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The "Food"quisition


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#1
Brass_Buckles

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This is a completely ridiculous bit of feedback, I'll say it outright and up front.  It's a minor thing, but it is something that does affect the depth of the game-world's culture.

 

Food is an important part of people's culture and lives.  Everyone has to eat.  Some don't eat much at all because they can't afford to.

 

DA:O dealt with food by having low-polygon models of it lying around in different areas.  The Warden and companions ate pretty well.  DA2 pretty much eliminated food.

 

I don't want to have to eat to survive in the game (at least, not unless it's optional), but I would like to see more food depicted, or mentioned, in-game.  Dinners have long, long been an occasion to discuss business or politics, and to seal alliances.  I'd love to see an in-game banquet, rife with political tension.  Make the wrong move and you might end up poisoned.

 

I'd also be interested to see the difference between what, the nobility, commoners, and whatever constitutes a middle class in Thedas have on their tables.  I imagine the city elves might be eating meager things like a bit of rice, maybe some hard cheese or stale bread, and no meat whatsoever because they can't afford it.  Whereas, someone on a successful farm, or who owns a decent business in a city, would have a bit of meat, but mostly plain ordinary foods--and then we'd see the nobility with huge, lavish banquets--food laid out as art even, maybe more so than as actual food--and fancy delicacies that either took great effort to prepare or had to be imported from overseas or long distances over the land.

 

All I know, at present, is that Orlais and Ferelden have a thing for cheese, and dwarves eat nugs.  But do all dwarves eat nugs, or only the ones who can afford them?  And what kinds of cheese do the people of Thedas eat?

 

So it's not just that I want to see food, but that I think food has a deeply ingrained cultural importance in real-world society, and it'd be interesting to see that fleshed out a bit more in a situation or two in a Dragon Age game.  I'm not talking about constant barrages of eating scenes, but maybe just two or three, involving eating with a poor household, vs. a not-struggling-to-survive one, vs. a has-more-wealth-than-they-know-what-to-do-with household.  And maybe not even scenes, but food used as clutter items in appropriate settings.

 

Thoughts?


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#2
Mes

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 I'm not talking about constant barrages of eating scenes, but maybe just two or three, involving eating with a poor household, vs. a not-struggling-to-survive one, vs. a has-more-wealth-than-they-know-what-to-do-with household.  And maybe not even scenes, but food used as clutter items in appropriate settings.

 

Thoughts?

 

Interesting topic as always, Brass! :) I hadn't actually considered any of this, but now that you mention it - it would be pretty cool to get a couple of cutscenes at a dinner table or banquet. Maybe have a scene of Quizzy perusing the food laid out at the Orlesian Ball... A scene of him/her politely pretending to eat escargot and then spitting it out into a napkin when the other person turns their back...

 

I'm sure they've at least considered some of this, what with the capabilities of the new engine and all that.



#3
Brass_Buckles

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Interesting topic as always, Brass! :) I hadn't actually considered any of this, but now that you mention it - it would be pretty cool to get a couple of cutscenes at a dinner table or banquet. Maybe have a scene of Quizzy perusing the food laid out at the Orlesian Ball... A scene of him/her politely pretending to eat escargot and then spitting it out into a napkin when the other person turns their back...

 

I'm sure they've at least considered some of this, what with the capabilities of the new engine and all that.

 

Well, I'm also interested in the notion that even within the same nation, different cultures will eat different things.  City elves probably have different favorite dishes (when they can afford them) than the townsfolk of Redcliffe.  Different nations would have different favorites, too.  And, we might learn that, for instance, Dalish elves could have preserved some recipes from the time of ancient Arlathan, which they still eat when they can get the ingredients.

 

Dwarves and elves have both probably lost quite a bit of food-related culture, the dwarves due to the darkspawn and the elves due to the takeover by the Tevinter Imperium and then the Exalted Marches on the Dales.  It would have reduced the availability of certain ingredients to them, as some animals or plants can't live outside of certain regions.  This is particularly true of plants, as more than likely they would have mostly been eating livestock.  Though, their livestock and poultry might have taken a considerably different direction in the past.  I.e. perhaps the elves of Arlathan kept cages filled with brightly colored songbirds, which served both as decoration and as food--sure, the Orlesians might be eating something akin to ortolan bunting, but I'm talking about using them as you'd use a standard chicken (or how people can use tame pigeons as a food source).  In that case, it's difficult to carry cages of birds with you when you are on a long journey, and birds can be sensitive to changes in climate.  Diseases brought by humans could have all but wiped out such a food source, too--birds are susceptible to diseases humans carry.

 

That's just an example, though.  And dwarves may well have once had huge underground farms in their thaigs--we know that they farm and harvest certain fungi--possibly even places where they could harvest plant roots growing down into the rocks from above.  Maybe they even had plants that survived on light from the bioluminescence of other species, or on dim light that came through cracks in the rocks close to the surface.  But when they were forced to flee, they could not take these with them, nor the conditions that enabled them to grow the plants.  They could take seed, and hope they could replant, but that is all they could do.

 

There's just a lot you could do with the use of food.  Demonstrating that city elves aren't just poor, and don't just have that big tree in the middle of their settlement, but that they even eat totally different food from humans, some of which humans might not be able to eat at all for whatever reason (toxicity, allergic reactions, etc.), would be an interesting way of further pushing the fact that they are not human, and that they are a distinct people.

 

And we already know qunari do not have sweets in Par Vollen.  So what do they have?

 

Again, it's interesting to me.  Not really a necessary thing to add into the game, but it could bring a bit more life into it.



#4
FlamenDialis

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all aspects of food could remain completely in the background of da:i and i would not feel poorer for it. cultivation, transportation, preparation, metabolizing and eventual evacuation of food are all best handled by not handling at all.



#5
Brass_Buckles

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all aspects of food could remain completely in the background of da:i and i would not feel poorer for it. cultivation, transportation, preparation, metabolizing and eventual evacuation of food are all best handled by not handling at all.

 

Actually I think it would add life to the world if we did see people actually working in the game.  Farmers farming the fields, cooks, well, cooking.  Servants serving.  It would be a lot of work for the animation team and probably not worth the cost overall.  But food models, and mentions in codex entries about food, or the ability to order a meal at a tavern/inn and get temporary stat buffs, or healing, would be a great way to introduce this.  Or, as mentioned above, a banquet that becomes a highly political situation.

The Orlesian ball is interesting, and all, but you don't generally have a huge dance like that without a banquet sometime before or after, or at the very least drinks and finger foods.



#6
FlamenDialis

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it is a matter of zots. would a detailed description of the cultivation of thedas tubers as a codex entry make the game more "immersive" for some people? perhaps. the thing is that the zots spent on making sure that your local tavern offers you potato skins and chicken wings with your beer are zots that could be spent elsewhere. i just don't see the net gain from something like this. but i was also shocked when following the release of nwn a poster claimed that the single greatest flaw of that game was the lack of unique and visible footwear. the things people believe to be essential never fail to surprise, but the fact that people ask for such things is no surprise at all.



#7
LPPrince

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I've suggested for years that food be integrated more thoroughly into Bioware games such as going to a vendor of nourishment, purchasing meals/beverages, and consuming them/imbibing them for various sorts of temporary benefits, perhaps with drawbacks to some, such as various forms of alcohol.

 

Ex- A meal that increases the stamina of the PC, a meal that increases the critical hit chance of the PC, a beverage that increases the speed of certain attack animations at the cost of increasing the chance of missing, etc etc.

 

I'd also like the opportunity to share meals and have sit downs with companions, as following the OP's train of thought, its an excellent bonding time as well as an important part of the culture of the World.

 

I'd like for such things to make sense though remaining completely and absolutely unnecessary so as to not force some sort of survival type feature to these games.

 

I have yet to see such implementation in a Bioware game I've played, but I'll keep hoping.



#8
Krypplingz

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A small note, there is plenty of food in Dragon Age 2.

There is the old cheese at Gamlens house. The Blooming Rose has fish, ham, cheese (along the most ridiculous cheese knife known to nugs) and wine.

The Lowtown market place has many flayed animals hanging about. Nugs or a pigs I would guess from the coloring. It also has sacks of flour/grain, cheese, humongous fish, some hanging sacks or jugs and turnips. 

Mark of the Assassin has ham, cheese, turnips, (lute)fish, some roasted boar figure, some green soup, some mystery dish in a pot, a massive wine keg. It also has fancy napkins and pretty silver ware. 

Danarious manor also had some mushrooms (if you are feeling desperate) and wine kegs/bottles.

 

All over the game you can see bottles of wine, both round ones with rope decorations and slim ones, like Fenris tosses at the wall. There is also a disturbing amount of cheese wheels laying about. Both yellow and white. 

 

The codex also mentions a Starkhaven dish: Fish and egg pie. The recepie mentions boiled eggs, deboned fish, dried fruit, spices and thickened cream. The spindleweed you collect is also mentioned as a seasoning for dishes. 



#9
FlamenDialis

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I've suggested for years that food be integrated more thoroughly into Bioware games such as going to a vendor of nourishment, purchasing meals/beverages, and consuming them/imbibing them for various sorts of temporary benefits, perhaps with drawbacks to some, such as various forms of alcohol.

 

Ex- A meal that increases the stamina of the PC, a meal that increases the critical hit chance of the PC, a beverage that increases the speed of certain attack animations at the cost of increasing the chance of missing, etc etc.

 

I'd also like the opportunity to share meals and have sit downs with companions, as following the OP's train of thought, its an excellent bonding time as well as an important part of the culture of the World.

 

I'd like for such things to make sense though remaining completely and absolutely unnecessary so as to not force some sort of survival type feature to these games.

 

I have yet to see such implementation in a Bioware game I've played, but I'll keep hoping.

i don't recall anybody asking for food consumption in kotor. then again, given the success of kotor you might be surprised to learn how the kotor boards received relatively little traffic during the development of that game. every other game has had people demanding food consumption. another staple is the weighty-gold request for fantasy games. thankfully, these requests have been given only the most brief consideration by the developers before they have been rejected. sometimes the world makes sense.



#10
LPPrince

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Its a small thing really- function wise it'd basically be the vehicle for temporary buffs. Though I'd like it more integrated into the narrative with some scenes of the PC eating and drinking with his/her companions and other various NPCs, in which case it would not be such a small thing.



#11
Thumb Fu

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Gotta say my initial thought when i read the thread title was "gosh not another one who wants a game that is so realistic that he wants his character to starve to death when he forgets to eat!". i suppose that reflects badly on me, shouldn't judge a book and all that.

 

Thankfully you have surprised me with what is a wonderful topic so thank you sir and or madam.

 

I agree that often you'll wander a game world and it will be completely devoid of anything culinary, any reference to food is usually in one particular scene or area of the game world and it's usually for a specific purpose. Example. One of the only times i remember seeing food in DA2 was in the DLC Mark of the Assassin, and there was a point of the food being there, it was a banquet. Whenever you were in the hanged man or any house there was rarely any food on show, no people eating enjoying a meal, the world feels less "lived in" i think is the appropriate term,

 

Skyrim did a good job of food, they shoved it everywhere, large banquet tables in castles, barrels of apples in a corner, a market full of fruits, vegetables, and meats. The thing is the Elder Scrolls games are designed to be a world that you live in it, the Dragon Age games (so far) have been places you visit, not a criticism by any means as Thedas is probably my favorite place to visit!

 

I think what it comes down to is time though, and a game that is finely crafted like dragon age they might not have the budget to work on the little things that have what seems like small impact on immersion, hopefully with the larger memory and computing powers available with the new engine they can at least sneak in the finer details this time round.

 

Interesting discussion.



#12
armoredwolf26

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I would love for my inquisitor to pig out at a fancy orleasian banquet with the famed Alistair the pig.



#13
Brass_Buckles

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Gotta say my initial thought when i read the thread title was "gosh not another one who wants a game that is so realistic that he wants his character to starve to death when he forgets to eat!". i suppose that reflects badly on me, shouldn't judge a book and all that.

 

Thankfully you have surprised me with what is a wonderful topic so thank you sir and or madam.

 

I agree that often you'll wander a game world and it will be completely devoid of anything culinary, any reference to food is usually in one particular scene or area of the game world and it's usually for a specific purpose. Example. One of the only times i remember seeing food in DA2 was in the DLC Mark of the Assassin, and there was a point of the food being there, it was a banquet. Whenever you were in the hanged man or any house there was rarely any food on show, no people eating enjoying a meal, the world feels less "lived in" i think is the appropriate term,

 

Skyrim did a good job of food, they shoved it everywhere, large banquet tables in castles, barrels of apples in a corner, a market full of fruits, vegetables, and meats. The thing is the Elder Scrolls games are designed to be a world that you live in it, the Dragon Age games (so far) have been places you visit, not a criticism by any means as Thedas is probably my favorite place to visit!

 

I think what it comes down to is time though, and a game that is finely crafted like dragon age they might not have the budget to work on the little things that have what seems like small impact on immersion, hopefully with the larger memory and computing powers available with the new engine they can at least sneak in the finer details this time round.

 

Interesting discussion.

 

Honestly, what got me started thinking about this was kind of silly in and of itself...

 

I make ads for a living.  I had to make a restaurant ad, so I was looking up pie images to put into the ad.  I ended up really wanting some pie (which I didn't get because I was at work), but it also made me think about food, since the restaurant in question was a "country style homemade food" type place.  Which made me think about how food is really divided up culturally via region and ethnicity and the wealth of the people who eat that food.  Country style chow usually isn't rich people food, and what, say, someone in Asia or Africa would consider "country style" would be a lot different from my concept of mashed potatoes and fried chicken/catfish type foods.

 

I don't really expect them to include food in any major way, though a bit more food clutter would certainly be nice just as a "see, these people eat stuff" kind of touch.  LPPrince is also right that it would be a sort of comfortable scene to have the Inquisitor sit down to a meal with companions.  And I like the idea of a tense political banquet because a meal/feast is precisely where you should feel comfortable, but here you are with tensions high and the wrong statement could get you poisoned--if your food isn't already poisoned.

 

I'd actually forgotten that there was food in DA2 at the bar/inn.  I never played MoTA (I have it, just never played it--never played DA2 more than once, though I played DAO three or four times.  ME1 and ME2 saw more replays, I'm afraid, even though in hindsight I'm still seeing DA:O as the better game in terms of choice and interacting with companions).

 

I don't think Skyrim did as great a job with food as it might have, to be honest.  It was everywhere, but in a lot of places it was sparse, presumably to save on memory and keep your computer/console from crashing if you were to decide to Fus-Roh-Dah at the decorations.  It also had some foods give very minor stat boosts, while others did nothing.  I suppose it counts for immersion, but after adding in a "needs" mod, I thought forcing myself to make my character eat OR ELSE was just a massive waste of time that slowed my playthrough.  It gave me a reason to pack food around instead of ignoring it or selling it, but having to stop to eat every so often, and make sure I always had food in my pack, and that the food wasn't rotten, in the end wasn't that enjoyable.  And while Skyrim did have a lot of food, too, it wasn't divided up regionally around Skyrim that I recall.  You wouldn't find more stew if you went to the colder regions like Winterhold, vs. more venison chops if you were around Falkreath where you'd think that would be more common.  Everyone had the same foods--which probably, if Skyrim were a real place, wouldn't have been the case, due to the differences in regional climate.  The one food I can think of that did hold pretty true to region was mammoth steak--you mostly didn't find any of that unless there were mammoths around to get it from.  But I am sure there were exceptions even to that.

 

So no, I don't want DA:I or any Dragon Age game to require food to survive.  That is just too tedious.  If that were an option you could turn on in two degrees of severity (either stat debuffs for not eating/drinking for too long, or death from not eating/drinking for too long), I wouldn't mind it, but I'd keep that option turned off due to my experience with the Skyrim mod.  If you're going to use food in that way, it had better have much better buffs and benefits than food in Skyrim did, in order to justify the presence of a lot of it.

 

Mostly I am thinking clutter in NPCs' houses (and the Keep, since there must be a kitchen/dining hall there), and/or a scene or more in which people are gathered eating.  Because, again, business has for centuries been conducted over meals, and families, friends, and significant others also bond over meals.  It's sort of a "cozy" thing to do but it can also be very tense (i.e. the aforementioned politically tense banquet, or a business meeting with someone you don't like/trust).



#14
Stelae

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all aspects of food could remain completely in the background of da:i and i would not feel poorer for it. cultivation, transportation, preparation, metabolizing and eventual evacuation of food are all best handled by not handling at all.

But what's a fancy Orlesian Ball without canapes to poison sample and offer to your companions? 

 

I want cheese that tastes of despair. 


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#15
TheEgoRaptor

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As strange as this topic may seem, This needs to be in game.



#16
mlgumm

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Eating animations take resources, but if it was part of enough parts of the game it could be well worth it. Like the animation to eat with a fork. You could use it in the afore-mentioned banquet, then again in a dinner date sort of thing with one or two of romances (not all of them because different characters have different ways of bonding), and then again as just some background characters eating as you pass by on your way through your kitchen. This would make it so that it was useful enough to offset the cost of putting it in. You would get important plot scenes out of it as well as a greater sense of immersion. 



#17
Thumb Fu

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The latest novel by Patrick Weekes has some good references to what you are talking about when you say the different regions or different classes eat differently.

Specifically he mentions the difference in the food in the elven alianages compared to the Imperial palance, and something called Peasant Bread is referenced. This isn't to say it will be in the games, but we at least know the writing team are aware of it.
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#18
Bond

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Witcher 3 got you covered imo



#19
ladyoflate

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I've always sort of thought my ideal RPG would be something as livable as Skyrim with certain mods (not just survival, but adding in new food recipes and ~FASHION~ since both those things are pr important irl but also pr lacking in vanilla Skyrim) with characters that are as interesting as Bioware (it's very hard for me to get involved in playing Skyrim when everyone only has 10 lines, although I do realize that was the only feasible way to may such a huge game).

 

More food clutter would be nice, but it's also going to be very distracting if I can't interact with it and imagine a favorite food for my Inquisitor.



#20
Deflagratio

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Culture is Food, and Food is Culture, you can't expect to have a truly believable world without exploring this, so as a purely world-building tool, it's very important in my opinion.

 

 

As for food on Gameplay, I'd imagine the first thought is that there might be some redundancy with Alchemy, but is a little redundancy (If properly balanced) a good price for believability? The moment you add ramifications to food consumption in your game, it goes from prop to an actual part of your world really fast.



#21
Brass_Buckles

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Witcher 3 got you covered imo

 

Please explain this.  I haven't played the Witcher games, but I do know that Witcher 3 isn't even out yet and not slated to be out until next year sometime due to a delay.  Have the developers discussed somewhere the importance of food in-game? Or is this purely conjecture on your part (which would make your post kind of irrelevant)?

 

The latest novel by Patrick Weekes has some good references to what you are talking about when you say the different regions or different classes eat differently.

Specifically he mentions the difference in the food in the elven alianages compared to the Imperial palance, and something called Peasant Bread is referenced. This isn't to say it will be in the games, but we at least know the writing team are aware of it.

 

Yes, I remember a little of that, but I don't remember any major mentions.  That said, I wouldn't want descriptions of food in a book to be overbearing; it might have the effect of making me hungry or it might just bore me to tears when I'm hoping to see what happens next.  But a little idea of what people eat, beyond just "peasant bread" might be nice.  Again, food is important--particularly at special events (i.e. holidays--even in the real world there are certain foods that we hardly ever eat unless it's a holiday--and in some cultures it's taboo to eat certain foods outside of a holiday).

 

Eating animations take resources, but if it was part of enough parts of the game it could be well worth it. Like the animation to eat with a fork. You could use it in the afore-mentioned banquet, then again in a dinner date sort of thing with one or two of romances (not all of them because different characters have different ways of bonding), and then again as just some background characters eating as you pass by on your way through your kitchen. This would make it so that it was useful enough to offset the cost of putting it in. You would get important plot scenes out of it as well as a greater sense of immersion. 

 

Yes, I'm aware that both eating animations and food as clutter would take resources.  That's why I don't really expect my suggestion to make it into DA:I.  But I'm hopeful that scenes with eating, or settings with meals set out, will make it into the next game, at least.  Even if we can't personally interact with that food, it can give us a lot of information about who lives in a place and what kind of lifestyle they live.  For instance, if you don't see food laid out on someone's dinner table, but you find a sandwich lying half-eaten on the desk in the study next to a stack of books, you can probably guess that the person is either extremely busy or that the person tends to lose track of time and eats on the fly.

 

It might also be relevant if you find a half-drunk glass of wine and a dead body nearby.  Might the individual have been poisoned...?

 

Point being, food can tell stories, as well as just being nice to look at.

 

I've always sort of thought my ideal RPG would be something as livable as Skyrim with certain mods (not just survival, but adding in new food recipes and ~FASHION~ since both those things are pr important irl but also pr lacking in vanilla Skyrim) with characters that are as interesting as Bioware (it's very hard for me to get involved in playing Skyrim when everyone only has 10 lines, although I do realize that was the only feasible way to may such a huge game).

 

More food clutter would be nice, but it's also going to be very distracting if I can't interact with it and imagine a favorite food for my Inquisitor.

 

Well, I don't know about fashion, per se.  It does have relevance culturally, I will say that, but unless you're nobility or a wealthy merchant/craftsperson in Thedas, you'd more than likely be more practical than fashionable.  Fashion was long used as a way to set apart the haves from the have-nots.  So, while there is such a thing as "peasant fashion," since peasantry and the poor would wear certain types of clothing, and it would often at least be dyed in some easily obtained color (green, sometimes yellow or dull red or deep brown or black--it was harder to acquire blues and purples and vibrant reds and whites)--whereas they could just as easily have gone back to wearing, for instance, togas.

 

I personally do not mind food clutter being distracting.  I've been known to go wander around tables in Skyrim just to see what the people had there to eat, when I got bored or was dropping by a great hall to turn in a quest or enchant an item.  I don't even steal the food.  I just look at it, and also admire the setup.  Someone had to place that stuff there, to look nice, from the developer kit.  They were thinking about what should go there.  So that's interesting, too.

 

Culture is Food, and Food is Culture, you can't expect to have a truly believable world without exploring this, so as a purely world-building tool, it's very important in my opinion.

 

 

As for food on Gameplay, I'd imagine the first thought is that there might be some redundancy with Alchemy, but is a little redundancy (If properly balanced) a good price for believability? The moment you add ramifications to food consumption in your game, it goes from prop to an actual part of your world really fast.

 

Again, I'm not really entirely sure I'd want food in gameplay, unless it has some measurably helpful effects, and it isn't required to survive (unless there's a toggle to say "yeah sure, make it so I die if I don't eat"--so that I, and anyone else who doesn't like that, can turn it off).  A lot of food in Skyrim did not have such effects, and what did have effects, didn't have strong effects.  Healing 1 health for 600 seconds isn't really all that great.  It helps, but not enough that I'd prefer to use that food over a health regeneration potion.  So yes, food would pretty much have to either overlap the herbalism system or it would have to provide different and distinct benefits (or drawbacks) as compared to something you could craft with herbs.  Overlapping wouldn't be so terrible, since some of the herbs might be used for seasoning on the food, in the first place.



#22
ladyoflate

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Well, I don't know about fashion, per se.  It does have relevance culturally, I will say that, but unless you're nobility or a wealthy merchant/craftsperson in Thedas, you'd more than likely be more practical than fashionable.  Fashion was long used as a way to set apart the haves from the have-nots.  So, while there is such a thing as "peasant fashion," since peasantry and the poor would wear certain types of clothing, and it would often at least be dyed in some easily obtained color (green, sometimes yellow or dull red or deep brown or black--it was harder to acquire blues and purples and vibrant reds and whites)--whereas they could just as easily have gone back to wearing, for instance, togas.

 

That also makes sense, but I also mean the idea of running around town (in daylight especially) armed to the hilt in full plate with 0 negative reactions from people. This was difficult to avoid in DA2 for obvious reasons, but in DAI we're not restricted to a coty setting and most of the combat is likely to take place outside of cities, so there's not as much excuse for it, you know?