263 réponses à ce sujet

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

Morrigan does not have a long-term tactical mind. Everything is about survival with her, what will benefit her and her companions in the present, at the expense of others--so money, power etc (i.e. the Elven slaves and those outcomes). She disapproved at Redcliff, even though Redcliff was going to be needed against the Darkspawn, and Arl Emmaon was needed for the lands meet. Saving the Elven slaves is also important for the Landsmeet; if one sells or kills the Elves then it looks bad to charge Loghain with slavery. Morrigan is somewhat of a cluster-**** when it comes to tactics.

Her disapproval (and Sten's and Oghren's, at times) just seems like bad writing to me. The alienage slaves thing is particularly stupid when the Warden is a city elf and romancing Morrigan.

[Andres Hendrix]

Her disapproval (and Sten's and Oghren's, at times) just seems like bad writing to me. The alienage slaves thing is particularly stupid when the Warden is a city elf and romancing Morrigan.

Yes, they wanted Morrigan to be both dark and practical but sometimes being 'dark' is not so practical and creates contradictions. Like at Redcliff etc. Therefore, the writing and the approval system did not always match up.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yes, there would be no witnesses to say, defend your actions either, it would just be Loghain's word against yours. If the Elves live, and you need them for evidence, the principle of induction puts the argument in your favor; you have Shani and the Elven city Elder who can back you up. Loghain will just have to come up with more lies.

You don't use their testimony even if they do live, probably because there's some sort of unfair law or tradition that makes the word of an elf not evidence. Besides, Caladrius does offer you a letter with the seal of Gwaren on it that apparently leads to the conclusion Loghain knew what was happening, so it's not like you're going in without evidence regardless of whether or not you kill the elves.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Her disapproval (and Sten's and Oghren's, at times) just seems like bad writing to me. The alienage slaves thing is particularly stupid when the Warden is a city elf and romancing Morrigan.

 

Or, you may have judged her character incorrectly.

 

Hate to say it, but if Morrigan truly saw the Warden in those slaves, then I doubt she would truly love the Warden.

 

Actually, I don't hate to say it. I love that she is not an angel.

[Andres Hendrix]

You don't use their testimony even if they do live, probably because there's some sort of unfair law or tradition that makes the word of an elf not evidence. Besides, Caladrius does offer you a letter with the seal of Gwaren on it that apparently leads to the conclusion Loghain knew what was happening, so it's not like you're going in without evidence regardless of whether or not you kill the elves.
 

It is still a better inductive case, for the claimant if the Elves live. Explain how it is not; forget about making up fake laws to confirm your bias. Explain how having the testimony of the actual Elves (citizens of Ferelden), who were being sold into slavery, does not help with an inductive argument that charges Lohgain with trying to sell slaves. Instead of just a letter as evidence, you have the letter and the evidence of the Elves who were being sold. A practical person, thinking of the long-term goal of the Landsmeet would not have them killed, or sold. As for the game not accounting for the Elves, it accounts for them in passing; the Elves were the ones being sold into slavery. It does not account for the physical evidence of the Elves themselves, or their testimonies, which was probably an oversight. 

[Andres Hendrix]

Or, you may have judged her character incorrectly.

 

Hate to say it, but if Morrigan truly saw the Warden in those slaves, then I doubt she would truly love the Warden.

 

Actually, I don't hate to say it. I love that she is not an angel.

"...they wanted Morrigan to be both dark and practical but sometimes being 'dark' is not so practical and creates contradictions. Like at Redcliff etc. Therefore, the writing and the approval system did not always match up."

[teh DRUMPf!!]

"...they wanted Morrigan to be both dark and practical but sometimes being 'dark' is not so practical and creates contradictions. Like at Redcliff etc. Therefore, the writing and the approval system did not always match up."

 

I do not see Morrigan as a "practical" person. =\

 

I think she is just the anti-Alistair/Wynne. That's to say, where Alistair and Wynne are bothered by the "evil" choices even when they may have practical value, Morrigan is bothered by chivalry even where practical.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

It is still a better inductive case, for the claimant if the Elves live. Explain how it is not; forget about making up fake laws to confirm your bias. Explain how having the testimony of the actual Elves (citizens of Ferelden), who were being sold into slavery, does not help with an inductive argument that charges Lohgain with trying to sell slaves. Instead of just a letter as evidence, you have the letter and the evidence of the Elves who were being sold. A practical person, thinking of the long-term goal of the Landsmeet would not have them killed, or sold. As for the game not accounting for the Elves, it accounts for them in passing; the Elves were the ones being sold into slavery. It does not account for the physical evidence of the Elves themselves, or their testimonies, which was probably an oversight. 

I suppose you're right about the potential benefits, assuming that the Warden could get away with that (and it is a gamble.) That said, I'll note that the Warden doesn't do this regardless, and there might be a reason that isn't besides dev oversight.

[Andres Hendrix]

I do not see Morrigan as a "practical" person. =\

 

I think she is just the anti-Alistair/Wynne. That's to say, where Alistair and Wynne are bothered by the "evil" choices even when they may have practical value, Morrigan is bothered by chivalry even where practical.

 

It does not matter how you see her, what matters in this case is how she was written (portrays herself). She is a person who is out for her own survival, she says it multiple times, and the game writers said this as well. Taking a so-called evil option or good option can hamper this survivalist (or practical) notion because evil and good options are not always conducive to bettering one’s own existence. Not only is there  unconditional (meaning there is no real practical gain for the actor) good options there is unconditional evil, people just act out those options-or what have you-because they are evil, or they are good.

If Morrigan acts in the aformentioned way, then she contradicts what she says about survival, ex. if she wants to survive the blight, and Loghain’s reprisal, then it is better to have the Redcliff army and Emon, it increases her chances. However, she acts as though the practical option should not be taken. In this case, the practical option of helping Redcliff lines up with a good moral distinction. Practical options can fall into the moral category of evil as well. Morrigan is seemingly biased more so towards evil options (though her character can change depending on if certain conditions are met). I agree that she is not actually practical; I think she is a walking contradiction, which rather suits her character.

[Andres Hendrix]

I suppose you're right about the potential benefits, assuming that the Warden could get away with that (and it is a gamble.) That said, I'll note that the Warden doesn't do this regardless, and there might be a reason that isn't besides dev oversight.

I am not talking about “potential benefits” I’m talking about the logic behind an inductive argument; which means supplying evidence to make your case. The more evidence you supply the better your inductive argument. It is simply better to have the Elves to go with the letter, than it is just to have the letter, because in the prior case there is more evidence to go with your argumeant. This is just logic, and because it is logic, and Bioware (not just their writers) does not always account for it in their story writing, I can therefore see it as just being an oversight.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I am not talking about “potential benefits” I’m talking about the logic behind an inductive argument; which means supplying evidence to make your case. The more evidence you supply the better your inductive argument. It is simply better to have the Elves to go with the letter, than it is just to have the letter, because in the prior case there is more evidence to go with your argumeant. This is just logic, and because it is logic, and Bioware (not just their writers) does not always account for it in their story writing, I can therefore see it as just being an oversight.

The "potential benefit" is that this will make you more credible, and more likely to win the Landsmeet. That is what you're talking about, right? Because while you're right that what you're suggesting should work, and possibly right that it would, I think you're overestimating the extent to which the nobles of Ferelden want to listen to a bunch of elves. They might put up with this for exactly the reasons you describe, or they might laugh you and your insolent knife-ears off the floor of the Landsmeet. Really hard to say.

[thedancingdruid]

Now that we have the Keep? No, I do not accept Morrigan's ritual.

 

It is not that I don't trust Morrigan, I believe she is the way she is because of her upbringing. I simply to not trust the ritual, especially as presented in the game, originating with Flemeth.

 

I also find, as a female gamer who prefers playing females to have to ask that of Alistair is, well: vulgar, repulsive, underhanded, selfish, and a whole slew of other adjectives that just leave me, the one behind the scenes, needing soap.

[Aren]

Now that we have the Keep? No, I do not accept Morrigan's ritual.

 

It is not that I don't trust Morrigan, I believe she is the way she is because of her upbringing. I simply to not trust the ritual, especially as presented in the game, originating with Flemeth.

 

I also find, as a female gamer who prefers playing females to have to ask that of Alistair is, well: vulgar, repulsive, underhanded, selfish, and a whole slew of other adjectives that just leave me, the one behind the scenes, needing soap.

Oh finally someone like me that consider this DR as a bad thing, i use to play as male who refuse the ritual even with a romance with morrigan, but i do not understand, why many female players choose to do the DR for Alistair i mean you send him to bed with Morrigan to save your life, i cannot imagine somthing more Ludicrous...

[Aren]

Witch hunt will solve that problem. I usually romance her so it doesnt feel that terrible to do it especially when they are reunited in Witch hunt.

 

I agree. It would not feel that terrible if the warden could do it himself/herself no matter what.

 

As I have said before, to me the thought of Morrigan laying with Alistair or worse, Loghain feels so very wrong in every possible way. This is why I play with a male character and often romance her so I can do it myself and not feel that bad about it. The moment when this feels bad is when I have romanced Leliana. I still do it because I just cant bring myself to ask Alistair to lay with a woman he absolutely hates. I wonder if the warden ever tells Leliana behind the scenes about it. I dont like the idea that the warden keeps it as a dirty little secret.

ahhhh the Dragon age keep need some honesty.......    well i dislike the idea of the DR for those reasons only a male who have a romance with Morrigan make this DR a grey choice instead of a sort of dirty secret.

But as i said before you cannot trust to someone who tells to you you will never see me again eccc...

Only as a player i'm omniscent and i know that 3 years in the future i have the chance to meet her again, but from a roleplayng point of view i know nothing.

The orlesian warden in witch hunt can make specific question to Morrigan about the blight but in the witch hunt dialogue official page there is nothing about the conversation option with the orlesian warden.

[SomeUsername]

Old thread I know but I gotta put this out there. Imo the best choice and my personal favorite would be doing the DR with the Warden and going to the portal with Morrigan afterwards. My Warden is a "good guy" and for Witch Hunt he goes with Morrigan to the portal, raising the child with her. I don't trust Morrigan to raise a child completely by her own, he might become a bit too much like her, and for an old God baby that's not a very good thing. But being raised by her AND the "good-hearted" Warden I think would make the child become basically like a hardened Alistair when he grows up. Doing the DR with anyone else or not sending the Warden to the portal I think is a bad choice. If you are gonna make an old God I would make sure the baby gets both of his parents to raise him and possibly be the best mixture of both parents.

[luna1124]

Well I usually play a male and romance Morrigan so I usually do the ritual. If I don't romance her then I usually have Loghain or Alistair do it in my place. My few female characters have romanced either Zevran or Leliana and I do the same with them. The one time I did romance Alistair was as a female city elf and I refused Morrigan's ritual. Then Alistair went all hero on me and sacrificed himself before I could even think. I really enjoyed that playthrough, but I didn't like how everyone (except Wynne) just kinda forgot about Alistair.

 

Basically, I prefer the ritual if in a romance with Morrigan. Otherwise it's a toss up between watching Loghain/Alistair's terrified face during the ritual or sending them to die. I've never actually done the sacrifice myself.

I know.. I thought the same thing... Nobody really cared about poor Alistair   

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I also find, as a female gamer who prefers playing females to have to ask that of Alistair is, well: vulgar, repulsive, underhanded, selfish, and a whole slew of other adjectives that just leave me, the one behind the scenes, needing soap.

I'll get dirty in the interests of not dying. That's what soap is for, after all.

[thedancingdruid]

I'll get dirty in the interests of not dying. That's what soap is for, after all.

 

Funny.

[Ryzaki]

I'll get dirty in the interests of not dying. That's what soap is for, after all.

 

Well I don't have to die and get to stay clean

[txchimama]

Since I normally play as a HF Noble,and I romance Alistair,yeah I persuade him to do the ritual-really enjoy watching my girl get married to the man she loves. But the character -HF Noble- I'm on now can't convince her love to sleep with Morrigan because he went invisible-and I can't talk to him.  

 

I don't know what happened-everything was going smoothly up to that point-or how to fix it! I have never done the US play,don't really want to-too much death around as it is.

 

Anyone have any ideas? 

 

Oops didn't mean for it to appear twice   Sorry

[txchimama]

Since I normally play as a HF Noble,and I romance Alistair,yeah I persuade him to do the ritual-really enjoy watching my girl get married to the man she loves. But the character -HF Noble- I'm on now can't convince her love to sleep with Morrigan because he went invisible-and I can't talk to him. 

 

I don't know what happened-everything was going smoothly up to that point-or how to fix it! I have never done the US play,don't really want to-too much death around as it is.

 

Anyone have any ideas?

[Zyrious]

Depends on the character i'm playing. I almost always play good characters, but i play them on a slider of pragmatism/practicality and honor/duty. However generally speaking i do the Ultimate Sacrifice. I play the Human Male Noble a *lot* and generally speaking i play him as someone with a personal sense of duty and honor, growing up hearing stories from his nanny of those in power growing selfish or corrupt. The idea of taking such a massive risk with the OGB, even if you've grown to trust Morrigan (and no matter who you are, waiting until you are most vulnerable to spring this up should lower your trust levels), goes against everything my Cousland believes in, no matter how scared he is.

 

When they get to the archdemon, i believe it to be selfish to let alistair take the fall for he is, in my couslands (biased of course) opinion, the last hope for stability in Ferelden. When in a position to make a difference, to alter my decisions based on how they benefit me personally as opposed to ferelden as a whole goes against any duty bound or honorable character i play. If i slide down more away from that view i might justify it as "I can take care of her and the OGB at a later date" (which you can actually say to alistair in the coronation) but it's still a huge risk. What if i die? What if the OGB proves more powerful/intelligent than a corrupted OG? What other magic does Morrgan plan to use the OGB for?

 

At the end of the day, the DR is a selfish decision. You can justify it or rationalize it away, that's a human thing to do, but it is a selfish and risky decision. At the end of the day, most of my characters think "Who am i, here and now, to unleash this unknown power unto the world to save my own life when i can suceed without it? Would i not undo all that i fight for? Is my life worth more than countless others? No". There is then also the point to be made; "And who is she, to bring this up now? Why not before? Why hide her intentions until we are most vulnerable, most afraid?". The answer is simple: Manipulation. No matter how in love with you she is, she will turn away from you if you do not give in. Because her ritual is her true first priority above all else.

 

I won't discuss Witch-hunt or other DLC since that's metagaming. Now with the keep, i have even less motive for the DR as i can play through the DLC as the orlesian and freely reconcile the two into a single canon.

[Zyrious]

I think that's a tad unfair considering all the people that potentially love the Warden and would be devastated if s/he died (depending on how nice you are) and/or the causes the Warden supports that have seem to have little chance of coming to fruition if you're dead (like gaining land for the Dalish, or pursuing fair treatment for the Circle if a Mage, etc).

 

I was going to tell her "NO!" but I thought Morrigan made a really good point when she mentioned how crushed Alistair would be to lose the woman he loved; especially since he's already devastated to have lost Duncan and the other Grey Wardens. (In fact, she makes a similar argument whenever you romance a companion.) Then, being a City Elf, I thought of Cyrion and how much it killed him to lose his wife Adaia, how much my Warden reminds him of her, how much grief he must have gone through to think his daughter was dead for over a year, and how much it would kill him to lose his daughter again. Then I thought of the city elves and how humans would never treat them fairly unless someone of consequence was around to make sure they acted better (like how the Warden stops Howe's and Loghain's slave-trading).

 

If it was just to save my character's life, she would have said, "No thanks, I'll take my chances tomorrow." But my character realized her life was beyond herself. We don't exist in a vacuum. Our lives affect the people around us. My character had serious misgivings about the ritual and felt nauseous and amoral and hesitant every step of the way, but what drove her to agree was the thought of sparing Alistair and Cyrion the grief of seeing her dead, possibly sparing Alistair's life should he be the one to die next day (and let's face it: he is the kind to take a blow for his love), and still being there for her people. (Because let's face it: humans won't change their attitude or treatment of city elves unless someone jabs their butts with a burning poker.)

 

As someone jokingly pointed out, if we feel dirty, there's soap for that. As I say, if it's really sooo traumatizing for Alistair to perform a sex ritual with Morrigan (I don't care about Loghain), there's years of mental healing for that. With death? There is no cure. There is no taking it back. Better to spend hours of makeshift therapy sessions than to put flowers on a grave.

 

PERSONALLY, I always thought it was rather selfish of people to die for their lover or friend because "I can't stand the thought of living without you / I couldn't live with the guilt if you died for me." But you expect THEM to be the one to live without YOU? You're inflicting that pain on them because you don't want to live with it? And if the two were in peril and Alistair was the one that died, one could argue that the Warden was selfish for expecting Alistair to be the one to die for you so you could live. All the worse since you knew of a way that could have saved his life but chose to ignore it.

 

Plus, in-universe, female Wardens can't help their gender. Meta gamer gender selection aside, I'm really worried by the people who act like the Male Warden is somehow morally superior for performing the ritual himself, even though he can only do it because he happened to be born with the right body parts whereas a Female Warden wasn't. I'm really worried about the people who condemn all female Wardens for being "selfish" for opting for the ritual when she doesn't perform it herself, even though she can't do it herself (even if she really, really, really wanted to). I think a "selfish decision" is when you can do something unpleasant yourself but choose to shirk it onto someone else, but less so when you cannot do it yourself and so ask someone else. (By that logic, Genitivi and Levi Dryden are both unforgivably selfish for asking the Warden to go into danger seeking the Urn and Soldier's Peak, even though they only do so because they can't physically do so for themselves, and they make it clear that they would have otherwise.) Why do the male Wardens deserve to live just because they happened to be born with penises, but female Wardens have to die (or be selfish bitches for not opting to do so) just because they were born with vaginas?

 

If my Warden could perform the ritual with Morrigan, she would have leaped at the chance.

Again though, i believe one can be selfish even when thinking of others. Wynne once said, correctly so, that love is inherently selfish. That conversation with her is actually some serious Forshadowing to this decision. If you place your loved ones above the well-being of ferelden or even Thedas itself (potentially), that is selfish. Understandable, but selfish. You're acknowledging the huge, inherent risk of allowing Morrigan untempered control over the soul of the very beast you intend to kill dominating over the body of your or alistairs child with maker knows what consequences, in order to either save yourself or the ones you love. Both can be selfish, that doesnt make it evil of course. But if you are a more duty bound or honorable character, imo it's a step too far.

 

As for your comment on women being "selfish" for forcing a male to do it; i haven't seen anyone in this thread say that (though i may have missed a post). What i have seen is people point out, rightfully so, that usually the only way you can get alistair to do it is manipulate him. If you just ask him flat up without coercian, he refuses to do it. So it enters morally questionable territory when you manipulate him to do it. With that said, i do believe you can actually flat out tell him the whole truth about what the ritual intails with then just a single pursuade check of "trust me" at the end which doesn't seem particularly manipulating to me, especially when he asks you what your opinion is. I see manipulating Loghain as totally legit though. Bastard.

 

At the end of the day though it doesn't matter if you're male or female, the DR is choosing yourself or the people you loved in the short term over ferelden and perhaps thedas itself in the long term. Allowing the very thing you seek to destroy to loom over creation from the shadows raised by the daughter of flemeth (whom is also still out there most likely even after slaying her) which was their plan the entire time (having used you and lied to you up til this point). We don't know everything about the Old Gods, but we know they were sealed away for a reason and may have likely been involved in the fall of the golden city and rise of the darkspawn themselves. Too many risks and unknowns, when you can just take one for all of thedas yourself (again, only applies to honorbound/dutiful characters). Now obviously you can get into the weeds with things like witch hunt and epilogues and sequels but really, that's metagaming. You have to decide then and there based on what the Warden knows and believes is right.

 

That morrigan tries to use your loved ones to push you into doing it (3 times in a row before she gives up) makes wynne\s forshadowing all the more sweet. Such good writing here.

[MacNille]

I did that. Don't want my warden to die.