156 réponses à ce sujet

[SwobyJ]

I agree on that as it were we're still with the Alliance just one of their black ops projects. That they say went rouge in reality their still operating within the Alliance. Kind of like Al Qaeda, with the CIA.

 

Nothing actually shows that.

 

Pre-ME1 - Black ops, with much infiltration of humanity

ME1 - Black ops but going rogue, with some infiltration of humanity

ME2 - Broken off and declared terrorists, with less infiltration of humanity now that they're more in the open

ME3 - Broken off and a direct threat to humanity, and any sympathizers are to be stopped

 

Again, nothing shows that they're part of the Alliance anymore. Even if Hackett was okay with them before (and a bit of ME1-ME2 might indicate that he at least understands where they're coming from), by ME3 they have crossed any moral event horizon and even if there were some in the Alliance that supported Cerberus, they would be considered total traitors by even the other higher ups.

 

EDIT: However, this is largely due to TIM's leadership of Cerberus. The Alliance itself likely has many individuals in it that support off-the-record research and development, even if it strains or breaks ethics. TIM took the organization one way, while the Alliance went the other way, when they once worked more hand-in-hand.

[KaiserShep]

I wonder how humanity would see an asari, turian or salarian equivalent of Cerberus.

[SwobyJ]

I wonder how humanity would see an asari, turian or salarian equivalent of Cerberus.

 

Asari - their whole ruling class is their Cerberus, so there's no problem as long as their leader isn't indoctrinated or the asari aren't exposed

Turian - they don't really care for Cerberus-type stuff, and I feel that is fitting

Salarian - they exist as a tempered Cerberus. If they had actual control over the galaxy though, I'd imagine them to be *quite* crazy with the power..

[SporkFu]

Something I found interesting about the salarians in ME3: If you got the route of curing the genophage on Tuchanka, the STG begins to split from the government, at least until after the coup attempt. I wonder if we hadn't saved Valern, we might have eventually seen a military coup on Sur'Kesh.

[SwobyJ]

Something I found interesting about the salarians in ME3: If you got the route of curing the genophage on Tuchanka, the STG begins to split from the government, at least until after the coup attempt. I wonder if we hadn't saved Valern, we might have eventually seen a military coup on Sur'Kesh.

 

I'm still hoping for this.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

 

If they had actual control over the galaxy though, I'd imagine them to be *quite* crazy with the power..

I don't know if they will, but they should, after the war. Only race with intact fleets and infrastructure. Sur'Kesh was barely hit, they developed stealth systems for their entire navy, including the dreadnoughts, and the STG is gonna be reverse-engineering Reapers and stealing their drive cores. 

 

[SwobyJ]

I don't know if they will, but they should, after the war. Only race with intact fleets and infrastructure. Sur'Kesh was barely hit, they developed stealth systems for their entire navy, including the dreadnoughts, and the STG is gonna be reverse-engineering Reapers and stealing their drive cores. 

 

 

I'm all for that. I wanna fight me some salarians.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Actually, yeah you do in fact need a large force to take over a structure such as the citadel. They've got peacekeepers all over the place along with soldiers as it's hold the government. Yeah I know it was coup, why would they join? How did Tim get indoctrinated, in the first place, I destroyed the base in my game. I'm confused by how and why they been building this army?

TIM has been indoctrinated since First Contact. Albeit left as a highly functioning thrall.

 

Though with everything else, it could be said that Shepard got screwed because of the cell structure since TIM was keeping him in the dark about pretty much everything Cerberus unless they really needed a skilled hand to clean up.

[SwobyJ]

The fact that Cerberus was going so much stuff behind Shepard's back was pretty understandable. Playing ME2, I never once got the impression that TIM was being forthright to my about his plans and his reach of power, but I also Investigated everything I could in the game.

[Glockwheeler]

I always thought the reason why Cerberus tried to overtake the Citadel was because it was the political hub of the galaxy and as such, many political leaders were there. Looking at it from the view of Cerberus, if these assets were to be seized, they would have severely upset the overall political balance (specifically with the non-human species). Who knows, perhaps TIM had plans to convert these political leaders via Reaper tech to carry out his political desires. As mentioned in the game, should leaders or others in higher political positions become indoctrinated, the damage caused would be devastating.

[ImaginaryMatter]

TIM has been indoctrinated since First Contact. Albeit left as a highly functioning thrall.

 

Though with everything else, it could be said that Shepard got screwed because of the cell structure since TIM was keeping him in the dark about pretty much everything Cerberus unless they really needed a skilled hand to clean up.

 

Did ME3 ever mention when TIM actually got Indoctrinated? During the games I always assumed he drew the idiot card when he decided to place the Reapers remains inside his hideout and that was how he got Indoctrinated. I didn't find out about the first contact thing until strolling around on the wiki much later.

[Steelcan]

[Steelcan]

TIM has been indoctrinated since First Contact. Albeit left as a highly functioning thrall.

 

Though with everything else, it could be said that Shepard got screwed because of the cell structure since TIM was keeping him in the dark about pretty much everything Cerberus unless they really needed a skilled hand to clean up.

He was so high functioning he outright opposed other Reaper agents and found a way to control them

[SwobyJ]

The script goes out of its way to not outright state that TIM is indoctrinated (even removing lines about Cerberus being indoctrinated in Sur'Kesh), except towards the end. And TIM's actions, even if it is under the control of the Reapers, seem awfully autonomous.

 

It's as if no particular Reaper was attached to him.. (hi Steel! I'm sure you've heard about this haha)

[Iakus]

He was so high functioning he outright opposed other Reaper agents and found a way to control them

 

Wiped out a bunch of Reaper allies to get that tech too.

[Daemul]

Wiped out a bunch of Reaper allies to get that tech too.

 

Yeah, TIM being indoctrinated anytime before after the events of Sanctuary makes no sense. I have never seen the Reapers allow a pawn of their's such autonomy, to the extent of allowing their pawn to oppose them and forcing them into attacking the organisation meant to be under their control. 

[KaiserShep]

Asari - their whole ruling class is their Cerberus, so there's no problem as long as their leader isn't indoctrinated or the asari aren't exposed

Turian - they don't really care for Cerberus-type stuff, and I feel that is fitting

Salarian - they exist as a tempered Cerberus. If they had actual control over the galaxy though, I'd imagine them to be *quite* crazy with the power..

 

Maybe, but really, it's not so much indoctrination or anything like that that really serves as a catalyst for a group like Cerberus to come along. What really drives Cerberus is the struggle for power. If anything, it's the asari's lofty position in a pre-reaper war galactic society that really makes such a group unnecessary. They already do have groups that engage in infiltration and sabotage, and their technological head start makes a Cerberus equivalent redundant. Post-war, well, that would be a different story, but I suppose it's all speculative.

 

I imagine you'd be right about the turians, though. Despite any inborn hostility some might have toward humans, if any, they're not really struggling for power, and given that they're more about straightforward military might, they'd probably just continue to play to their strengths.

 

The salarians are the ones I can see totally miscalculating and having Cerberus-level disasters. Even if well-intentioned, they seem as though their ability to grasp might often be at odds with their reach.

[Barquiel]

Wiped out a bunch of Reaper allies to get that tech too.

 

I don't think he was indoctrinated in ME2, or maybe just "latent" indoctrinated like Rana Thanoptis. But the catalyst explicitely said they controlled TIM during the actual war, so I don't really have a problem with cerberus attacking the citadel. The reapers need the citadel, they tried to use their indoctrinated pawns to get it.

[shodiswe]

Tbh, I belive it in-part was fan service for the people who wanted to shoot Udina. It also provided Thane an oppotunity die in battle rather than suffocating to death.

Fanservie, and a reason to change things around a bit on the citadel and rattle that golden cage.

[Ryriena]

I don't think he was indoctrinated in ME2, or maybe just "latent" indoctrinated like Rana Thanoptis. But the catalyst explicitely said they controlled TIM during the actual war, so I don't really have a problem with cerberus attacking the citadel. The reapers need the citadel, they tried to use their indoctrinated pawns to get it.

Rana was not indoctrinated she said she wasn't due to the research she was doing. She goes on to say that Saren would do the samething sooner or later too her. So she was not lanet indoctrinated. The Salarin you met while on your way to the breeding facility was in his lanet stage. In fact, he has enough contive abilities to fool you into letting him out. He was the one too show lanet indoctrination. I find it stupid that they would go the route with her as well as TIM. Since him getting indoctrinated is about as believable as Mirinda forgetting about her sister.

[SwobyJ]

We = Reapers

He never could have taken control, because we already controlled him.

Control = a form of Indoctrination?

Indoctrination -- from Reaper to subject, guided by the collective intelligence?

 

Thus:

Intelligence --> a Reaper (which one?..) --> Illusive Man --> Cerberus implanted soldiers

 

Degrees of control. Cerberus, for example, isn't outright indoctrinated *by* the Reapers, but they are subject to a degree of their control, through The Illusive Man - an entity who is at least a very high functioning subject of Reaper indoctrination, able to understand how the Reapers work and how to counter them in a way that would keep their tech level for salvaging.

 

And that makes Cerberus the bad guys, as Rachni were in their war, Krogan were in their war, Geth were in ME1, etc. The antithesis of 'our side'. But that doesn't make them automatically wrong about a lot of things.

[Ryriena]

^ That has nothing to do with what were talking about.

[SwobyJ]

Rana was not indoctrinated she said she wasn't due to the research she was doing. She goes on to say that Saren would do the samething sooner or later too her. So she was not lanet indoctrinated. The Salarin you met while on your way to the breeding facility was in his lanet stage. In fact, he has enough contive abilities to fool you into letting him out. He was the one too show lanet indoctrination. I find it stupid that they would go the route with her as well as TIM. Since him getting indoctrinated is about as believable as Mirinda forgetting about her sister.

 

Rana was latently indoctrinated. http://dictionary.re...browse/latently

The salarian was not latently indoctrinated. He had much more visible symptoms.

 

ME1 - She feels the same things that indoctrinated subjects were. She was simply highly functioning.

ME2 - Her efforts to 'atone', lead her to the most dangerous of places, working to make a 'perfect krogan'. This project would have been useful to Harbinger/the Reapers, looking for ideal subjects of the species.

ME3 - She attempts to kill top asari officials, speaking of voices in her head.

 

You can complain about ME1 if you want, but she was already describing the start of the indoc process quite clearly. An indoctrinated subject can be *allowed* to remain very high functioning for months and years, just as long as they serve their greater purpose.

 

^ That has nothing to do with what were talking about.

 

Maybe read over the thread again. The discussion lead to 'how indoctrinated is Cerberus/TIM?', as that may relate to the Citadel being taken.

[General TSAR]

Usurp seat of power, secure the Catalyst, effectively control Mass Relay Traffic, establish a stronghold for future assaults, neutralize VIPs, abduct civilians for experimentation or recruitment.

 

I thought it was pretty straight forward. 

[KaiserShep]

Usurp seat of power, secure the Catalyst, effectively control Mass Relay Traffic, establish a stronghold for future assaults, neutralize VIPs, abduct civilians for experimentation or recruitment.

 

I thought it was pretty straight forward. 

 

I guess it's too bad for them that their priorities were backwards. Before causing massive chaos on the Citadel and attacking the civilian population, it might've helped to close off the station to prevent any reinforcements from the outside from assisting the remainder.