be modded properly like DAO could. This caused DA2 to fall from "decent" to downright "crap" in comparison.

 

I worry that vanilla DAI will be polished just like how Diablo 3 is "polished". No real choices regarding your character and their playstyle. The way mods could add classes and specializations in DAO was what made it a really good game instead of just a good game. Having the ability to actually do something "unique" is something that I've felt lacking in games since pretty much Neverwinter Nights 2.

 

Nowadays you are given your option of a "tiny" amount of skills/abilities/whatever and by the time you are halfway through the game, you have all skills, all abilities and so on. In Neverwinter Nights games you had a HUGE amount of skills or abilities to choose from. When you got to level 20 in Neverwinter Nights 2 you still had lots of options to choose from, just like you had when you started out. Whilst not all of these options were quite as good as some others it still allowed build variety and customization.

 

So true.  One of my favorite mods for DA:O was a shapeshifting mod that added a ton of new spells to become a lot more creatures.  *sigh* It's just not going to feel like Dragon Age to me without shapeshifting.  I'm sure it will still be good, but I can almost guarantee you right now that it won't measure up to Origins in my eyes for that reason alone.

[erohakase]

That had to do with the D&D ruleset, which, frankly, was all about "trap" skills and talents that were completely garbage in-game. Having a lot of options to choose from doesn't mean much when all of the options are equally worthless. 

 

And vanilla DA2 had more variability in abilities than vanilla DA:O; the problem was how characters were locked out of those abilities. 

 

Like I said, I know there were "traps" in the D&D ruleset, but to me, I'd rather have some traps and additional options instead of 4 different colored explosions(skills that basically do the same thing). DA2 suffered a lot from having weapons "locked" to a class. I think I might be speaking for quite a bit of people in saying that people would rather have the option to go for "anything" rather than always being "viable". It's a game dammit, don't you want to make any choices for yourself or do you just want the game to "play" itself and end up nothing but a CG movie?

[In Exile]

Like I said, I know there were "traps" in the D&D ruleset, but to me, I'd rather have some traps and additional options instead of 4 different colored explosions(skills that basically do the same thing). DA2 suffered a lot from having weapons "locked" to a class. I think I might be speaking for quite a bit of people in saying that people would rather have the option to go for "anything" rather than always being "viable". It's a game dammit, don't you want to make any choices for yourself or do you just want the game to "play" itself and end up nothing but a CG movie?

 

Firstly, you're completely (and comically) wrong about DA2 abilities. They had more variability and utility than DA:O abilities. Secondly, trap abilities are a waste of space. I want to make choices and experiment with builds, but when I have four options, and three of them are complete garbage that are the equivalent of using STR as your dump stat for D&D warriors, then you don't get to experience with builds. 

 

If someone tells me I have a "choice" between ingesting paint thinner or eating skittles, and I'm not suicidal, I haven't really been given a choice. 

[erohakase]

Firstly, you're completely (and comically) wrong about DA2 abilities. They had more variability and utility than DA:O abilities. Secondly, trap abilities are a waste of space. I want to make choices and experiment with builds, but when I have four options, and three of them are complete garbage that are the equivalent of using STR as your dump stat for D&D warriors, then you don't get to experience with builds. 

 

If someone tells me I have a "choice" between ingesting paint thinner or eating skittles, and I'm not suicidal, I haven't really been given a choice. 

While 3/4 were garbage and you could choose from a total of atleast 20 so it then ends up being 5 skills that are perfectly non suicidal yet still having the option to go for the suicidal skills(that would OFFER something niche, which in general the feats/skills you could take did.) in comparison to having 5 roughly equal skills and you don't even have the option of going for something niche. In general I just feel like at the end of the day with "all" modern games you end up being the same as everybody else because while there is a larger percentage of viable things, you always end up having gotten all of em them at the "endgame" anyway. I suppose the problem somewhat lies in the fact that things are structured in a way that you pretty much have to go all in into a specialization or you don't go for it at all. I can't remember how many different trees there were in DA2 but I want to say it's about 8 including both of the weapon trees in the case of War/Rog. Had this number been at perhaps double the amount we would have been able to have more different characters.

 

Perhaps the reason why I'm a bit more inclined to not hate on DAO and their lack of "utility" was because of the way mods could actually change the game and add new abilities and such. Dragon Age 2 you could somewhat change things but in general the only things that changed were the numbers on skills. The Class and Specialization Pack is just one of those things that make Dragon Age Origins a much more enjoyable experience to me. If I'm going to play a game I kind of wish to be the extremely unique snowflake and not just another generic mage/rogue/warrior.

 

I've never been particularly great at expressing my thoughts so I can't really put much more into writing I think.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I agree. However my opinion is that DAO was fundamentally lacking in several areas, rendering some mods close to "essential", particularly for subsequent playthroughs.

 

I have faith that vanilla DAI will be a much more polished and rich game. Hopefully there won't be as much desire to mod in the first place.

I found that my preferred mods for both games were merely undoing some of BioWare's more recent changes in design direction.  I think Detailed Tooltips was a vital mod in DAO.  Just as Diversified Follower Armour was for DA2.

 

If DAI continues in that direction, it will require more modding, not less.

[Mes]

If DAI continues in that direction, it will require more modding, not less.

 

I think that's definitely a matter of taste. I don't know about DA2, but looks like some of the most popular mods for DAO were improved textures, more hairstyles, respec, lock bash, etc. 

 

For some reason I am just feeling pretty optimistic that DAI will improve upon a lot of these sorts of things. I don't think anyone has ever agreed with me on this, though. Maybe my level of optimism stems from the fact that I'm not overly obsessed with mods to begin with. 

 

I've played all DA and ME games vanilla, and only just recently installed a few mods for DAO for the heck of it. I don't think I'll ever understand the compulsion to mod everything under the sun to suit personal tastes. If a game has to be that heavily modded, maybe it's not the right game for that person in the first place.

[bjuandy]

So for scrubs like me that couldn't find their posts on modding before, here is the post again:

This is what Alan said on why a toolset is unlikely:

"A large issue comes from the types of middleware that Frostbite intrinsically uses. The source control schemes and so forth that are already a sunk cost for a game developer, but actually require licensing for people to use (or we sell the toolset at a hugely inflated price) it.

Finding a way to strip this stuff out and still have it work is a completely nontrivial task.

While for the end user this can be kind of "well crap," it does provide huge savings in manpower investment compared to creating our own engine and whatnot. DAO's engine has its roots in Neverwinter Nights. Much of that infrastructure was still there, but increasingly we found ourselves licensing things and spending less time on making sure the workflow was ideal for end users especially if it was "more than good enough" for our content creators.

So those are some of the risks posed that influence whether or not we'd release the toolset for public use, without even factoring in things like "What does DICE have to say about it?" since that's stuff I have no visibility into.

Mark Darrah I believe made a comment regarding "never say never, but..." and that's probably the safest way to look at it. If we can make it happen without requiring gigantic amounts of investment of our time, then it's much more possible. It's just not a priority. Sorry."

And this is what Gaider said about mods:

"Yeah, just an additional comment that "not a priority" shouldn't be taken as "the modders aren't important to us". Sure, their potential audience consists of PC users only, but that's still a significant number of people... and, despite comments about DLC, they're really not competition on that front. Mods are, in fact, a boon that extends the lifespan of the game on PC's. Players who are still playing a game are more likely to buy DLC for it. So it actually helps us on that front, if you think about it.

So ideally we'd do it. The priority that trumps everything else, however, is just getting the game we're making out the door. And for that we need the toolset to simply work... with a new engine, that's a herculean task unto itself which fully occupies our tools programmers and then some, and they're the guys who would be needed to retrofit said toolset for public use. And that's assuming the middleware issues can be resolved, which neither I nor Allan could speak to.

So, yes, that would be exceptionally cool. But, no, like Allan said I really doubt it can happen-- certainly not on release, anyway."

 

So Bioware doesn't hate the end user, just issues inherent with Frostbite made things difficult and they moved to Frostbite so more manpower and resources could be devoted to making the vanilla game better. 

 

Speculation on my part in all this: we won't see a toolset given that developer tools had to be built almost from scratch for this game, and it is not reasonable for them to dump large amounts of resources again to make a public tool. However, barring yet another engine change and a bigger number after Frostbite is not a new engine, it might be okay then to wonder, speculate and ask about a toolset again.

 

Question though: can anyone with a programming background tell me if the .gda and .erf files used with Bioware's older games can be transferred into Frostbite, or does Frostbite use its own filetypes and I'm delusional?

[erohakase]

If a game has to be that heavily modded, maybe it's not the right game for that person in the first place.

 

This saddens me so much, although if I'd take this at face value I could probably spend more time doing more normal things. Most RPGs these days are just so focused on being easy access and made for everyone that the complexity and "illusion" of choice that I want is just no longer there. I can't for the life of me play Skyrim without mods(mainly because of the absolutely atrocious combat system). For Skyrim I add mods like additional armors, changes to perks/combat, various realism mods such as lighting, weather conditions and the likes. The thing is mods add so much replayability to a game, I still feel like I might want to pick up Skyrim and play again due to mods and the game is now about 2(3?) years old. I can still play Baldur's Gate & Neverwinter games because each playthrough will be somewhat different from the next, especially when adding newer mods that weren't available X years ago.

[Mes]

This saddens me so much, although if I'd take this at face value I could probably spend more time doing more normal things. Most RPGs these days are just so focused on being easy access and made for everyone that the complexity and "illusion" of choice that I want is just no longer there. I can't for the life of me play Skyrim without mods(mainly because of the absolutely atrocious combat system). For Skyrim I add mods like additional armors, changes to perks/combat, various realism mods such as lighting, weather conditions and the likes. The thing is mods add so much replayability to a game, I still feel like I might want to pick up Skyrim and play again due to mods and the game is now about 2(3?) years old. I can still play Baldur's Gate & Neverwinter games because each playthrough will be somewhat different from the next, especially when adding newer mods that weren't available X years ago.

 

Yeah I've heard a lot of good things about Skyrim mods, which I think is a poor reflection of the game itself. I played Skyrim for a few hours and got pretty bored quick - and was never inspired to mod it for replayability's sake because I couldn't get through the vanilla game even one time.

 

Hopefully Inquisition will be replayable on its own. I just think it's pretty dangerous to look forward to mods for a game that isn't even out yet. I can't imagine how crap it must be to get this shiny new game and have enjoyment dampened because of an immediate desire to mod mod mod.

 

Edit: And ya know... I'm starting to think that companies would have more of an incentive to better their games if mods were never available. I mean look at the replayability value of Skyrim - that's thanks to the talented and amazing modding community, and zero thanks to the company/devs. They're probably getting way more credit than they deserve.

 

If it were impossible to mod Skyrim, the devs might have been more inclined to look at critiques and come out with a better game next time. 

[erohakase]

Yeah I've heard a lot of good things about Skyrim mods, which I think is a poor reflection of the game itself. I played Skyrim for a few hours and got pretty bored quick - and was never inspired to mod it for replayability's sake because I couldn't get through the vanilla game even one time.

 

Hopefully Inquisition will be replayable on its own. I just think it's pretty dangerous to look forward to mods for a game that isn't even out yet. I can't imagine how crap it must be to get this shiny new game and have enjoyment dampened because of an immediate desire to mod mod mod.

 

Edit: And ya know... I'm starting to think that companies would have more of an incentive to better their games if mods were never available. I mean look at the replayability value of Skyrim - that's thanks to the talented and amazing modding community, and zero thanks to the company/devs. They're probably getting way more credit than they deserve.

 

If it were impossible to mod Skyrim, the devs might have been more inclined to look at critiques and come out with a better game next time. 

 

I envy your positivity. I've gone from being a relatively "realistic" person in terms of my expectations to downright pessimistic in the span of mere 5-6 years. Nowadays I don't expect much beyond the least amount of effort possible from so called AAA games especially when it comes to RPGs. Part of the problem I think is due to the inherent complexity of the classic RPGs which doesn't really say "Come hither, everyone and their mother". Nowadays, games are supposed to be for everyone, even though I understand this from a purely financial perspective I can't see how a developer would find it all that interesting to keep pumping out the same "uninspired" shallow games all the time. I can only imagine that making something not so run of the mill and more challenging would be a more fulfilling way of earning your paycheck.

 

Anyhow, I'm off to bed. It's almost 9 a.m and I'm hoping that I should be feeling up to the task of falling asleep once I hit the sack.