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[I Tsunayoshi I]

I think the problem is with TIM being Indoctrinated at all. The current universe explanation is not intuitive because the events of ME2 discredit the notion that he was Indoctrinated at all, while the perspective from purely playing the games (did they ever explain the events of the comics?) has TIM acting very idiotic.

 

Besides what Ka just posted, it is also worth mentioning that there was no Reaper in a position to make use of TIM's indoctrination for at least a 2 year timeframe, meaning that TIM was more than able to act as he felt was needed during that time frame to set up his own plans to fight against the Reapers.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Well that's why I say it's not intuitive at all. ME2 TIM is directly opposing the Reapers through their proxy, the Collectors; and that's just from the lore perspective, from a story perspective this just feels like an asspull. I think the explanation that he was Indoctrinated, but not Indoctrinated enough so that it appears he's not Indoctrinate at all, just leads to confusion. While I understand that Indoctrination isn't a process of absolutes, TIM opposing the Collectors seems like an absolute and doesn't appear to lie on any sort of greyscale. I don't think there is another instance of this happening in the story, unless it happened somewhere in the comics.

 

I think it's important to note that for a player getting his information from the games, and just the games, it seems like TIM got Indoctrinated when he installed the Reaper remains in his base, as there is nothing to suggest other wise in ME2 or ME3 -- as far as I can recall.

 

And even without a Reaper to give orders Indoctrinated individuals do have a sort of default behavior which we've seen from the machine cultists.

[Kabooooom]

I do agree that it isn't totally intuitive if someone has only played the games. However, like I pointed out earlier, it seems like bioware REALLY super duper wanted players to think Cerberus was indoctrinated throughout the entirety of Mass Effect 3. After Mars, countless main characters go out of their way to comment on How they think Cerberus and TIM are indoctrinated and "working with the reapers". Some even state it like it is obvious, and Shep is surprised and confused at Sanctuary by remarking "I thought Cerberus was working with the reapers?"

I think the confusion over TIMs indoctrination primarily lies in the way the story is constructed. The writers clearly and obviously wanted to get across the point that Cerberus was working for the reapers, even going so far as to have Javik tell you that this is a recurring theme in the cycles. But, the way the events of the story are outlined give the player the impression that Cerberus is just opposing the Alliance because of their own (poorly defined) motives. But when viewed through the lens of indoctrination, as it should be, their actions go from being nonsensical to making sense in the larger scope of indirectly aiding the Reapers in the war.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Well that's why I say it's not intuitive at all. ME2 TIM is directly opposing the Reapers through their proxy, the Collectors; and that's just from the lore perspective, from a story perspective this just feels like an asspull. I think the explanation that he was Indoctrinated, but not Indoctrinated enough so that it appears he's not Indoctrinate at all, just leads to confusion. While I understand that Indoctrination isn't a process of absolutes, TIM opposing the Collectors seems like an absolute and doesn't appear to lie on any sort of greyscale. I don't think there is another instance of this happening in the story, unless it happened somewhere in the comics.

 

I think it's important to note that for a player getting his information from the games, and just the games, it seems like TIM got Indoctrinated when he installed the Reaper remains in his base, as there is nothing to suggest other wise in ME2 or ME3 -- as far as I can recall.

 

And even without a Reaper to give orders Indoctrinated individuals do have a sort of default behavior which we've seen from the machine cultists.

 

You mean the folks that get straight up Husk'd? Pretty sure thats what happens when you get the full hit from Reaper tech and not just slight exposure.

[Display Name Owner]

Which I have said repeated was the case with TIM. He was indoctrinated all the way back in First Contact War during his merc days aiding the Alliance. Give Evolution a good read.

I know that he was indoctrinated to some degree all along and it probably got worse and worse after he hung the Human Reaper up in the middle of his base. It's just that it's also the least interesting explanation for his actions in ME3. Anyway, indoctrination doesn't always just make someone a slave to the Reapers, it preys on what objectives they already had. TIM was inadvertently helping the Reapers, but in his own head he was doing what was best for Cerberus/Humanity.

[Kabooooom]

It's just that it's also the least interesting explanation for his actions in ME3.

Yea, unfortunately. But, it is the most satisfying explanation as it is the most explanatory and the one most supported by multiple lines of evidence in the story...likely because it's the explanation that the writers intended. Which kind of sucks a little bit because it sidelines all the interesting attributes of Cerberus in favor of indoctrination.

indoctrination doesn't always just make someone a slave to the Reapers, it preys on what objectives they already had. TIM was inadvertently helping the Reapers, but in his own head he was doing what was best for Cerberus/Humanity.

I think this is the point that most people miss. TIM had lofty goals and he truly thought he was doing the right thing for humanity and the galaxy at large...but almost everything he did helped the Reapers perfectly, and he was too far gone to realize that.

[Applepie_Svk]

because of reaperz - you know...