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[The Ascendant]

One area I found very intriguing in The Masked Empire was the right and the legitimacy of the contenders to the throne of Orlais. Celene was only the previous emperor's niece and yet she managed to manipulate and outmanoeuvre the other claimants. True she is part of the royal family but only just. Her cousin Gaspard is her cousin and therefore would also have a relation to the royal line. One area of interest is the duel at near the end of the novel. Gaspard did cheat somewhat employing magic to weaken his opponent, but Michel yielded and therefore lost the duel and consequently Celene's kingdom. The ethics and validity of this duel are ambiguous in my opinion, but if Gaspard won the duel does that technically not make Gaspard the Emperor? Your thought  and opinions are appreciated. Apologies to anyone who has started a similar topic. 

[The Baconer]

Their legitimacy to rule is an imaginary concept.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The duel wasn't for the legal right to rule Orlais.

[Former_Fiend]

Their legitimacy to rule is an imaginary concept.

 

Fixed that.

[Zered]

Legitimacy is a tricky concept. Celenes example show that it's not the best claim that counts but the one that is actually able to enforce it.

[TurretSyndrome]

Orlais is the worst when it comes to deciding on who is to rule. I assume it is almost as bad as Antiva, but unlike Antiva, it's a bit more secretive, and any evidence would turn tables against the one who conspires. Celene doesn't follow a code, so obviously with no proper witnesses she will not acknowledge the duel or it's outcome.

 

It's isn't Ferelden, there is no honor to be found among Orlesian nobles, Celene is no exception. On a side note, I can't help but feel that Orlais' "Game" is overrated. They're just a bunch of backstabbing nobles. Ferelden is way better.

[Wolfen09]

it was just a who should live and who should die kind of thing for the duel, not for orlais...  anyway i believe gaspard threw out the results because he was being aided by magic unknowingly...

[ladyoflate]

Legitimacy is a tricky concept. Celenes example show that it's not the best claim that counts but the one that is actually able to enforce it.

 

Yeah, this is basically how it worked/works irl. You disable your opponents in a variety of ways and THEN it's decided that oh you were the clear choice after all, your legitimacy is so obvious.

[Aolbain]

Orlais is the worst when it comes to deciding on who is to rule. I assume it is almost as bad as Antiva, but unlike Antiva, it's a bit more secretive, and any evidence would turn tables against the one who conspires. Celene doesn't follow a code, so obviously with no proper witnesses she will not acknowledge the duel or it's outcome.

 

It's isn't Ferelden, there is no honor to be found among Orlesian nobles, Celene is no exception. On a side note, I can't help but feel that Orlais' "Game" is overrated. They're just a bunch of backstabbing nobles. Ferelden is way better.

 

From what we've seen of ferelden politics they're just as big on plotting and coups as Orlais.

[wcholcombe]

Orlais is the worst when it comes to deciding on who is to rule. I assume it is almost as bad as Antiva, but unlike Antiva, it's a bit more secretive, and any evidence would turn tables against the one who conspires. Celene doesn't follow a code, so obviously with no proper witnesses she will not acknowledge the duel or it's outcome.

 

It's isn't Ferelden, there is no honor to be found among Orlesian nobles, Celene is no exception. On a side note, I can't help but feel that Orlais' "Game" is overrated. They're just a bunch of backstabbing nobles. Ferelden is way better.

There is no honor to be found among ferelden nobles either.  It is a person by person basis. The duel was for control of the illuvians, not for control of orlais.

 

Celene has her own code. It is different then Gaspards, but it doesn't mean she has no honor at all.

 

As for legitimacy of rule.  Celene's father was the crown prince when he died, not that that truly matters in orlais.

[TheKomandorShepard]

From what we've seen of ferelden politics they're just as big on plotting and coups as Orlais.

Eeee where? corrution in ferelden isn't part of the system more result of human nature not openly promoted corruption like in orlais.If you mean loghain it was more caused more by situation (bligh and death of the king).

[TurretSyndrome]

From what we've seen of ferelden politics they're just as big on plotting and coups as Orlais.

 

I don't think so. From what we've seen in Origins, Howe was the only one going about betraying nobles and grabbing land from people. Then there are other oddities like Vaughan Kendells who take advantage of their position and act like tyrants.

 

Not saying it's all roses and sunshine, just that the country is doing a lot better than Orlais. 

 

 

There is no honor to be found among ferelden nobles either.  It is a person by person basis. The duel was for control of the illuvians, not for control of orlais.

 

Celene has her own code. It is different then Gaspards, but it doesn't mean she has no honor at all.

 

As for legitimacy of rule.  Celene's father was the crown prince when he died, not that that truly matters in orlais.

 

 

Go read the book again, or check the Wikia, the duel is for the Kingdom, not the eluvians. Celene is opportunistic, just like every other noble in Orlais, her feigning an attack on herself while knowing full well that Briala's parents would die proves that she has taken The Game for granted. The Game also has little to do with honour from what I saw, but if one was following a certain code like Gaspard, they would sometimes feel constrained in what they can do or are allowed to do. Celene is free of that, that's all I'm saying. 

[azarhal]

As for legitimacy of rule.  Celene's father was the crown prince when he died, not that that truly matters in orlais.

 

Which is really funky, because her codex says it was her mother who was related to Emperor Florian (his youngest sister) and there was plenty of people with better claim than her.

 

Either BioWare did a retcon here or the editor didn't catch that error when editing Masked Empire.

[Das Tentakel]

Which is really funky, because her codex says it was her mother who was related to Emperor Florian (his youngest sister) and there was plenty of people with better claim than her.

 

Either BioWare did a retcon here or the editor didn't catch that error when editing Masked Empire.

 

It's possible they just didn't work it out, and therefore there's no entry in their internal wiki to keep things straight. If so, a minor oversight they'll presumably rectify (or maybe they've already done so).

Worldbuilding is hard.

[azarhal]

It's possible they just didn't work it out, and therefore there's no entry in their internal wiki to keep things straight. If so, a minor oversight they'll presumably rectify (or maybe they've already done so).

Worldbuilding is hard.

 

The codex was in DA2 Mask of the Assassin DLC, it's like the most recent stuff they wrote on her in-game before the novel was released.

[Das Tentakel]

The codex was in DA2 Mask of the Assassin DLC, it's like the most recent stuff they wrote on her in-game before the novel was released.

I am referring to the exact family relationship and the rules of succession. For instance, referring to French history, Henry IV was heir to the trone in his own right because of French succession rules, even though there were quite a few people who were more closely related to his Valois predecessors than he was. Without clearly established succession rules and family relationships (in so far as these are relevant), Celine's legitimacy or lack of it remains rather fuzzy. That applies equally to fans as well as BioWare writers.

[Heimdall]

As I understand it, Emperor Florian had no children. Celene, being the daughter of his dead brother, could easily be his closest blood heir.

The duel was a discrete agreement between Celene and Gaspard. It has nothing to do with Orlesian Succession practices.

[Augustei]

I'm pretty sure Celene was the legal heir due to Florian having no issue himself and Meghren being dead, Her house crest is the golden lion on the purple background which is apparently also the symbol for Orlais, Thats why Gaspard attacked her family.. House Chalons isn't the royal house of Orlais so Gaspard was a pretender and if he took the throne he would be a Usurper.

Nothing is really set about the sucession laws in thedas beyond Ferelden and Orzammar being elective monarchies.. But I always assumed Orlais to have an Absolute Cognatic Primogeniture Succesion monarchy.

[Das Tentakel]

I'm pretty sure Celene was the legal heir due to Florian having no issue himself and Meghren being dead, Her house crest is the golden lion on the purple background which is apparently also the symbol for Orlais, Thats why Gaspard attacked her family.. House Chalons isn't the royal house of Orlais so Gaspard was a pretender and if he took the throne he would be a Usurper.

Nothing is really set about the sucession laws in thedas beyond Ferelden and Orzammar being elective monarchies.. But I always assumed Orlais to have an Absolute Cognatic Primogeniture Succesion monarchy.

 
If you assume there wasn't a lore mixup by Patrick Weekes, the most economical solution would be that Celine is, indeed, the daughter of the male-line heir and his wife, the younger sister of the previous Emperor. Her right to succeed would then be derived from her father, not her mother, even though her mother was far more closely related to the previous Emperors.
See also semi-Salic law and agnatic-cognatic primogeniture. In a nutshell, women only inherit when all the males of the dynasty are dead. Celine would be rightfull Empress because she is the genealogically senior (or even last) member of the ruling dynasty on her father’s, not her mother’s, side.

If so, it is conceivable that for many people (nobility and commoners alike) this feels wrong and counter-intuitive if Gaspard, a male of proven capability (as a soldier), is the son of the Emperor Florian’s elder sister. He would be genealogically the closest relative of the previous Emperor, but because he is not a male-line descendant of the ruling dynasty he would not be the formal heir.
If the succession / inheritance rules of the nobility and commoners are different from those of the ruling dynasty (which historically could be the case, inheritance laws could vary from one province to the next, or even between noble families), many people might ‘feel’ that Gaspard should be Emperor by virtue of being a capable male, the last Emperor’s closest relative, and according to ‘normal everyday’ inheritance laws.
 

(For those wondering what 'absolute' means in 'Absolute Cognatic Primogeniture Succesion monarchy', it refers to the first-born being the heir, regardless of sex. This is the system that has been adopted in recent years in some European monarchies:

 

 

The green countries practise this system; it's tied to strong pro-gender equality feelings in the country involved.

My own country, the Netherlands, has a King (first time since a century after three Queens...) with three daughters. Should he father a son, the boy's out of luck because his eldest sister will inherit the throne, and after her there's another two girls before it's his turn.

[Heimdall]

Celene's father was called a Prince, so I assumed the relation came from him.

[ladyoflate]

Celene's father was called a Prince, so I assumed the relation came from him.

 

Mmm, him being a prince doesn't really mean much. It just means he's male and royal, and empires especially can have very broad definitions of 'royal'. That or he was head of an in-empire principality, like Dorne and the Seven Kingdoms. Technically I think you can even have full kings who are still subject to imperial rule, but it's very rare. Crown Prince, on the other hand, is a very different story since that's the heir.

[Das Tentakel]

Mmm, him being a prince doesn't really mean much. It just means he's male and royal, and empires especially can have very broad definitions of 'royal'. That or he was head of an in-empire principality, like Dorne and the Seven Kingdoms. Technically I think you can even have full kings who are still subject to imperial rule, but it's very rare. Crown Prince, on the other hand, is a very different story since that's the heir.

 

If I remember correctly, the Orlesian noble hierarchy in WoT mentions prince(ss) as the designation of the ruler's (presumably legitimate) children, junior members of the dynasty are fobbed off with grand duke.

 

It could be that 'grand duke' or 'grand duchess' is granted to every legitimate child of a prince or princess. 'Crown Prince' would simply designate the heir, and if there's something like a semi-Salic succession law in place he (or she) could be a person who wasn't actually born a prince or princess, but at best a grand duke or grand duchess.

That's assuming that the title of grand duke is hereditary, like that of the Austrian archdukes or Russian imperial grand dukes.

For instance, crown prince Rudolf of Austria-Hungary, son of the ruling Emperor Francis Joseph, committed suicide in 1889. As Rudolf had only a young daughter and two sisters, the next crown prince was his closest patrilineal relative, his cousin Francis Ferdinand (until then 'just' an archduke).

[ladyoflate]

If I remember correctly, the Orlesian noble hierarchy in WoT mentions prince(ss) as the designation of the ruler's (presumably legitimate) children, junior members of the dynasty are fobbed off with grand duke.

 

It could be that 'grand duke' or 'grand duchess' is granted to every legitimate child of a prince or princess. 'Crown Prince' would simply designate the heir, and if there's something like a semi-Salic succession law in place he (or she) could be a person who wasn't actually born a prince or princess, but at best a grand duke or grand duchess.

That's assuming that the title of grand duke is hereditary, like that of the Austrian archdukes or Russian imperial grand dukes.

For instance, crown prince Rudolf of Austria-Hungary, son of the ruling Emperor Francis Joseph, committed suicide in 1889. As Rudolf had only a young daughter and two sisters, the next crown prince was his closest patrilineal relative, his cousin Francis Ferdinand (until then 'just' an archduke).

 

This is true! However, it's also possible to have both situations in the same country, so theoretically her father could still be a prince and yet the mother be the imperial connection, which would be interesting since it'd be a combination of power from one side (since princes regardless of royalness tend to be more powerful in certain ways than other nobles) and blood from the other.

 

I'm a bit miffed at the younger members of the dynasty being the grand dukes and duchesses, since I remember my Anastasia The Royal Diaries book telling me that the reason the czar's children had the title was because prince(ss) seemed overly common and not dignified enough. Hmmph.

[Heimdall]

If I remember correctly, the Orlesian noble hierarchy in WoT mentions prince(ss) as the designation of the ruler's (presumably legitimate) children, junior members of the dynasty are fobbed off with grand duke.

 

It could be that 'grand duke' or 'grand duchess' is granted to every legitimate child of a prince or princess. 'Crown Prince' would simply designate the heir, and if there's something like a semi-Salic succession law in place he (or she) could be a person who wasn't actually born a prince or princess, but at best a grand duke or grand duchess.

That's assuming that the title of grand duke is hereditary, like that of the Austrian archdukes or Russian imperial grand dukes.

For instance, crown prince Rudolf of Austria-Hungary, son of the ruling Emperor Francis Joseph, committed suicide in 1889. As Rudolf had only a young daughter and two sisters, the next crown prince was his closest patrilineal relative, his cousin Francis Ferdinand (until then 'just' an archduke).

What I remember about the title Grand Duke in Orlais is that the  title is apparently given to lines of royal blood that are no longer directly related to the Emperor (Presumably that means distant cousins like Gaspard).  I'm not entirely sure what that means in practice, but I'm reasonably certain it means Celene had a much better claim than he did, being the daughter of a prince.

[Wolfen09]

pfft the dutch... anyway we could always go the antivan route and assassinate all competitors to the throne till someone good is left