Having had my say in a few of the Loghain threads on the forum it made me wonder if Loghain were not thinking of making his own grey wardens with loyalties to the crown and himself.
Riordan says that to induct more grey wardens they need a pinch of blood from an Archdemon and Ferelden's stores are missing. Did Loghain/Howe plan to interrogate Riordan (torture is such an ugly word) to obtain the details of the Joining?
Paranoia, paranoia, everybody's coming to get me 
I don't think it would work, even if he was. One, Riordan doesn't strike me as one who would break under torture. Two, he was much more interested in keeping Orlais out of Fereldan. Three, it is highly unlikely that Loghain or Howe knew what the archdemon blood was for. Even less likely that they actually knew that it was archdemon blood in the first place.
As for the documents and Riordan's capture, well, Riordan was captured simply because he was a Grey Warden and Howe was probably like, 'Ooh, these look important. Let's find out what we got here!" when he saw the documents (likely because they were encrypted).
Besides, if Loghain wanted to create his own Grey Wardens, why would he leave them to die if they are the only ones who know how to prepare the Joining? At the very least, he could have captured one of the Wardens before the final battle at Ostagar and took them away to Denerim for interrogation.
All he had to do was ask his daughter-Anora seems to be pretty well versed on the details of the Joining. At the very least, she knows that wardens die in the Joining.
to what end?
wardens are not superior to the next soldier. they die just as easy. there is no reason behind the idea of creating of army of grey wardens.
more to that Loghain had no idea why wardens are needed,
so, it's not a paranoia, it's just silly thought that came out of nowhere.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
No. He just believed in the powers of common men and women. That they're equal to any "Warden" legend.
His whole personal guard reflects that. They're like him.. brought from nothing, and rewarded based on skill alone. Ser Cauthrian is their leader. She's just like Loghain.. she used to be a farmgirl.
I think it's admirable, but he (and even our own Warden) had no idea it takes an ancient form of magic/blood magic to defeat the darkspawn. Not simply killing them.
I think it's admirable, but he (and even our own Warden) had no idea it takes an ancient form of magic/blood magic to defeat the darkspawn. Not simply killing them.
Maybe your Warden didn't.....but there's an option to at least figure it out on your own.
/nitpickingbecauseIcan'tfindanythingelsetodisagreewith
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Maybe your Warden didn't.....but there's an option to at least figure it out on your own.
/nitpickingbecauseIcan'tfindanythingelsetodisagreewith
Can you clarify? The Joining or Dark Ritual are both magic. There's no way to deal with the archdemon just with combat. That's all I meant.
Can you clarify? The Joining or Dark Ritual are both magic. There's no way to deal with the archdemon just with combat. That's all I meant.
When you talk to Riordan in Redcliff, you can say that you need the Taint to kill the archdemon.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
When you talk to Riordan in Redcliff, you can say that you need the Taint to kill the archdemon.
I think we're saying the same thing. The taint and joining is rooted in magic. This is what Loghain didn't understand. He dismissed the Wardens because he thought their "legend" was just about being badass warriors or something. His response to that was he and Ferelden can be just as capable.
I agree - why have an elaborate plan when a simple one will do.
But I love the forums - throw in an idea and others will take it and run with it. Interesting to learn what others think. 
Having had my say in a few of the Loghain threads on the forum it made me wonder if Loghain were not thinking of making his own grey wardens with loyalties to the crown and himself.
Riordan says that to induct more grey wardens they need a pinch of blood from an Archdemon and Ferelden's stores are missing. Did Loghain/Howe plan to interrogate Riordan (torture is such an ugly word) to obtain the details of the Joining?
Paranoia, paranoia, everybody's coming to get me
That's always been my belief. Howe had classified Warden documents, the Warden storehouses were raided and the Joining supplies confiscated, and Anora is knowledgeable about the fate the Joining has (which was a secret, as Jory demonstrated)... so it leads me to believe Loghain wanted to create his OWN Wardens eventually who would in fact be beholden to the nation of Ferelden and be useful in the coming battles.
This knowledge however, while it would enhance the argument for the Wardens' necessity, doesn't validate it right away. After all, it's still unknown to everyone that only a Warden can end the Blight, because of drama.
Naturally, by the time he discovers all of this, the Warden and Alistair are already his political enemies, plus he has understandable reasons for viewing them as Orlesian agents. So diplomacy with them isn't going to be an option, much less since the two of them aren't willing to really engage in such with Loghain.
The only thing that throws a kink in this is how Genitivi also knows of the effects of the Joining, by way of the Soldier's Peak codexes. As a result, the Wardens' "THIS IS A SECRET IT MUST STAY A SECRET" comes off as silly writing.
So yay for Bioware screwing up their own lore!
Besides, if Loghain wanted to create his own Grey Wardens, why would he leave them to die if they are the only ones who know how to prepare the Joining? At the very least, he could have captured one of the Wardens before the final battle at Ostagar and took them away to Denerim for interrogation.
The Wardens didn't prepare the Joining. Duncan says he's had the Circle Mages prepare it.
And as to the bolded, one... he didn't "leave them to die". They just died in battle. Two, he would've discovered all of this after they were dead. Remember, after Ostagar he heads up to Denerim to recruit the nobility to his banner to fight the Darkspawn. With the civil war the Bannorn starts, fueled by the antagonism between Teagan and Loghain, the Teyrn spends his time either out in the field or occasionally back at Denerim which serves as his base of operations.
Nevertheless, upon returning to Denerim after Ostagar he orders his men to seize what's in the Warden storehouse.
wardens are not superior to the next soldier.
Good sir or madame, I'd ask that you look towards the Wardens of Soldier's Peak. One hundred Wardens faced an entire army and held out for months before their supplies let out, and even then were putting up a helluva fight when the soldiers stormed the keep.
Wardens are indeed superior to your average soldier.
Loghain did leave them to die. That was the plan if he was going to pull out, he was going to leave "the Orlesian agents" (read: Grey Wardens). I feel he regretted leaving behind the loyal Fereldans (the king's army) fighting, and never intended to leave Cailan, being on the front line was Cailan's monkey wrench to his plans, but since he had no inkling why Wardens are needed (and in his ignorance felt they were expendable) he always intended to toss them under a bus first chance he got.
It is possible he intended to make his own wardens, loyal to Ferelden after the fact, but since he had no idea why they were needed, I don't think he felt the urgency he should have to do so. And he had no idea how one went about making them. Also, as TEWR points out he was probably kept busier than a one armed man with the hives and just couldn't put aside a bit of time to do a recruitment.
And what's with the 'huge secret here' of the Joining prior to the PC's becoming a Warden? Once the shock value is gone, everyone and his dog all seem to know about it. I don't recall having a press conference in game and giving a release of info... 
*nods* And in 'Witch Hunt,' Finn appears to know something about the effects. When you ask to use Ariane's blood to reveal the Lights of Arlathan, she'll ask why he doesn't use a Dalish Warden's blood. "Warden's blood is... different," Finn hedges.The Wardens didn't prepare the Joining. Duncan says he's had the Circle Mages prepare it.
Good sir or madame, I'd ask that you look towards the Wardens of Soldier's Peak. One hundred Wardens faced an entire army and held out for months before their supplies let out, and even then were putting up a helluva fight when the soldiers stormed the keep.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
*nods* And in 'Witch Hunt,' Finn appears to know something about the effects. When you ask to use Ariane's blood to reveal the Lights of Arlathan, she'll ask why he doesn't use a Dalish Warden's blood. "Warden's blood is... different," Finn hedges.
Yeah, that line made me sad.. Yet another reason to hate the Wardens. At this point, she's got more in relation to Velanna's sister and the Architect. Darkspawn and ghouls. Or something. She's no longer one of the Dalish.
I'm thinking that Loghain wouldn't bother recruiting. He has soldiers. Grab a few of the best and "here, take a sip". It doesn't sound so far-fetched when you learn that press gangs are out and about rustling up a new army. And maybe for all his bluster, he actually believes he needs grey wardens for the blight to be ended but can't/won't come to terms with the wardens already on the ground.
Also, wether or not Riordan cracked under torture and gave up secrets (I don't think he did) Loghain and Howe would have wanted that information badly. If he had cracked I'm sure Howe would have kept up the torture for fun.
Starting this up again - I remembered his deal with Uldred which alongside everything else mentioned would give him the mages to make the joining potion.
I doubt it. None of his behavior or words indicate that he knew the importance of Grey Wardens. Riordan even has to explain their role in the Archdemon's destruction on the eve of battle... If Loghain had any idea about this, he would have mentioned it at some point. If he knew that Grey Wardens were needed to kill the Archdemon, he probably would have tried to recruit us before the Landsmeet... after all, if we died, then Ferelden was going to be overrun. He couldn't have known this and continued placing the nation's survival in jeopardy. That would have been insane.
I don't think Loghain wanted to make his own Wardens, I think he wanted to know what they were "really" (in his paranoid mind) up to, and to possibly gather intelligence and blackmail material to get them to stay out of Ferelden.
wardens are not superior to the next soldier. they die just as easy. there is no reason behind the idea of creating of army of grey wardens.
That's not quite true. The Wardens are explicitly stated in the lore to be well above average, and the books and what we see in the flashbacks in Warden's Keep (adjusted for the context of the fact that they're literally starving as they fight) bear that out. Only it's not quite clear to what extent that's the Taint, to what extent you need to be that badass to survive the Joining, and to what extent they just had a good crop in that era.
That badassery might be enough that Loghain was willing to make his own, just for the added power, if he thought he had enough good prospects. If he knew at least the basics of the Joining, which I don't know that we know. He could easily have spied on the Joining, but I don't think we can be all that sure he did. And even if he did, it might be that he didn't actually think it made them more powerful.
I doubt it. None of his behavior or words indicate that he knew the importance of Grey Wardens. Riordan even has to explain their role in the Archdemon's destruction on the eve of battle... If Loghain had any idea about this, he would have mentioned it at some point. If he knew that Grey Wardens were needed to kill the Archdemon, he probably would have tried to recruit us before the Landsmeet... after all, if we died, then Ferelden was going to be overrun. He couldn't have known this and continued placing the nation's survival in jeopardy. That would have been insane.
And considering how he keeps reiterating over and over "There is nothing I wouldn't do for my homeland" completely out of character.
Now that's an entertaining thought. A privatized Grey Warden order.
I'm assuming Loghain had those missing stores of archdemon blood,
else how could Loghain have been Joined?
Or did I miss something?
Guest_Faerunner_*
Having had my say in a few of the Loghain threads on the forum it made me wonder if Loghain were not thinking of making his own grey wardens with loyalties to the crown and himself.
Considering how often Loghain dismissed the Grey Warden's importance, saying "They're good, but not necessary to defeat the darkspawn," dismissed the darkspawn threat as "not a true Blight," and finally admitted to the Blight but still said, "We don't need Grey Warden help" and "Ferelden will stand on its own two feet" and "Stand with me, and [Ferelden] shall defeat even the Blight itself!"... I doubt he was planning on making his own Grey Warden Order.
It seemed to me he just wanted all Grey Wardens purged of Ferelden because he'd convinced himself that they don't need Grey Wardens at all.
Riordan says that to induct more grey wardens they need a pinch of blood from an Archdemon and Ferelden's stores are missing. Did Loghain/Howe plan to interrogate Riordan (torture is such an ugly word) to obtain the details of the Joining?
Riordan also only says this to the Grey Warden recruits, in private, the night before the battle with the Archdemon, I hope you remember. I doubt Loghain knew or cared how to perform the joining.
Considering what a paranoid anti-Orlesian kick he was on, I think it's far more likely that Loghain and Howe were torturing Riordan on the plans and intentions of his Orlesian brethren. I doubt they wanted to know how to make more Grey Wardens as much as they wanted to know what the Grey Wardens were planning on doing to help Orlais retake Ferelden. Riordan was a political prisoner.
Considering how often Loghain dismissed the Grey Warden's importance, saying "They're good, but not necessary to defeat the darkspawn," dismissed the darkspawn threat as "not a true Blight," and finally admitted to the Blight but still said, "We don't need Grey Warden help" and "Ferelden will stand on its own two feet" and "Stand with me, and [Ferelden] shall defeat even the Blight itself!"... I doubt he was planning on making his own Grey Warden Order.
It seemed to me he just wanted all Grey Wardens purged of Ferelden because he'd convinced himself that they don't need Grey Wardens at all.
None of that specifically precludes wanting his own Wardens, though. I'll grant you that he probably didn't want his own, but not wanting foreign Wardens (or even any who had ever been connected to Weisshaupt, since the HN and the CE aren't foreign and I don't think the EM is either) doesn't necessarily mean he didn't want to make his own by altering men whose loyalty he was entirely sure of.
I think what he wanted was no orlesian grey wardens. He kept saying that Alistair and the PC were foreigners. Riordan could so easliy have inducted more wardens if only the stores weren't missing. Short-sighted of those that took the blood.
And when Riordan fills in the blanks re killing archie - he does it at Redcliffe. This is not the night before the battle because they then have to run to Denerim. This is also a point I made for Morrigan's ritual - also not done of the night before battle.
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