52 réponses à ce sujet

[Blazomancer]

@DarthGizka - Thanks mate. Yup triple ED would most likely be extremely quick. If you want to try it using your current mage, you can use the addparty script to add Morrigan and Wynne in your active party.


I'm a bit confused about the flanking bonus to critical chance thing.

It reads "fCriticalHitModifier *= ( 1.0 + (fFlanking/ 5.0 ));". So doesn't it mean critical rate is increased by fCriticalHitModifier*(fFlanking/5.0)? I don't really know much about scripting, so help me out here.

[DarthGizka]

Good catch - I had only skimmed the formula for the features mentioned in the wiki, instead of properly parsing it. My only excuse is that I had just returned from work and my brain was sputtering along on empty.

// ---------------------------------------------------------------------
// Also increase chance for critical hits by 1/5th of the flanking bonus
// ---------------------------------------------------------------------
fCriticalHitModifier *=  (1.0 + (fFlanking/5.0));

fFlanking is the flanking bonus, which is a number between 0.0 and 7.5 for non-rogues and up to 20.0 for rogues with Combat Movement. fCriticalHitModifier is the critical chance in percent. The '*=' operator multiplies the left hand side by the right hand side; e.g. 'x *= 2' is a shorthand for 'x = x * 2'.

The result is that the critical chance gets multiplied by up to 2.5 for non-rogues and up to 5.0 for rogues. That is completely different from what the comment and the wiki say should happen.

For meleeing rogues this is moot since their flanking attacks get turned into non-shattering backstabs anyway, but for everyone else it makes things very interesting indeed if there is some critical chance worth multiplying.

[Blazomancer]

Rushing Ser Cauthrien (~23 seconds)

 

Without retreating, pausing, healing, getting stunned, or using poultices and potions.

 

Team: DW Rogue Warden (Assassin-Bard), DW Alistair (Temp-Champ), Wynne (SH/BM), Morrigan (SS/BM)

 

 

[DarthGizka]

Impressive. Fast, furious, precision action. That's the fastest, cleanest Cauthrien kill I've ever seen. And creative, effective tactics programming.

[Ironman Gaming]

I figure I'd share some of my videos and tactics here since I haven't seen anyone else really play the game in a manner like this of not kiting the ogre (or any mob/encounter at all) starting from the origin story (dwarf/noble)...It's easy to not kite when your defense hits sky high levels, but at Level 1 (during the bulk of the Dwarf Noble Origin Story, it's a bit harder with limited talents/skills).  I also pretty much try to aggro all the mobs within a set group/pack.

 

I should have more interesting videos as I get further in the game...Reason is tactics and training of the character is completely different when you are solo and don't pull/kite and go toe to toe or at least reposition to have a wall at your back  (like wolves are just deadly with chain overwhelm...see my other video where I get overwhelmed twice and get down to 2 hps).  Also, every encounter early on is a challenge when every encounter is 4-5 vs 1 odds.  For a rogue (and maybe warriors too), traps help a ton, but unfortunately, components are very limited.

 

 

For my Rogue, I had to get enough STR to wear heavy armor to survive a grab (which I did in the original noreload playthrough).  On some earlier testing, it wasn't possible to survive a grab with the amount of hps available at Lvl 6 without heavy armor.

 

Tower of Ishal Ogre, Rogue Dual Wield Dwarf:

 

 

Also, here's my mage one with no kiting neither, but I doubt she'd survive a grab...key is lightning spells (electricity) which can shutdown any physical mob (non-spells) which uses talents...Sorta sad that a physical character takes 7 minutes while a mage can do this in < 1 minute.  Bombs seem to scale with magic score too?  That's lame:

 

 

The same Mage destroying the ogre in 40 seconds with bombs as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpsErU5XHqE

 

 

Earlier fight against 7 darkspawn with my rogue:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhEWQGnSRvQ

[DarthGizka]

Very nice indeed! That's the fastest and most efficient Ishal finale I've ever seen.

 

What I like especially is that the horror effect duration isn't scaled down in the Nightmare combo, which makes it the ultimate boss stun. Ten seconds is a small eternity when even Paralysis Explosion and Petrify run out after only four seconds... For minor bosses like the Ishal ogre (PE scaled down to seven seconds) it is still three seconds more during which to wreak havoc, with Sleep and Waking Nightmare giving yet more 'free' attacks before and after.

 

Lack of firepower must be a real drag for general adventuring, though, with the small AoE of Walking Bomb and the one-minute cooldown for Nightmare. For my current toon it is the exact opposite: fast in nuking enemy hordes, and painfully slow in dispatching single hard enemies like revenants and especially bossy ogres. It took her more than four minutes to solo the Ishal ogre, since the bloody bastard resisted all four spells of the initial volley. At 22.5% spell resistance that should be a rare occurrence but it crimped my style with 100% certainty.

 

How did your mage fare on the AggrAll front? With my current mage I've been doing pretty much the same right from the start, and I'm having a blast. However, Ajira went for overwhelming firepower first and so she couldn't afford Sleep until level 12 (which is still much earlier than my other mages who got it only in their late teens when all was done and dusted, which is why I haven't got much combat experience with Nightmare yet).

 

P.S.: I tagged your Ishal videos as level 6 and the Korcari one as level 3. The latter was a much wilder guess than the former, since the XP values only indicate that Hitori entered the Wilds before level 4.

[Ironman Gaming]

Very nice indeed! That's the fastest and most efficient Ishal finale I've ever seen.

 

What I like especially is that the horror effect duration isn't scaled down in the Nightmare combo, which makes it the ultimate boss stun. Ten seconds is a small eternity when even Paralysis Explosion and Petrify run out after only four seconds... For minor bosses like the Ishal ogre (PE scaled down to seven seconds) it is still three seconds more during which to wreak havoc, with Sleep and Waking Nightmare giving yet more 'free' attacks before and after.

 

Lack of firepower must be a real drag for general adventuring, though, with the small AoE of Walking Bomb and the one-minute cooldown for Nightmare. For my current toon it is the exact opposite: fast in nuking enemy hordes, and painfully slow in dispatching single hard enemies like revenants and especially bossy ogres. It took her more than four minutes to solo the Ishal ogre, since the bloody bastard resisted all four spells of the initial volley. At 22.5% spell resistance that should be a rare occurrence but it crimped my style with 100% certainty.

 

How did your mage fare on the AggrAll front? With my current mage I've been doing pretty much the same right from the start, and I'm having a blast. However, Ajira went for overwhelming firepower first and so she couldn't afford Sleep until level 12 (which is still much earlier than my other mages who got it only in their late teens when all was done and dusted, which is why I haven't got much combat experience with Nightmare yet).

 

 

Yeah, Nightmare does wicked damage.

 

I built this mage and picked the spells purely to just destroy the ogre so it probably won't be as useful on normal mobs...Still, sleep is a pretty long stun, then you horror, walking bomb (cause hitting the sleep mob will wake it)...wait and see what's left after the boom.

 

AND...I'm really surprised not many people really post much on using lightning spells (generally the least liked), having a pretty important use if you can actually just shutdown special attacks from deadly bosses.  It's on wikia that it drains stamina, but as shown (and anyone can test), you can pretty much keep all the stamina off so he can't fire off any special attacks (in a party, etc...).

 

Sorta one reason for a lot of us to do solo (and for me, AggrAll, no kite mode) since you can develop new tactics to solving a problem (eg: Grab from the Ogre)...

 

I haven't tried a solo mage AggrAll playthrough since I've always played mages and wanted to open all the chest and disarm the traps as well as do all the stealing quests at Denerim (I do enjoy reading your mage playthrough notes!), but it's definitely the easiest class to solo IMO...Typically, almost all my mages start with fireball (fast cooldown), cold spells to clean up a bit when they get close...

 

You can see my vid fighting the desire demon and 5 templars in the circle tower...the chain of spells: fireball, mind blast, cone of cold, waking bomb...then another fireball will kill a lot of simple mobs rather quickly.  Especially since a mage typically just boosts Magic...I think the walking bomb actually did 145 damage since the mobs were close to each other...

 

Forcefield doesn't work on the templars since they will dispel it and you will be in a world of hurt (you can't walking bomb and forcefield yourself for easy mode).  That desire demon/templar fight is probably my favorite mage one.

[DarthGizka]

When I was done with analysing the data for pet stats and related stuff, there wasn't enough play time left for heading into the Deep Roads as planned. So I decided to do a bit of frapsing in the same vein as Ironman's AggrAll videos, but starring a nuker mage in order to dispel the notion that mages are somehow slow. I picked the Tower of Ishal because all the videos I've seen so far featured drawn-out, harrowing battles instead of fast & fun romps. Another reason for choosing this particular mission for a blitzkrieg demo is the theory that the Warden was partly to blame for the Ostagar debacle, supposedly by lighting the beacon an hour too late.

This is not a speed run with special tricks for bypassing enemies, just hard and fast fighting. Elven mage with Fireball, Walking Bomb and glyphs, bolstered by the Vestments of the Seer, the Sash of Forbidden Secrets and the High Regard of House Dace. Towing three archers because the battle plan is essentially that of my current nightmare solo mage Ajira, but the extra DPS and automatic mop-up is really helpful in a timed run. Especially with the ogre at the end. Nightmare, no pots.

 

 

There are no special advanced techniques, just basic crowd-shaping and a minor trick relating to Fireball. That spell can occasionally knock enemies out of sight, at which point it becomes impossible to cast spells that require line of sight. However, if the spell cast is initiated before the impact of the Fireball then it will hit, even if the target has been knocked out of sight at the time the casting is finished. Same principle as arrows that can turn sharp corners, or line-of-sight spells that can fire through ten metres of rock.

This can be most readily seen around the one-minute mark in the middle outside area, when the Fireball against the four darkspawn is followed up with a Flame Blast against the two hurlocks. The Flame Blast hits even though both hurlocks are outside the cone of flame when it appears; the floaties for the hurlocks show the "17" for the blast tick in addition to the "11" from the Fireball afterburn.

Crowd-shaping: making the enemy converge in small areas that can be covered by AoE spells like Fireball, with its more difficult sub-discipline of clustering (e.g. for the small AoE of cone and bomb spells). Suitable positioning, perhaps combined with a bit of running around and some targetted invitations, can pay really big dividends.

The last two skirmishes in the outside area are minor examples, better ones are the first two skirmishes on the third floor. The third skirmish on the that floor - after releasing the hounds - is a poorish example, because it was beyond my capacity to impose my will on the battle there. It was the first time I'd used the mabari and the sustained pressure of the timed run was exacting its tribute as well; the snapping of the Flame Blast cone basically triggered an overload shutdown. Normally I'd have paused and taken a breath, but I was on the clock.

00:14 (outside area): the two tower guards are invulnerable until someone crosses an invisible line a few metres in front of Githany's casting position, but then they die from the first hit. Although they cannot be harmed by the Fireball impact, they will die from the afterburn later. Careful targetting can give the nearer of the two a fighting chance.

04:38 (second floor): I regard the three archers as the greater threat here (their arrows can really hurt over time), which is why I hasten their demise with an Arcane Bolt on the ticking bomb. However, Fireball was already cooled down after the bomb spell, so it really should have been cast right away, before the bolt. One of the hurlocks is of the 45 XP variety, with a penchant for shield-bashing.

09:20 (ogre fight): at the last second I decided not to use a potion, to make this a full no-pots run. That means the whole Paralysis Explosion was wasted, as it couldn't be followed up with a barrage of damage spells.

10:01 Got greedy and wanted to bag the ogre for sure, so I decided to cast with a slight overlap and take a step back. Failed to implement the vital second part of that plan, obviously.

I aimed for a no-pots run because potion use can cover a multitude of sins, especially health pots. The best compromise I've found ist to allow potions for elite bosses and groups with three or more elites (like the drake trio en route to Kolgrim), or special mass fights like Attack at Nightfall. In all other cases I make a mental note to find better tactics next time.

[Ironman Gaming]

Just saw the video...Interesting concept and looks fun...I think the 3 archers and the Vestmests of the Seer is the biggest help...Without the +10 armor, this would be a lot harder since the damage taken from the few darkspawn would be much more I think.  +10 armor is massive at this stage of the game since most characters, even full strength ones would probably be at 11 armor tops...I think my Rogue without going heavy armor only has like 11 armor or so.  I know my heavy rogue has 17 armor.  Add in a few amulets and you can push much much higher values of course.

 

The value of the 3 archers can't be overstated...having someone to "mop up" prevents the mage from getting attacked at all which is where trying to solo this can get hard.  Especially if you are out of mana and can't use or don't want to use potions or get a spell resisted.

 

I never minded the potions that much personally, it's powerful and maybe they can raise the cooldown timer, but when one starts spamming potion, you realize that you probably didn't plan that well for the fight.  My guess is most fights can be potion free if you kite and have archers hit while the mob chases someone else.

 

Still, very cool to see darkspawn get trounced so easily...I don't know who said originally that mages were slow to damage, but that's always been very very far from the truth.  When the game came out, it was very clear that mages were easy mode after 1 day.  I actually stopped first main campaign game since it was getting silly easy and wasn't as fun (I've actually never finished the game yet)...

 

 

Anyhow, race to the top of the Tower would be a nice challenge.  See the fastest someone can finish the tower killing all mobs without outright cheating...

 

I may dust off some of my old mages and give it a go too!

 

Problem for me is I hate controlling other NPCs so I'd probably have to try to solo it.

 

 

Here's my 2nd attempt:

 

I cut over 5 minutes off my old time ...When I did the first run, I wasn't sure what spells I needed to even pass it and be successful so I experimented with stuff like Inferno and forcefield (with walking bomb)...While cool and fun, waiting for Inferno to end wasted too much time...

 

For this run, I took death syphon to spam potions a little less...Forcefield isn't needed since that wastes time too.

 

I can probably get it sub 15 minutes with more playthroughs and testing such as I waste a bit of time outside the tower against the alpha I've noticed...

[DarthGizka]

There were a couple of really nice moves. I especially like the idea to collect the initial group of darkspawn on the platform; it's brilliant.

 

On the whole your performance was very uneven, though, which is why it took you so long. For comparison, my first fireballer (second mage) took 22 minutes cold without pots, including loot and all.

 

You can easily lose ten minutes or so, especially if you tune your spell selection a bit, get some fighting experience with it, and do an exploratory run of the tower. Then it gets hard. It also gets hard when (not if) an enemy decides to resist a key spell or its effect, because that usually means more time and more mana needed. In a string of a dozen encounters with 4+ enemies each, there are lots of occasions for Lord Murphy to sabotage your endeavour.

 

That's why I stuck to reasonably resilient tactics and towed a team of archers. They slow you down a bit by restricting tactical choices and crowd-shaping but they are an excellent insurance against the inevitable spell/effect resistance, have a smoothing effect overall, and they pretty much guarantee that the ogre doesn't take more than a minute or so.

 

Have a closer look at your staves. The darkspawn staff boosts spirit damage by 5% (about +2 pts for Arcane Bolt, +5 pts for Walking Bomb) but an Acolyte's Staff does about five points (50%) more damage per shot here. Spirit damage amplification does not affect the blast of an exploding bomb because that is physical damage.

 

Effective resistances for grunts: 5% spell, -10% fire, 35% nature. Ogre: 22.5% spell, -0% fire, 35% cold, 30% spirit, 40% nature, 32 mental, 57 physical. These scores already adjusted for difficulty, rank and level modifiers (assuming the ogre to be one level above the Warden). Against 44 spellpower that's 13% physical resistance chance. Coupled with spell resistance this means that paralysis - spell or glyph - will be resisted about one time in three.

 

Genlocks are supposed to have an extra 5% spell resistance, but there are only eight genlocks in the whole game that are tagged correctly. Since there are so few I never bothered finding out where they actually are...

[Ironman Gaming]

There were a couple of really nice moves. I especially like the idea to collect the initial group of darkspawn on the platform; it's brilliant.

 

On the whole your performance was very uneven, though, which is why it took you so long. For comparison, my first fireballer (second mage) took 22 minutes cold without pots, including loot and all.

 

You can easily lose ten minutes or so, especially if you tune your spell selection a bit, get some fighting experience with it, and do an exploratory run of the tower. Then it gets hard. It also gets hard when (not if) an enemy decides to resist a key spell or its effect, because that usually means more time and more mana needed. In a string of a dozen encounters with 4+ enemies each, there are lots of occasions for Lord Murphy to sabotage your endeavour.

 

That's why I stuck to reasonably resilient tactics and towed a team of archers. They slow you down a bit by restricting tactical choices and crowd-shaping but they are an excellent insurance against the inevitable spell/effect resistance, have a smoothing effect overall, and they pretty much guarantee that the ogre doesn't take more than a minute or so.

 

Have a closer look at your staves. The darkspawn staff boosts spirit damage by 5% (about +2 pts for Arcane Bolt, +5 pts for Walking Bomb) but an Acolyte's Staff does about five points (50%) more damage per shot here. Spirit damage amplification does not affect the blast of an exploding bomb because that is physical damage.

 

Effective resistances for grunts: 5% spell, -10% fire, 35% nature. Ogre: 22.5% spell, -0% fire, 35% cold, 30% spirit, 40% nature, 32 mental, 57 physical. These scores already adjusted for difficulty, rank and level modifiers (assuming the ogre to be one level above the Warden). Against 44 spellpower that's 13% physical resistance chance. Coupled with spell resistance this means that paralysis - spell or glyph - will be resisted about one time in three.

 

Genlocks are supposed to have an extra 5% spell resistance, but there are only eight genlocks in the whole game that are tagged correctly. Since there are so few I never bothered finding out where they actually are...

 

 

Thanks for the tips!  I was actually using the Blackened Heartwood Staff from the origin story, but since it's nature I think (spell power was only 1 less than acolyte), it does less damage overall..This old character actually had the Acolyte equipped when I loaded him in so it's probably better against Darkspawn in general.

 

Yeah, I haven't really play tested this too much since I don't try to rush when I play normally and you can see I fumble with keys a bit here...I uploaded another run and shaved off 5 minutes from my time.  Maybe more people will take up the challenge and give it a whirl as well...I'll probably head back to my rogue and take that up again.

 

Nice idea overall for something 'new' to try.

[Blazomancer]

@Ironman Gaming - The 40 second Ogre battle was super. Kind of felt bad for the poor bugger, didn't even get the chance to get going. Heh

@DarthGizka - The Ishal run was real quick and smooth. I love how the archers compete for the scraps. I'm almost tempted to test if I can match that timing with my Cousland Rogue, although then I would have a mage, Alistair and the Mabari Hound in my team, in place of three archers.

[DarthGizka]

Never mind time, especially as AoE spells give mages a huge advantage in erasing hordes of grunts.

I'd love to see some nice, professional action by anyone who's really into their favourite fighting style, whatever that may be. If you make something that your are pleased with, I'm sure we'll be wowed and double-wowed.

 

I may have to resurrect my Cousland chainsaw Elethea after watching your vid, to replay that aborted campaign. But that's a risk I'm willing to take.

[Ironman Gaming]

Yah, mages are much much quicker doing this...I did a quick try with my dual wield rogue and got to the 3rd floor, 1st group of Darkspawn before dieing and it was already 29 minutes in already...Could probably do in like 40 minutes with the ogre...Problem is if I use traps, that adds even more time.

 

Back to my original playthrough now and hope to get through to Lothering finally...so I can try some "new" battles again!

[DarthGizka]

Problem is if I use traps, that adds even more time.

 

Dropping a small claw trap on the ogre's head takes no time at all, hits it for a 100 damage, and may even immobilise it for a while. Works pretty much like a grenade, if used that way. Only it's cheaper and does more damage. My MinXP toon - a dalish rogue archer - loved those things almost as much as the ballistae on the second floor and the mabari on the third.

[Blazomancer]

Here is one that I recorded recently of slaying a level 20 High Dragon with a level 22 rogue warden and a level 21 party. Possibly could have been a wee bit faster if I could use coatings and runes. But so many on hit effects makes the system go bonkers while recording.

 

 

Owning the Mountain Top High Dragon (~8 seconds)

 

[DarthGizka]

Wow! That's exactly what I was talking about.

 

Poor beast didn't have snowflake's chance in hell... Stuff like that can get you in serious trouble with the RSPCA, you know.

 

I assume Wynne's tactics where split on "Enemy:Immobilised" or some such to keep the dragon still?

 

P.S.: Your toons are obviously the undisputed kings of blitz assassination of high profile targets, but how well do they handle a mundane assault mission? Are they for hire? They're just as fast as runscript killallhostiles but much more stylish...

[Ironman Gaming]

Heh, now you guys are just being a bully!

 

Funny to see Alistair as a dual wield and I'm guessing he has a dagger in the main hand and sword in the off-hand for faster dual striking?

 

Dual striking rocks and I am planning to use the tainted blade and more damage runes in my off hand in my rogue playthrough.

[Blazomancer]

Yup Wynne's job was to cast Petrify and Vulnerability Hex at the start, which brings her mana down to certain level when she chugs a potion. The tactics are simply 'Enemy: Rank........'

And Ironman, yes, Alistair is using Starfang in his off hand. Dual Striking could have had insane potential if it weren't for the one set of animation that don't hit at all. Even so it rocks big time.

Although I don't like to think of my wardens as bullies, I'm planning on doing something similar to the Harvester next. Lulz K.

[DarthGizka]

Ah, I see. I asked because I tried something similar a while ago, and the wild variety of things under enemy status had me stumped a bit. To facilitate experimentation I did something like this:

 

Enemy: Highest health - Petrify

Enemy: Immobilised - goto 9

Enemy: Can't attack - goto 9

...

Enemy: Target rank is Boss or higher - Petrify

Enemy: Target rank is Boss or higher - Glyph of Paralysis

...

9: Enemy: Target rank is Boss or higher - Vulnerability Hex

Enemy: Target rank is Boss or higher - Affliction Hex

...

Enemy: Target rank is Boss or higher - Arcane Bolt

 

The idea was to have Wynne immobilise the boss as first priority and to have him hexed up second, but to let her cast immobilisers only if necessary. I don't remember which status conditions made it into the final cut, but the structure made it possible to experiment easily. During initial testing I used an attack command before line 9 so that the appearance of the hexes etc. told me that one of the gotos had fired. The first line is to focus Wynne's attention on the right target at the start of the battle.

[Blazomancer]

^Yes that would be a better way to go about it. But in this particular instance, I wanted to have very little or no gap between the status effects. It takes very less amount of time for the dragon to complete Roar or Tail Flap. So I tried to play it safe here. Paralyze and Glyph of Paralysis actually got overlapped, even so the high dragon got half way through completing it's roar.

[DarthGizka]

Yes, the Roar is evil. Yesterday I had two cases of work-related death because of it, soloing the Ageless dragon. Bugger was able to take Ajira for more than 90% HP with a single normal attack, never mind Rake or Overwhelm. In a situation like that, Roar is 100% deadly. I thought that Ajira's CC arsenal was reasonable enough: glyphs, Horror, Sleep, Force Field, Cone of Cold, plus Winter's Grasp in a pinch. Not so when spell resistance can and will foul things up six ways to Sunday.

I swear that little dragon was more difficult than Jarvia and the spider queen combined. The latter gracefully refrained from resisting any spell of the initial barrage (CoC, PE, 2 hexes, Sleep, Horror), which allowed me to kill her without further ado. She didn't even try to rappel away. Her army of little spiderlings is a different story, though. Tried to aggro the bunch of them, got a barrage of corner-turning webs and poison spits in return. Two reloads, scraped through on the third try with just 3 HP left (that's the work of just two of the buggers).

Spell resistance is the soloing mage's bane, together with ambush scenarios that deposit the Warden within reach of half a dozen swords and knives. And the top steps of any flight of stairs (because they tend to impede flight, as it were).

[Blazomancer]

Harvester Done Quick

 

Rushing the Harvester with a level 35 team of DW rogue warden, DW respec'd Dace brothers, and the Runic Golem in ~24 seconds.

 

[DarthGizka]

Awesome! That is sure to shatter the self-esteem of many a mage, and send them straight to the couch of their analyst...

 

Who will probably diagnose 'Dagger Envy'. 

[Blazomancer]

Hi everyone, posting after some time in this thread. Here is a video that I recorded while attempting to slay The Mother quickly before she is able to call upon The Children for help. The battle was done using a DW rogue warden, DW Justice, archer Oghren and Velanna.