156 réponses à ce sujet

[SwobyJ]

I guess it's too bad for them that their priorities were backwards. Before causing massive chaos on the Citadel and attacking the civilian population, it might've helped to close off the station to prevent any reinforcements from the outside from assisting the remainder.

 

Stop poking holes in the story. This is about Shepard and Shepard has to win, duh.

[corporal doody]

the back story behind the coup...AND A LOT OF OTHER THINGS THAT HAPPENED INBETWEEN ME2 AND 3 are reasons NOT to do the multi-media to tell a story!!  With the only way to get the whole story is by forcing us to buy poorly written books....or look at character made twitter feeds OR having to look at wikipedia.

 

BUGS the crap out of me to this day to find out what happened to Emily Wong....they couldnt even put the info the Liara's cabin...like Shadow Broker intel feed or some crap....they had to do it with TWitter???

[SwobyJ]

the back story behind the coup...AND A LOT OF OTHER THINGS THAT HAPPENED INBETWEEN ME2 AND 3 are reasons NOT to do the multi-media to tell a story!!  With the only way to get the whole story is by forcing us to buy poorly written books....or look at character made twitter feeds OR having to look at wikipedia.

 

BUGS the crap out of me to this day to find out what happened to Emily Wong....they couldnt even put the info the Liara's cabin...like Shadow Broker intel feed or some crap....they had to do it with TWitter???

 

Completely agree. It harms the IP.

[General TSAR]

I guess it's too bad for them that their priorities were backwards. Before causing massive chaos on the Citadel and attacking the civilian population, it might've helped to close off the station to prevent any reinforcements from the outside from assisting the remainder.

That's because BioWare's understanding of military operations and quality of writing in general has taken a severe nosedive since Mass Effect 1, they gotta keep showing the big bad being very bad. 

 

corporal doody, on 03 May 2014 - 2:19 PM, said:

the back story behind the coup...AND A LOT OF OTHER THINGS THAT HAPPENED INBETWEEN ME2 AND 3 are reasons NOT to do the multi-media to tell a story!!  With the only way to get the whole story is by forcing us to buy poorly written books....or look at character made twitter feeds OR having to look at wikipedia.

 

BUGS the crap out of me to this day to find out what happened to Emily Wong....they couldnt even put the info the Liara's cabin...like Shadow Broker intel feed or some crap....they had to do it with TWitter???

 

 

 

 

Word. 

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Did ME3 ever mention when TIM actually got Indoctrinated? During the games I always assumed he drew the idiot card when he decided to place the Reapers remains inside his hideout and that was how he got Indoctrinated. I didn't find out about the first contact thing until strolling around on the wiki much later.

ME3 drove the point home that he was indoctrinated, but the Evolution comic series is where we see the when for when TIM became indoctrinated and the how as well.

 

He was so high functioning he outright opposed other Reaper agents and found a way to control them

True, though in regards to finding a way to control them. The process of doing so created more forces for the Reapers to co-opt and make use of, aiding the Reapers in the long run in spite of working against the Collectors

[Iakus]

the back story behind the coup...AND A LOT OF OTHER THINGS THAT HAPPENED INBETWEEN ME2 AND 3 are reasons NOT to do the multi-media to tell a story!!  With the only way to get the whole story is by forcing us to buy poorly written books....or look at character made twitter feeds OR having to look at wikipedia.

 

BUGS the crap out of me to this day to find out what happened to Emily Wong....they couldnt even put the info the Liara's cabin...like Shadow Broker intel feed or some crap....they had to do it with TWitter???

 

 

How else are they going to "encourage" people to spend more money on the IP? 

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Which comic explained the coup exactly?

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Which comic explained the coup exactly?

I will admit that the Coup was generally nonsensical. Even with Udina being the desperate and stupid man he was, the half hearted attempt to capture and hold key areas of the CItadel still pretty much left it designed to fail.

 

As for what explains the set up for it, there is a video log in the wrecked lab (near the head armor piece that looks like what Kai Leng wears) that explains that Udina was willing to work with Cerberus, which would imply that he wasnt indoctrinated and just being a stupid fool.

[Orikon]

Honestly that never made much sense to me.

It was never explained,but I suppose it was supposed to be a turning point in the story for Ceberus when they went from "lets control the Reapers" to completely fighting for the Reapers,which obviously meant taking control of the Citadel,since Reapers could spare that many units and indoctrinated politicians. Its just my speculation,but that's what it always looked like to me. 

 

Cause' there's really no real reason why Cerberus would want to do it. For exactly is controlling the Reapers and uplifting humanity relevant to taking control of the citadel and the relays?

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Honestly that never made much sense to me.

It was never explained,but I suppose it was supposed to be a turning point in the story for Ceberus when they went from "lets control the Reapers" to completely fighting for the Reapers,which obviously meant taking control of the Citadel,since Reapers could spare that many units and indoctrinated politicians. Its just my speculation,but that's what it always looked like to me. 

 

Cause' there's really no real reason why Cerberus would want to do it. For exactly is controlling the Reapers and uplifting humanity relevant to taking control of the citadel and the relays?

Except there are a few things wrong with that:

• Udina isnt indoctrinated. He willingly worked with Cerberus. (Video Log in Chronos Station verifies this through TIM ordering Leng to make contact with Udina)
• Cerberus wasnt fighting for the Reapers ever afaik. The only reasoning that makes a bit of sense is that they were after it due to what was learned from their portion of the Mars Archive data.

The logic behind attacking the Citadel makes no sense despite what we know about what went on to make it happen, which in itself makes it a crap portion of the story to go through.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Except there are a few things wrong with that:

• Udina isnt indoctrinated. He willingly worked with Cerberus. (Video Log in Chronos Station verifies this through TIM ordering Leng to make contact with Udina)
• Cerberus wasnt fighting for the Reapers ever afaik. The only reasoning that makes a bit of sense is that they were after it due to what was learned from their portion of the Mars Archive data.

The logic behind attacking the Citadel makes no sense despite what we know about what went on to make it happen, which in itself makes it a crap portion of the story to go through.

 

That's why I think Indoctrination became a plot device as the series went on.

[Terminus Echoes]

Is it really complicated and controversial?

 

They launched an attack to take control of the Citadel so they could have control of the galaxy and stop the other races from helping Shepard/the Alliance. Udina helped them because he'd get more power, and he was fed up with the Council's BS, like the rest of us.

[Xamufam]

It was originally planned to be after Thessia but was moved when it was decided to make eden prime & Javik a DLC

The 3 catalyst missions

Eden Prime

Thessia

The Citadel

 

Source:

http://me3finalhours.com/

http://pastebin.com/9A1dwb3M

[Iakus]

Is it really complicated and controversial?

 

They launched an attack to take control of the Citadel so they could have control of the galaxy and stop the other races from helping Shepard/the Alliance. Udina helped them because he'd get more power, and he was fed up with the Council's BS, like the rest of us.

 

So Udina was fed up with the Council not helping Shepard and the Alliance.

 

So he threw in with Cerberus to keep the races of the galaxy fro helping Shepard and the Alliance

 

[SwobyJ]

So Udina was fed up with the Council not helping Shepard and the Alliance assisting humanity.

 

So he threw in with Cerberus to keep the races of the galaxy fro helping Shepard and the Alliance hopefully beat the Reapers off Earth another way.

 

 

Udina doesn't necessarily care as much about specifically destroying the Reapers or waging a war. He just wants the conflict to end so humanity survives. If Cerberus offers an expedient alternative, he'll go for it. The coup wouldn't have made sense later with Geth/Quarians/kindaSalarians/Asari/Turians on board, but until then, Shepard and co. are struggling to even get Turian and Krogan support, with the Crucible only partially completed.

[Dean_the_Young]

That's because BioWare's understanding of military operations and quality of writing in general has taken a severe nosedive since Mass Effect 1, they gotta keep showing the big bad being very bad. 

 

Word. 

 

'Since ME1'?

[I Tsunayoshi I]

That's why I think Indoctrination became a plot device as the series went on.

 

To an extent

[Kabooooom]

The Illusive Man was indoctrinated. I'd imagine the Reapers altered his thought patterns so he thought capturing the citadel would help his goals. It could be seen as a way for the reapers to control the citadel without a frontal assault (they obviously need the Citadel's help in harvesting the human race, they could control the relay network and the reapers knew about the crucible plans).

Pretty much this. It makes perfect sense when interpreted that way (and really, only that way).

Javik tells you that in his cycle, an Indoctrinated splinter group - analogous to Cerberus - tries to control the Reapers, fragmenting the resistance and causing the Crucible project to fail. In this cycle, TIM was exposed to Reaper tech early on, and if that wasn't enough he keeps the remains of a dead Reaper core literally outside his god damned office door, then he implants Reaper tech into every one of his soldiers and deliberately indoctrinate them.

The Reapers used Cerberus to oppose the Alliance. Every time allied forces are stuck fighting Cerberus, they aren't fighting the Reapers. Basic divide and conquer and diversion strategy. Meanwhile, TIM is deluded into thinking he is fighting for the good of humanity - ironically enough.

The Reapers use Cerberus to try to take control of the Citadel without losing any Reapers or Reaperized troops. Simple enough strategy. As a side note, Javik also mentions to you that the Reapers in his cycle allowed people to gather at refugee camps, in order to sneak indoctrinated refugees in and take them down from the inside. Although the Coup was bit different, it seems like they've used similar strategies before.

People often raise Sanctuary as an objection to the idea that Cerberus was always indoctrinated. But according to Javik, it is highly suggested that the Reapers actually implanted the idea that they could be controlled in the minds of the indoctrinated splinter group, perhaps suggesting that they did so with Cerberus as well. That would be an interesting possibility, and would require further consideration as to why the Reapers really attacked the place. However, a simpler explanation is that like Saren before him, who created a research base to study indoctrination while he was himself indoctrinated - so too did TIM create sanctuary. Although indoctrinated, he still had some degree of free will, just like Saren. If he didn't, he would be useless as a puppet.

The writers also weren't even particularly subtle about it. It is obvious that they wanted you to make the connection that Cerberus was indoctrinated from the start. Early in the game and proceeding throughout it, multiple major characters (such as Anderson) ruminate on Cerberus being indoctrinated and "working with the Reapers". Some even state with with matter-of-factness as if everyone already knows it to be true. And when Shep gets to Sanctuary, he is openly perplexed and says "I thought Cerberus was working with the Reapers?". They literally bash you over the head with their indoctrination.

[Uncle Jo]

Either was TIM already indoctrinated and then imo the Coup would "make sense" (for the Reapers). Other it was just for the lulz coz TIM is evil und Udina a very bad guy who must be shot.

 

Either way, we're stuck with space ninja and the most ridiculous one on one fight of the game. Just that ruins irrevocably the whole mission.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Either was TIM already indoctrinated and then imo the Coup would "make sense" (for the Reapers). Other it was just for the lulz coz TIM is evil und Udina a very bad guy who must be shot.

 

Either way, we're stuck with space ninja and the most ridiculous one on one fight of the game. Just that ruins irrevocably the whole mission.

As I already said, TIM was indoctrinated back in First Contact as shown in the Evolution comic mini-series. When said indoctrination was put to use on him though, one can not say as even in ME3 he was left alone enough to remain a fully functional individual.

[Farangbaa]

Is it really complicated and controversial?

 

They launched an attack to take control of the Citadel so they could have control of the galaxy and stop the other races from helping Shepard/the Alliance. Udina helped them because he'd get more power, and he was fed up with the Council's BS, like the rest of us.

 

What council bs?

 

Would it have made more sense if they went: "Oh man, Earth is under attack!!! Let us sacrifice our homeworlds to help you out, Shepard"

[SwobyJ]

What council bs?

 

Would it have made more sense if they went: "Oh man, Earth is under attack!!! Let us sacrifice our homeworlds to help you out, Shepard"

 

A lot of it is an emotional argument.

 

"Why aren't they respecting me more for being right?!?!!? I deserve it! I'm better than them! Why can't I force them into what I want them to do?"

[Farangbaa]

A lot of it is an emotional argument.

 

"Why aren't they respecting me more for being right?!?!!? I deserve it! I'm better than them! Why can't I force them into what I want them to do?"

 

It's the same in ME1. You go to the council, with some story about ancient sentient machines wiping out all organic life.. and then we're supposed to be angry because they don't believe us.

 

Imagine your best friend telling you a story like that. You'd probably laugh in his face. The council has to hear it from some random Alliance soldier who's main argumentative skill is screaming and yelling.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

A lot of it is an emotional argument.

 

"Why aren't they respecting me more for being right?!?!!? I deserve it! I'm better than them! Why can't I force them into what I want them to do?"

I'd make the argument of respect more.

 

How long have I been telling you to get ready for the Reapers again and just what did you do with all that time you had to do so?

[Uncle Jo]

Udina doesn't necessarily care as much about specifically destroying the Reapers or waging a war. He just wants the conflict to end so humanity survives. If Cerberus offers an expedient alternative, he'll go for it. The coup wouldn't have made sense later with Geth/Quarians/kindaSalarians/Asari/Turians on board, but until then, Shepard and co. are struggling to even get Turian and Krogan support, with the Crucible only partially completed.

It makes zero sense, be it before or after the galaxy races decide to get on board. I don't see any Council race calmly accept the Coup and their Councilor get killed and then lend Udina some mlitary forces they badly need for their own homeworld, just to save Earth. 

 

I also forgot to mention that the Reapers still took over the Citadel anyway and apparently without that much of effort...