12 réponses à ce sujet

[AwfullyBeast]

I was wondering what people would think of an in more depth or complex 'spirit' damage tree. As i used to play WoW and other mmo's I kinda like to have a certain go to skill tree and with the past 2 games the main tree for damage has been primal.

I like fire and ice and all that but was wanting something in the spirit or arcane tree with some real aoe damage, crowd control and maybe a good nuke. 

I don't mean make it the main tree or anything just change it up a bit from previous games where i had to rely on blood magic or primal trees for my main aoe damage. I like arcane and don't think I'm the only one. 

Anyone agree?

[Vallasch]

Personally I just hope a large and diverse book gets added back in like origins. I liked the idea behind DA2's ability to add extra effects to existing spells to reduce redundancies, such as walking bomb. But the trees in DA2 felt small and restrictive. So much so that optimum choices tended to stand out and all the party's mages more or less had the same stuff beyond their specialisations.

 

Whereas in origins I could have 3 mages in my party and they would often all have different powers with their own combos. For me Wynne would be using healing and glyphs. Morrigan was using Fire, Ice and sleep/fear/nightmare spells. And my warden was using hexes, drains, lightning and telekinetic. Thus even if you had mages using the same tree it was still possible for them to have different abilities.

[Amfortas]

Actually in DAII the main nuke AOE spell is in the spirit tree, the walking bomb, and the highest single target damage is in the spirit tree as well, arcane bolt to dissoriented targets.

[In Exile]

Personally I just hope a large and diverse book gets added back in like origins. I liked the idea behind DA2's ability to add extra effects to existing spells to reduce redundancies, such as walking bomb. But the trees in DA2 felt small and restrictive. So much so that optimum choices tended to stand out and all the party's mages more or less had the same stuff beyond their specialisations.

 

Whereas in origins I could have 3 mages in my party and they would often all have different powers with their own combos. For me Wynne would be using healing and glyphs. Morrigan was using Fire, Ice and sleep/fear/nightmare spells. And my warden was using hexes, drains, lightning and telekinetic. Thus even if you had mages using the same tree it was still possible for them to have different abilities.

 

DA2 had far more variability in abilities, because far more had use. DA:O had very, very few optimal choices, a few sub-optimal weaker crowd control choices that didn't do direct damage, and then pure garbage. 

[Vallasch]

Not the point I was making.

 

The point is that with a much more expansive and diverse range of options, one mage could be substantially different to another. It's the wealth of options I'd like to see make a return.

[AlanC9]

Personally I just hope a large and diverse book gets added back in like origins. I liked the idea behind DA2's ability to add extra effects to existing spells to reduce redundancies, such as walking bomb. But the trees in DA2 felt small and restrictive. So much so that optimum choices tended to stand out and all the party's mages more or less had the same stuff beyond their specialisations.
 
Whereas in origins I could have 3 mages in my party and they would often all have different powers with their own combos. For me Wynne would be using healing and glyphs. Morrigan was using Fire, Ice and sleep/fear/nightmare spells. And my warden was using hexes, drains, lightning and telekinetic. Thus even if you had mages using the same tree it was still possible for them to have different abilities.

You had all your DA2 mages on essentislly the same build? What was it? I've found several viable ones.

[In Exile]

Not the point I was making.

 

The point is that with a much more expansive and diverse range of options, one mage could be substantially different to another. It's the wealth of options I'd like to see make a return.

 

The point is that DA2 offered a "diverse" range of options, where "one mage could be substantially different to another". DA:O didn't even have more talents to choose from. The reason DA2 felt more restrictive is that you had to sink more points into an ability to get the maximum out of it, but that's a very different design choice (and really one comes in play on nightmare). 

 

If we add up the number of abilities in the trees we get to a similar count as DA2. 

 

Finally, you're wrong when you say that mages using the same tree had different abilities. DA:O didn't have trees. It had four lines in each school. You mean mages using the same schools could have different abilities, and that was the same in DA2. 

[JCFR]

Personally I just hope a large and diverse book gets added back in like origins. I liked the idea behind DA2's ability to add extra effects to existing spells to reduce redundancies, such as walking bomb. But the trees in DA2 felt small and restrictive. So much so that optimum choices tended to stand out and all the party's mages more or less had the same stuff beyond their specialisations.

 

Whereas in origins I could have 3 mages in my party and they would often all have different powers with their own combos. For me Wynne would be using healing and glyphs. Morrigan was using Fire, Ice and sleep/fear/nightmare spells. And my warden was using hexes, drains, lightning and telekinetic. Thus even if you had mages using the same tree it was still possible for them to have different abilities.

Well i think DAO was skill-overkill - especially for Warriors. I always ended up with about lvl 25 and having the whole  toolbar filled with Icons of skills, but mostly i only used a third constantly.

So in DA2 i was glad about having les sklills but make them upgradeable - even though the upgrade-system lacks innovation... like having to chose between 2 upgrades (which both change the wy the skill works) and you can only pick one. And by doing this 2 or 3 times the spell/skill changes completly.

 

                                                                  area effect                                               - firestorm (ball turning into a pillar of fire throwing smaller firebolts around)

                                                               /                                                                  \ wrecking ball (like a lava-ball steamrolling anything in its way and burn it)

                larger fireball

              /                                                \                                                                  / implosion (enemies getting sucked towards the center of the spell)

             /                                                   adding explosion to fire damage               - knock off (explosion causing close enemies getting knocked to the ground)  

Fireball

            \                                                     homing projectiles(high accuracy)           - incinerate (continuous flame damage)              

              \                                                /                                                                  \ bouncing off (causing collateral damage)

              barrage of smaller fireballs

                                                               \

                                                           meteor shower(low accuracy bit wide range)   -  continuous rain(extend duration)

                                                                                                                                   \ hard impact (weaken fire-damage but add earth-damage through groundspikes)

 

And  I think it was sad, that the crosseffect-system of spells didn't return (likely the most innovative thing about origins). 

[Avaflame]

 

Finally, you're wrong when you say that mages using the same tree had different abilities. DA:O didn't have trees. It had four lines in each school. You mean mages using the same schools could have different abilities, and that was the same in DA2. 

True in theory, but not really in practice if I recall. In the elemental field for example, I could not get the most out of fire spells without also getting ice spells. I agree most of the spells in Origins weren't really of much use and essentially just stepping stones to the ones you wanted, but I don't think DA2 got the system right, either. I liked Origins way of restricting spells and talents based on your attributes, and I liked that you couldn't upgrade/acquire talents in DA2 without having first spent a particular amount of talent points (so you can't just cast a firestorm right off the bat), but I'd prefer it if they were not linked to other spells and that the amount of talent points did not need to go into the same school. Or at least not both.

As an example, say I want my mage to be able to cast Crushing Prison. I don't think I should be able to learn it straight away; I'm not strong enough to make use of a spell like that. However, I don't think I should have to take on Mind Blast, a spell I am never going to use just to form a pathway to CP, when I could be strengthening my mage by learning a different spell I'm interested in using or upgrading a pre-existing one. And when I do get to Crushing Prison, I need to dump another point in the school before I can actually learn it. So wanting just the one spell in the school could potentially waste 3 or 4 talent points in a game where you might only get twenty or so.

I'm sure their system is already cemented for spells and talents in Inquisition and I expect it to be quite similar to DA2. But my optimal spell progression would involve attribute checks and prerequisites for general talent points (so essentially your level I guess) as opposed to specific talent points (I need mind blast, force field and then two more points from that school in general first? Lame).

[Pistolized]

I think the reasoning behind making you choose in a line with prerequisites, is that the spells are byproducts of your character learning about that certain school of magic.  So as your character learns about the Spirit school, he will encounter those prerequiste talents.  So in-game, it's backwards, if you don't learn those talents, then you haven't been advancing at all in that area.

 

So just because you have '83 Magic' doesn't equate to a character spending the time and effort into research and practice.

 

For example, a gymnast is very dexterous.  If a gymnast becomes so dexterous, and has put in the time to be able to perform magnificently on the 'balance beam,'  but that does not give them the talent to also perform at high levels in other gymnast disciplines.  Or if you put a racecar driver in a double-clutch 18-wheeler...etc, etc.

[Pistolized]

On the main point though, I like to think that the Spirit school is just fundamentally different than the others.  Close enough to the others to be comparable, but not close enough to be held to the same standards.  If you find a fire spell that lets you suck Mana out of corpses, you let me know.

 

(can you not edit previous posts in this forum?)

[In Exile]

True in theory, but not really in practice if I recall. In the elemental field for example, I could not get the most out of fire spells without also getting ice spells. I agree most of the spells in Origins weren't really of much use and essentially just stepping stones to the ones you wanted, but I don't think DA2 got the system right, either. I liked Origins way of restricting spells and talents based on your attributes, and I liked that you couldn't upgrade/acquire talents in DA2 without having first spent a particular amount of talent points (so you can't just cast a firestorm right off the bat), but I'd prefer it if they were not linked to other spells and that the amount of talent points did not need to go into the same school. Or at least not both.

 

I'm not sure which game you're talking about in your first sentence. If you mean DA2, then I certainly agree that the way that there were "point" requirements in the trees limited your options and forced you to pick other talents than those you wanted, but I disagree completely with your example. It wasn't fire spells that required ice to get to the upgrades - it was the other way around. But even that doesn't mean that DA:O had more options. Because most of the DA:O options were completely duds. Most of those abilities existed purely to troll the player to waste talent points. 

 

 

As an example, say I want my mage to be able to cast Crushing Prison. I don't think I should be able to learn it straight away; I'm not strong enough to make use of a spell like that. However, I don't think I should have to take on Mind Blast, a spell I am never going to use just to form a pathway to CP, when I could be strengthening my mage by learning a different spell I'm interested in using or upgrading a pre-existing one. And when I do get to Crushing Prison, I need to dump another point in the school before I can actually learn it. So wanting just the one spell in the school could potentially waste 3 or 4 talent points in a game where you might only get twenty or so.

I'm sure their system is already cemented for spells and talents in Inquisition and I expect it to be quite similar to DA2. But my optimal spell progression would involve attribute checks and prerequisites for general talent points (so essentially your level I guess) as opposed to specific talent points (I need mind blast, force field and then two more points from that school in general first? Lame).

DA:O is exactly the same way. If I want to get to the OP Mana Clash, I have to pick three garbage/dud abilities that exist only to force me to invest 4 talents, effectively, for Mana Clash.  The same with both cone of cold and fireball. I have to pick duds in flame and cold weapons to get to either ability. 

 

DA:O is even worse than DA2, because not only are you forced to pick duds to get to useful abilities, there are more duds. The vast majority of DA2 mage abilities didn't actually suck. And those that did suck only sucked because of nightmare (like mind blast, which had FF effects so it stunned your own party). 

 

To get Crushing Prison, I had to take two garbage abilities along with Force Field. It was the same even with the same talent in DA:O. 

[Avaflame]

I'm not sure which game you're talking about in your first sentence. If you mean DA2, then I certainly agree that the way that there were "point" requirements in the trees limited your options and forced you to pick other talents than those you wanted, but I disagree completely with your example. It wasn't fire spells that required ice to get to the upgrades - it was the other way around. 

I was talking about DA2 but it's been a while since I played it, the point I was trying to make was just that often times you had to commit to the school as opposed to Origins where you just had to commit to the spell line.

 

 

DA:O is exactly the same way. If I want to get to the OP Mana Clash, I have to pick three garbage/dud abilities that exist only to force me to invest 4 talents, effectively, for Mana Clash.  The same with both cone of cold and fireball. I have to pick duds in flame and cold weapons to get to either ability. 

 

DA:O is even worse than DA2, because not only are you forced to pick duds to get to useful abilities, there are more duds. The vast majority of DA2 mage abilities didn't actually suck. And those that did suck only sucked because of nightmare (like mind blast, which had FF effects so it stunned your own party). 

 

I don't think we should go back to Origins way of doing it either, and I think I might even agree that it was worse. I definitely agree that DA2s streamlined spells were way better than Origins vast array of useless spells, I just didn't like the progression. I'm hoping Inquisition does something completely different. I do hope they keep the upgrades though.

I hated in Origins that to get Fireball + Inferno, Cone of Cold and Field + Crushing Prison (staples in all mage playthroughs) I had to get Flame, Cold AND Telekinetic Weapons. I was very pleased that they just made one Elemental Weapons for DA2.