263 réponses à ce sujet

[Rhifox]

I did the Dark Ritual on my first character, who was a mage who didn't want to be a Grey Warden in the first place, let alone sacrifice her life for it. I don't do it these days with my usual warrior character though, since that character is noble and heroic and would not jeopardize Ferelden/Thedas' safety on any kind of dark magic like that, especially from someone like Morrigan.

[congokong]

If becoming a warden was her choice then she'd probably refuse it since sacrifice is expected, but my pc wouldn't turn down a way out of dying offered by her BFF Morrigan in a cause that was forced on her. I also appreciated Morrigan's honesty about it although she left much unsaid. Maybe lying would have only made it worse though.

 

The ultimate sacrifice is devalued somewhat by the knowledge that the warden refused a way out. Even in an Alistair romance where such a sacrifice would give a nice sad ending it too is devalued because Alistair will always take the killing blow if brought along. Leaving him at the gate taints the whole thing and is strategically stupid.

[congokong]

The most obvious reason is to, you know, just believe that Flemeth is going to bodysurf into Morrigan and continue doing so. I mean, Flemeth refuses to actually deny planning that, after all.

 

Even if you don't, Flemeth is a fabled monster of legends who makes a game of killing templars, seduces men then kills them, and Maker knows what else. Later on, it's implied she's not either blood mage, human, or abomination. She may have saved you, but that could've been done out of self-interest -- stopping the Blight -- than any actual altruism on her part.

 

I have a certain respect for Flemeth because she never actually lies to you. If she doesn't want you to know something she just won't tell you. When Morrigan asked her about Flemeth's other daughters instead of lying Flemeth just refused to speak of them.

 

I've yet to see Flemeth do anything that's truly "evil." The whole daughter possession thing is a matter of survival; something I'm sure many people would do if given the opportunity. Killing templars too is about survival. Flemeth even gives them a warning that they always refuse.

 

Flemeth only saved the wardens because of their usefulness in:

1. Stopping the blight

2 Using them for the dark ritual

 

As to what she is, it's possible she's an old god or someone possessing an old god's soul like the result of Morrigan's dark ritual.

 

http://dragonage.wik...eory_of_Flemeth

[Xetykins]

I always give Flemeth the benefit of the doubt, and lie to my bff Morrigan. I really dont know what to make of her :-/

[Ryzaki]

I accept the ritual half and half but honestly I think I'll tweak my canon to have my warden always do the US in the Keep. Except my mage he'll get Loghain to kill himself.

[Milan92]

Depend how it will turn out in DA:I. If the OGB is gonna be a big pain in the ass then I'll have Loghain sacrifice himself. If the OGB won't really backfire then I'll keep doing the DR.

[s17tabris]

Didn't do the ritual.

 

Non-metagaming reason: Morrigan didn't want to divulge any information on what she was planning to do so my warden didn't accept DR and just hoped that Riordan would be able to deliver the killing blow.

 

Metagaming reason: Killed my warden so I wouldn't have to headcanon why she disappeared and where she went, or wouldn't have to worry about BioWare screwing up the warden's story in future games.

[sylvanaerie]

Depends.  I've done both and what story i want to tell.  I don't 'prefer' one ending over the other, unless it's to prefer the Warden becomes OGB father over Alistair.  I always romance him on my girls and it adds a bit of bitter to the sweet that, in order to both survive, he has to do the DR.

 

I did once recruit Loghain on a male warden and force him to do the DR (used all three endings on that one to see them) just to see the scenes with him in the landsmeet chamber at the end.  

 

Morrigan's skills don't account for much in my games since my preferred class is mage, and I find 'shapeshifter' particularly useless as a skill.

[KaiserShep]

I've yet to see Flemeth do anything that's truly "evil." The whole daughter possession thing is a matter of survival; something I'm sure many people would do if given the opportunity.

 

Assuming it's true, that's actually pretty freakin' evil. It doesn't matter if it's for survival at all. If your solution to never succumbing to old age is replacing your progeny's consciousness with your own, then you'd pretty much be a parasite. I'm sure many people would do a lot of messed up things.

[Cobra's_back]

It depends on the trophy. CE kills herself killing archy, HN sleeps with Morrigan so that he becomes the Chancellor. I let the common dwarf die as well so that he becomes a paragon.

[Cobra's_back]

Assuming it's true, that's actually pretty freakin' evil. It doesn't matter if it's for survival at all. If your solution to never succumbing to old age is replacing your progeny's consciousness with your own, then you'd pretty much be a parasite. I'm sure many people would do a lot of messed up things.

 

Morrigan's sister said it was a gift. From The Silent Grove

 

Spoiler

Alister-I'm told she possesses her daughters. Yavana-Is that right?HA! That poor confused child. It is a gift.

[BlazingSpeed]

If becoming a warden was her choice then she'd probably refuse it since sacrifice is expected, but my pc wouldn't turn down a way out of dying offered by her BFF Morrigan in a cause that was forced on her. I also appreciated Morrigan's honesty about it although she left much unsaid. Maybe lying would have only made it worse though.

 

The ultimate sacrifice is devalued somewhat by the knowledge that the warden refused a way out. Even in an Alistair romance where such a sacrifice would give a nice sad ending it too is devalued because Alistair will always take the killing blow if brought along. Leaving him at the gate taints the whole thing and is strategically stupid.

 

Quite true all Wardens to the front of the line! Just like Ostagar! lol just kidding Ostagar was Loghains crappy plan not the Wardens.

 

On topic no one in the Grey Wardens ever mentioned dying with the Archdemon not even in the fables of the past blights so my first Warden was thinking like oh boy....then Morrigan walked into the room.

[Secretlyapotato]

Uh, yeah! Why wouldn't I not only get a happy happy ending but also a magic demon/dragon baby? ^.^ Alistair had to do it though, due to my warden's ovaries.

[kalasaurus]

Like some other people said before me, it depends.  I usually play a female Warden, so the discomfort in manipulating Alistair (or Loghain, a couple times) into sleeping with and impregnating Morrigan does factor into it.  I'm not against the ritual itself, but the manipulation/coercion makes me uncomfortable.  And then it depends on what ending I want and how my Warden would approach the the ritual.  Surviving is always nice, of course.  I'd guess that the ratio of times I did the Ultimate Sacrifice or Dark Ritual ending would be 50/50.

[AlanC9]

Manipulation/coercion? I don't see either.

On-topic: My first Warden went US because he thought Morrigan was displaying the same arrogance that has led mages to disaster before, and since Anora would offer more of the unprincipled leadership that nearly destroyed Ferelden..... no other acceptable option existed. On other playthroughs I've generally done the DR, since I just find it more interesting that way. Not sure what I'm going to do on the current run, though. I might have Loghain take the hit. OTOH, I probably will do the DR since this will be a DAI import.

[kalasaurus]

Manipulation/coercion? I don't see either.
 

 

Ok, well I see it.  I'd rather not get into a debate on it, but it makes me uncomfortable to talk someone into having sex/procreating when they're clearly against and appalled by it.  And in the case of Alistair, will go through with it in fear of dying.

[theskymoves]

Manipulation/coercion? I don't see either.

"If you loved me, you'd do it."

That's pretty manipulative stuff, IMO.

[AlanC9]

"If you loved me, you'd do it."

That's pretty manipulative stuff, IMO.

We were talking about a case where the PC was female, though, so this wouldn't have come up. When does Morrigan actually say that, anyway? I can't find any such line.

As for the case in question, talking someone into doing something that might save her life? Or Alistair's life? She's trying to do you two a huge favor.

[sylvanaerie]

We were talking about a case where the PC was female, though, so this wouldn't have come up. When does Morrigan actually say that, anyway? I can't find any such line.

As for the case in question, talking someone into doing something that might save her life? Or Alistair's life? She's trying to do you two a huge favor.

 

Depends on how much you trust her and how you perceive her actions, as to what level of 'favor' she's doing you.  Her motives are hardly altruistic, though I do agree that if she is friends/lover with the PC warden, there is the 'saving the life of someone you care for' also driving her motivation to do this.  But let's face it, her entire reason for being in your party and helping you with the Blight was to get pregnant with the OGB, and she will use whatever means she can to manipulate you into doing it, including pulling out the 'loved one' card.  While she may have warmed up to a romanced PC, and loves him, it doesn't change that she knows she will be taking his child and going away, in all likelihood, never to see him again *unless you play Witch Hunt and follow her*.  

 

For a female, she pulls no punches using Alistair or Leliana's affection for the PC as a bargaining tool as well.  I've never been able to romance her to that point, but I could easily see 'if you loved me' being used as well.

[theskymoves]

We were talking about a case where the PC was female, though, so this wouldn't have come up. When does Morrigan actually say that, anyway? I can't find any such line.

As for the case in question, talking someone into doing something that might save her life? Or Alistair's life? She's trying to do you two a huge favor.

 

No, you misunderstand what I'm saying. I was responding to your argument that there's no manipulation or coercion of Alistair. 

 

"If you loved me, you'd do it," is the female PC speaking to romanced Alistair. 

 

Here's a vid cap of that very thing. Note that in this situation, I intentionally blew every argument with Alistair, and was still able to persuade him by playing the "If you loved me" card:

[Mike3207]

No, you misunderstand what I'm sayomg. I was responding to your argument that there's no manipulatiuon or coercion of Alistair. 

 

"If you loved me, you'd do it," is the female PC speaking to romanced Alistair. 

 

Here's a vid cap of that very thing. Note that in this situation, I intentionally blew every argument with Alistair, and was still able to persuade him by playing the "If you loved me" card:

Isn't the Persuade option called Coercion? The PC coerces Alistair and the rest of the companions throughout the game.Manipulation-in the eye of the beholder.

 

I'll agree Morrigan is manipulative though-and my male Amell is romancing her.

[kalasaurus]

My issue is that the action in question though is making Alistair have sex and impregnate someone he doesn't like or trust in a shady blood magic ritual (which also goes against his morals).  It may not seem like a big deal to some, but coercing/manipulating/persuading (or however you see it) someone into having sex and making a baby (that they will never get to see) when they're so clearly against it is a really low thing to do.  Not forgetting the fact that Morrigan isn't Mother of the Year material, though she may prove otherwise in Inquisition, *shrugs*.

 

I see that as different than the other coercion options in the game.  Yes, it saves their lives, which is why I've done it before.  But, that still doesn't stop me from feeling uncomfortable with the situation.

[AlanC9]

No, you misunderstand what I'm sayomg. I was responding to your argument that there's no manipulatiuon or coercion of Alistair. 
 
"If you loved me, you'd do it," is the female PC speaking to romanced Alistair. 
 

OK, I get it now. The only time I ever played the Alistair romance he broke up with the Warden at the Landsmeet, so I never saw this scene.

[KaiserShep]

My issue is that the action in question though is making Alistair have sex and impregnate someone he doesn't like or trust in a shady blood magic ritual (which also goes against his morals).  It may not seem like a big deal to some, but coercing/manipulating/persuading (or however you see it) someone into having sex and making a baby (that they will never get to see) when they're so clearly against it is a really low thing do.  Not forgetting the fact that Morrigan isn't Mother of the Year material, though she may prove otherwise in Inquisition, *shrugs*.

 

I see that as different than the other coercion options in the game.  Yes, it saves their lives, which is why I've done it before.  But, that still doesn't stop me from feeling uncomfortable with the situation.

 

I know, I must admit that it does feel kind of dirty. It's kind of made worse when you think more about how his entire life has pretty much been other people deciding his fate for him. Ah, the things we do to survive.

[congokong]

It was funny with my psychopath male mage who was romancing Morrigan. She asked if he'd do it and he thought, "Sex tonight and not dying by the archdemon tomorrow? Hell yes!"

 

Assuming it's true, that's actually pretty freakin' evil. It doesn't matter if it's for survival at all. If your solution to never succumbing to old age is replacing your progeny's consciousness with your own, then you'd pretty much be a parasite. I'm sure many people would do a lot of messed up things.

 

Most people are capable of "evil" if given the opportunity. Those we call criminals often seek out these opportunities. Many others don't but would accept if the opportunity presented itself. People can resist such temptations "but how many temptations will you offer a man before he gives in" as Fenris of DA2 puts it? Some will live law abiding lives until they find a lost wallet and take the cash out. As small as it is, that's an evil done out of innate greed. What Flemeth does is an evil out of survival.