156 réponses à ce sujet

[Kabooooom]

Perhaps, but the Reapers did attack Bekenstein, which as far as I am aware, can only be accessed by first traveling through the Widow system. If that is the case then the Reapers did manage to grease by the Citadel without raising too big of a fuss.

After Earth though I don't see why they would avoid the system. The Reapers have superiority over the organics. If they did attack the Citadel the best the organics could do would be to keep the wards closed but the Reapers would still occupy the system blocking off a major hub area of the Relay network and cripple the war effort for the organics. And due to the master control panel in the Keeper tunnel all it would take is a single Indoctrinated individual to sneak in there and control the station for the Reapers.

Yes, which is why I proposed that in addition to not wanting to lose the element of surprise, the next obvious advantage of not taking the Citadel would be to sneak in indoctrinated individuals with the refugees - which is exactly what Javik mentions the Reapers have done in the past. Prolonging taking the Citadel would also allow more refugees to show up, thus making them easy picking for the harvest.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe Bekenstein was attacked at the same time the Citadel was. I can't remember when the dialogue with Allers shows up, but wasn't it immediately after Cronos? If not, then yeah that makes zero sense. It would probably only take a few reapers to blast it from space, but it'd be hilarious if the Reapers just exited the relays by the Citadel and were all "don't mind us guys, we're just passing through to trash your backyard. We'll be back later"

[Ryriena]

It's the same in ME1. You go to the council, with some story about ancient sentient machines wiping out all organic life.. and then we're supposed to be angry because they don't believe us.

Imagine your best friend telling you a story like that. You'd probably laugh in his face. The council has to hear it from some random Alliance soldier who's main argumentative skill is screaming and yelling.

I tend to agree, I hated how they only gave a few dialogs in that scene. How are we sure that they're real and not a rouse used by Saren? Or just a movie player? We where so curtain that they where real. Which is not how role play works, I wonted to role play my Shepard by saying she wasn't so sure about it. The beacon itself put these images into her brain, so she wasn't too keen on the idea it was real. Why couldn't I agree with them about not being sure about the vision? It was pretty unclear what was happening in that vision. So I could not agree with them but we should find evidence of such creatures during our search what should do?

[KaiserShep]

Perhaps, but the Reapers did attack Bekenstein, which as far as I am aware, can only be accessed by first traveling through the Widow system.

 

I'm a bit fuzzy on the chain of events, but doesn't this happen after the assault on TIM's base, at which point the Citadel was already taken? I can't remember anything on any ANN announcements, and I never hear anything about it until Allers mentions Bekenstein.

[SporkFu]

The reapers didn't really attack Bekenstein either, they just did a fly-by and bombed all the binocular factories from orbit. 

[Deathsaurer]

The Council apparently DID think Sovereign was a Reaper thanks to the Citadel DLC. What they did or didn't do to prepare as a result is unknown.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

The Council apparently DID think Sovereign was a Reaper thanks to the Citadel DLC. What they did or didn't do to prepare as a result is unknown.

Considering the pants-down reaction they had to the initial Reaper assaults on worlds, there wasnt any real preparation.

[Anacronian Stryx]

I guess that by that point in the story Cerberus is practically the reapers minions (though husk implants in TIM) and the reapers knew an alliance of races Vs. the reapers forming on the Citadel so they send in Cerberus to try mess up the alliance - (kill the council and all that).

[Ryriena]

Considering the pants-down reaction they had to the initial Reaper assaults on worlds, there wasnt any real preparation.

I tend to agree if the government officials thought Sovergin was a reaper then why not install Thaix cannons on all Citadel forces ships? Or high powered Kentic barriers for protection. They can't be like the republicans here in America and block everything..... I'm more of a Libertarian, so just jkl around a bit to keep from going off on people.

[Cakcedny]

Here's the timeline and my thoughts:

 

 

//SPOILERS ALERT

 

 

 

 

 

Cerberus conquered Omega between ME2 & ME3.

Before or after this, Liara went to Kahje and got ambushed by Cerberus.

TIM got the info leads to the database on Mars.

TIM tried to take over Shadow Broker's ship on Hagalaz, but Liara destroyed the ship, leaving some database to TIM.

TIM established project Eva.

TIM sent Eva to Mars, and probably got the data. //The brutal reaper augmentation of Cerberus soldiers were found.

TIM tried to sabotage the mission on Sur'Kesh. //Why did he want this?

TIM tried to bomb Tuchanka.

TIM committed coup on Citadel, but then retrieved the mission. //What did he get from this?

TIM tried to murder all the scientists that betrayed him.

TIM sent Kai Leng to Thessia, set up an ambush for Shepard, got the Prothean VI.

TIM experiment reaper tech on Horizon, the mission was led by Henry Lawson.

TIM experimented himself with reaper tech, mentioned Paul Grayson.

TIM told the reapers something he knew.

TIM somewhat got to Citadel, confronted Shepard and Anderson, then died. //Well, he loves Shepard from the bottom of his heart, why that?

[Kabooooom]

TIM tried to sabotage the mission on Sur'Kesh. //Why did he want this?

Cerberus, including TIM, were indoctrinated. Preventing the genophage cure would prevent the Krogan from unifying and joining the Turians and humans in a combined front against the Reapers. That is the most straightforward explanation for the attack, and also for the subsequent Cerberus attacks on Tuchanka.

For TIM, he probably thought he was protecting humanity from stopping the genophage cure, as all indications were that the Krogan would spread across the galaxy again if it was cured. But his plans clearly and obviously would have aided the Reapers perfectly and TIM was seemingly oblivious to this simple truth. Which is further evidence that he was indoctrinated, for if he truly cared about humanity, he would do anything in his power to help humanity survive against the Reapers - including using the Krogan as tools of war once more.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

I tend to agree if the government officials thought Sovergin was a reaper then why not install Thaix cannons on all Citadel forces ships? Or high powered Kentic barriers for protection. They can't be like the republicans here in America and block everything..... I'm more of a Libertarian, so just jkl around a bit to keep from going off on people.

Thanix Cannons were standard issue on Turian ships I believe since they were the ones to develop the tech after Sovereign got wrecked. Though I think that was more them just maintaining the status quo of military superiority than preparing for the Reapers.

[Kabooooom]

There also wasn't much they could really do in preparation for the Reapers anyways, except maybe start trying to churn out enough dreadnoughts to put up a decent fight.

[Ryriena]

Thanix Cannons were standard issue on Turian ships I believe since they were the ones to develop the tech after Sovereign got wrecked. Though I think that was more them just maintaining the status quo of military superiority than preparing for the Reapers.

I tend to agree. I need to reread my codex entry for Thanix canons. However, they blew right threw the damn military ships of the Turians even thought it took on a freaking Collector type ship. I'm guessing they didn't get the damn idea that Maybe you should upgrade those shields around your ship too...

[Iakus]

There also wasn't much they could really do in preparation for the Reapers anyways, except maybe start trying to churn out enough dreadnoughts to put up a decent fight.

 

Or develop weapons that could punch through kinetic barriers.

[RZIBARA]

Nope

[Display Name Owner]

I like to think that TIM wanted to help Udina throw the Citadel fleets at Earth and let them get destroyed to put the other species in a worse position post-war. Not that he'd need it if he actually somehow controlled the Reaper fleet, but every little helps I guess. Also he might have wanted to distract the Reapers, however briefly, whilst he was doing his antics. Although if that were the case all he had to do was sit back and let the Reapers take their time rolling over the galaxy. Actually it seems like he really didn't need to involve himself at all. Which leaves *groan* ...Indoctrination.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

I like to think that TIM wanted to help Udina throw the Citadel fleets at Earth and let them get destroyed to put the other species in a worse position post-war. Not that he'd need it if he actually somehow controlled the Reaper fleet, but every little helps I guess. Also he might have wanted to distract the Reapers, however briefly, whilst he was doing his antics. Although if that were the case all he had to do was sit back and let the Reapers take their time rolling over the galaxy. Actually it seems like he really didn't need to involve himself at all. Which leaves *groan* ...Indoctrination.

 

Which I have said repeated was the case with TIM. He was indoctrinated all the way back in First Contact War during his merc days aiding the Alliance. Give Evolution a good read.

[Kabooooom]

I think the majority of players accept that TIM was Indoctrinated all along now. Or at least, the idea seems much more accepted than when people like me would present it in the past. Maybe because of Evolution, maybe because it makes the story sensible, I don't know.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

I think the majority of players accept that TIM was Indoctrinated all along now. Or at least, the idea seems much more accepted than when people like me would present it in the past. Maybe because of Evolution, maybe because it makes the story sensible, I don't know.

Well... It comes down to this. If people are aware of Evolution and/or read it. Then they know that TIM was always indoctrinated and essentially left to be a human version of Saren. Those that dont know about that mini-series or worse, refuse to acknowledge canon, will always claim that TIM was loldoctrinated and ignore all reasoning that would point out how and why they are wrong.

 

Speaking of Saren, I'm beginning to wonder when exactly his indoctrination had started, as he had a major role to play as well in Evolution and that was his first encounter with Reaper tech prior to his encounter with Sovereign.

[General TSAR]

The Council apparently DID think Sovereign was a Reaper thanks to the Citadel DLC. What they did or didn't do to prepare as a result is unknown.

The archives of the Citadel DLC also had a Turian Interrogator knowing the location of Earth during the First Contact War before/during the assault on the Shanxi.

[Daemul]

I think the majority of players accept that TIM was Indoctrinated all along now. Or at least, the idea seems much more accepted than when people like me would present it in the past. Maybe because of Evolution, maybe because it makes the story sensible, I don't know.

 

Nope, not until someone explains why the Reapers would allow TIM to play a key part in not only bringing about the downfall of the Collectors, but also the destruction of a Reaper they were building. Not to mention why he was allowed to fund the rebuilding of Shepard, when the Reapers knew he had a part to play in Sovereigns failure to open the Citadel relay, why Cerberus was able to work against the Reapers by trying to find a way to control them, and oh yes, why the Reapers attacked Sanctuary. I have never heard of an indoctrinated figure who was allowed so much leeway that he continually worked against those he was supposed to be under the control of. 

[Kabooooom]

I think Saren wasn't truly indoctrinated until after he encountered Sovereign (subsequent to the mission with Anderson on Camala). That was not that long after the First Contact War, comparatively. Either way, he had been indoctrinated for decades.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Nope, not until someone explains why the Reapers would allow TIM to play a key part in not only bringing about the downfall of the Collectors, but also the destruction of a Reaper they were building. Not to mention why he was allowed to fund the rebuilding of Shepard, when the Reapers knew he had a part to play in Sovereigns failure to open the Citadel relay, why Cerberus was able to work against the Reapers by trying to find a way to control them, and oh yes, why the Reapers attacked Sanctuary. I have never heard of an indoctrinated figure who was allowed so much leeway that he continually worked against those he was supposed to be under the control of. 

 

I think the problem is with TIM being Indoctrinated at all. The current universe explanation is not intuitive because the events of ME2 discredit the notion that he was Indoctrinated at all, while the perspective from purely playing the games (did they ever explain the events of the comics?) has TIM acting very idiotic.

[Kabooooom]

Indoctrination isn't an all-or-nothing event. The less free will that is granted to an indoctrinated subject, the less valuable they are to the Reapers. TIM was indoctrinated, but for much of the story his mind was largely under his control - until Mass Effect 3, and specifically prior to the start of ME3. People that think that indoctrination = instant automatous Reaper slave either didn't pay enough attention to the story, the codex, or both.

And I explained the Sanctuary thing in another post. It is often raised as an objection to him being indoctrinated, but it really isn't one at all considering that Javik tells you as much.

It would be like saying Saren wasn't indoctrinated because he built a research facility on Virmire to study the effects of indoctrination. But of course, he was indoctrinated all along.