109 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Goverments have little to say in matters of templars it is stated 1000 times nor king nor nobles can do anything outside hiding mage and praying to templars not find him. The wardens as well templars don't interfere to politics unless it is about darkspawn/mages those are accepted to deal with danger that darkspawn/mages present. 

 

Templars have free will in what they are doing with mages in fact only exception RoA that requires chantry permission and even then chantry isn't goverment only religious organization.

 

What i want create is grey wardens version that hunt on mages (grey wardens don't have control over their head) and organisation will be focused on mages like grey warden on darkspawn not on politics unless like in darkspawn case they need intervene and same are doing current templars.

Governments have little say because they have an agreement with the Chantry to have them deal wit those matters. However the governments have say over the Chantry in the prospect of the Chantry is in their nation because they allow it. Churches can be outlawed since there is no 'freedom of religion' in Thedas. Heck, churches were still outlawed after that type of thing was in place. And unless your organization will follow the same rules, they will not be accepted like the Templars are. 

 

No, Seekers also have a say over Templars. In most cases, if a Templar is abusing his or her authority, the Seekers deal with it. The only reason they didn't in Kirkwall is for plot convenience. 

 

A Grey Warden version of mage hunters will never be allowed by the nations. Ever. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Governments have little say because they have an agreement with the Chantry to have them deal wit those matters. However the governments have say over the Chantry in the prospect of the Chantry is in their nation because they allow it. Churches can be outlawed since there is no 'freedom of religion' in Thedas. Heck, churches were still outlawed after that type of thing was in place. And unless your organization will follow the same rules, they will not be accepted like the Templars are. 

 

No, Seekers also have a say over Templars. In most cases, if a Templar is abusing his or her authority, the Seekers deal with it. The only reason they didn't in Kirkwall is for plot convenience. 

 

A Grey Warden version of mage hunters will never be allowed by the nations. Ever. 

 

As i said those in charge accept what will be accepted and what won't most of non mages already hate mages and it will be comically easy pull blame on mages for torned veil so convince peoples to solutions they already want...

 

ahaha seekers are only in theory as you say in practice they are just an elite templars...

 

Yeah right because nations love mages....

[Hanako Ikezawa]

As i said those in charge accept what will be accepted and what won't most of non mages already hate mages and it will be comically easy pull blame on mages for torned veil so convince peoples to solutions they already want...

 

ahaha seekers are only in theory as you say in practice they are just an elite templars...

 

Yeah right because nations love mages....

They accept it WITH CONDITIONS. What you want is them to accept it without conditions, which will never happen. People who have power don't like to lose it. They'd rather back the Templars than your order since as I said, that came with conditions. 

 

No, their role according to lore is to be he check and balance for Templars. 

 

Not so much they love mages but more they'll hate your group. 

[mikeymoonshine]

I said already for now i don't plan attack tevinter empire now they can fight with qunari they can weaken each other for now. Without mages non-mages will have to start satisfy their needs with technology not magic and without magic theodasian societes will stop be destroyed or damaged by mages and disasters caused by them so thedas will start relly on safe , stable and superior to magic technology.

Tevinter won't care about non-tevinter mages i doubt it would even about their mages as long they would stay in charge. Rivian mages were already slaughtered by seekers without problems.And qunari always will be problem without nuclear bomb that explode in our territory i think thedas will be better... 

 

 

 

How many those supporters we had few in numbers in fact most of that mage "supporters" were not with mages but against meredith pretty much reason why templars were hated.

 

Mages are seen as outcasts as well as elves mages aren't seen by humans as humans only as mages pretty much why they are segregated as mages not elves or humans in circles.

 

 

As i said many times noble can do crap with mage at best noble can hide mage and prey so templars wouldn't find him thats all in mage case not even king can interfere pretty much anora and alistair are best examples as well loghian.Simple mages are on templars focus it is templars who judge mage not country and if any noble brake it have to face consequences as loghain would... 

 

and why was Meredith hated? This is just a reiteration of what you said before, mages are seen as humans and there are very many people who see them as family. 

 

Nobles can do crap in the current situation, a situation were all mages are being killed by an organization that is not the government is completely different. Nobles are nobles for a reason, the King is the same he can't interfere in the current situation (although he actually can he just chooses not to because it's better not to). 

 

You can't just ignore the fact that the templars deciding to kill all the mages would change everything. They would not have the same political standing as they do now. The politics of Thedas between the chantry, templars and the various governments rely on compromise. There are certain things that each group cannot do but if one group breaks that compromise then everything changes. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

They accept it WITH CONDITIONS. What you want is them to accept it without conditions, which will never happen. People who have power don't like to lose it. They'd rather back the Templars than your order since as I said, that came with conditions. 

 

No, their role according to lore is to be he check and balance for Templars. 

 

Not so much they love mages but more they'll hate your group. 

LoL what conditions dude they deal with mages thats all templars are response on danger that mages present there were no conditions nations have peace and templars deal with mages thats all when nation don't have any right to interfere in templars job as long templars won't interfere in nation matters. Templar order didn't worked it will be easy convince as i said to solution that will provide peoples safety and peoples already want to...

 

Ahaha show me 1 case where seeker examined abuse on mages... from dawn of the seekers to asunder seekers role were pretty much hunt on mages or care about chantry/templar business codex entries can say one thing but reality says another .It may be original purpose behind seekers but in practice as i said they aren't much more than mage hunters/elite templars...

 

 

Nope they won't as i said it will be like grey warden and no one hate grey warden because they deal with threat same for templars.

 

and why was Meredith hated? This is just a reiteration of what you said before, mages are seen as humans and there are very many people who see them as family. 

 

Nobles can do crap in the current situation, a situation were all mages are being killed by an organization that is not the government is completely different. Nobles are nobles for a reason, the King is the same he can't interfere in the current situation (although he actually can he just chooses not to because it's better not to). 

 

You can't just ignore the fact that the templars deciding to kill all the mages would change everything. They would not have the same political standing as they do now. The politics of Thedas between the chantry, templars and the various governments rely on compromise. There are certain things that each group cannot do but if one group breaks that compromise then everything changes. 

 

Because she wanted took over the city? pretty much that was reason even if you support mages publicly they nobles won't support mages they will support overthrowing meredith.

 

Not rly as a said and many examples showed even Amells most powerful noble family in kirkwall was reduced to nothing after they had mage in family and every child was taken to the circle and they couldn't do crap about that... Mage in family is seen as dishonor...

 

Nope it wouldn't they can in fact decide kill everyone by RoA or deliver fate worse then dead every of that have reason behind that same as my solution after mage is taken to the circle family never see that mage again... compromise didn't worked it failed and majority want safety and mages dead.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

LoL what conditions dude they deal with mages thats all templars are response on danger that mages present there were no conditions nations have peace and templars deal with mages thats all when nation don't have any right to interfere in templars job as long templars won't interfere in nation matters. Templar order didn't worked it will be easy convince as i said to solution that will provide peoples safety and peoples already want to...

 

Ahaha show me 1 case where seeker examined abuse on mages... from dawn of the seekers to asunder seekers role were pretty much hunt on mages or care about chantry/templar business codex entries can say one thing but reality says another .It may be original purpose behind seekers but in practice as i said they aren't much more than mage hunters/elite templars...

 

 

Nope they won't as i said it will be like grey warden and no one hate grey warden because they deal with threat same for templars.

The main condition is the government's consent. Any order or group when within a nation are prone to the will of the government of said nation. If the order does something the government doesn't like, they are branded as criminals. Look at what happened at Warden's Peak. Or any of the many orders on Earth like the Knights Templar. The government has every right to interfere since the groups are in their yard. They only don't because they made conditions with said orders, pretty much "If you don't do anything we don't like, you can stay here". It will not be easy to convince the nations that your order is better for too many reasons to list. But the list boils down to "You need them, they don't need you." To use your own words, you're naive if you think differently. 

[mikeymoonshine]

 

Because she wanted took over the city? pretty much that was reason even if you support mages publicly they nobles won't support mages they will support overthrowing meredith.

 

Not rly as a said and many examples showed even Amells most powerful noble family in kirkwall was reduced to nothing after they had mage in family and every child was taken to the circle and they couldn't do crap about that... Mage in family is seen as dishonor...

 

Nope it wouldn't they can in fact decide kill everyone by RoA or deliver fate worse then dead every of that have reason behind that same as my solution after mage is taken to the circle family never see that mage again... compromise didn't worked it failed and majority want safety and mages dead.

 

Some of the nobles did support the mages though. :/ 

 

The templars had most of the political power in Kirkwall, that isn't the case in the rest of Thedas. The nobles in Kirkwall have no forces to stand up to the templars with and once again this is a completely different situation to the one you are proposing. 

 

Having a mage in the family is seen as a dishonor but it's not always felt as one, we have many examples that prove this and they are sent to the circle because that is meant to be the best place for them. 

 

Annulment is not something the Templars can just decide to do and neither is tranquility. Kirkwall is not a good example of this because Meredith had all the political power after the viscount and Elthina died and even when they were alive, neither did much to resist her. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

The main condition is the government's consent. Any order or group when within a nation are prone to the will of the government of said nation. If the order does something the government doesn't like, they are branded as criminals. Look at what happened at Warden's Peak. Or any of the many orders on Earth like the Knights Templar. The government has every right to interfere since the groups are in their yard. They only don't because they made conditions with said orders, pretty much "If you don't do anything we don't like, you can stay here". It will not be easy to convince the nations that your order is better for too many reasons to list. But the list boils down to "You need them, they don't need you."

 

Okay, you want one: Dragon Age Lore. The Book of Thedas, which is pretty much the Word of God until further notice.

 

Again, the governments at best tolerate the Grey Wardens. And like everything else, the Grey Wardens follow conditions, granted unofficial ones. They need the goodwill of the governments to operate. Killing citizens of those nations doesn't do that. To use your own words, you're naive if you think differently.

LoL wardens in keep openly tried mess with politics overthrowing king thing they shouldn't do and why they were kicked from ferelden as i said i plan grey warden like organization they are accepted as long they don't mess with politics and focus on darkspawn same for templars just instead darkspawn foucus on mages..

 

As i said goverment can't interfere in matter of templars or grey wardens (read recruitment of grey wardens or other wardens matter and mages in templar case) so both grey warden can do whatever they want as long they don't mess with country politics...

 

So no neither king or noble can decide what to do with mages that is up to templars and that is ther jurisdiction and country don't have any to say here examples alistair , amells and few other nobles. 

 

As yes grey wardens are needed as well anti-mages...

 

LoL you are keep saying me theoretical function of seekers not practical it is only conception of seekers not how they rly work...

 

Eee again nope grey wardens everywhere are heroes (outside ferelden) not only tolerated... everyone know they are necessity to deal with darkspawn... also they as i said are seen as heroes  As i said 1000 times because you ignore that GREY WARDEN DEAL WITH DARKSPAWN THAT IS THEIR FOCUS AS TEMPLAR DEAL WITH MAGES THAT IS THEIR FOCUS NEITHER CAN JUST KILL CITIZENS BUT BOTH CAN KILL GROUPS THAT THEY FOCUS SO GREY WARDEN CAN KILL/HAVE TO KILL DARKSPAWN AND TEMPLARS CAN/OFTEN HAVE TO KILL MAGE AS MAGES ARE UNDER TEMPLARS CONTROL NOT COUNTRY COUNTRY CITIZENS ARE UNDER COUNTRY CONTROL NOT TEMPLARS BUT MAGES AREN'T IN THAT GROUP AND THEY ARE UNDER TEMPLAR CONTROL...

 

 

Some of the nobles did support the mages though. :/ 

 

The templars had most of the political power in Kirkwall, that isn't the case in the rest of Thedas. The nobles in Kirkwall have no forces to stand up to the templars with and once again this is a completely different situation to the one you are proposing. 

 

Having a mage in the family is seen as a dishonor but it's not always felt as one, we have many examples that prove this and they are sent to the circle because that is meant to be the best place for them. 

 

Annulment is not something the Templars can just decide to do and neither is tranquility. Kirkwall is not a good example of this because Meredith had all the political power after the viscount and Elthina died and even when they were alive, neither did much to resist her. 

Some yep but some can't do crap if they tried they would ****** off rest of the nobles and folks pretty much like amell who had to spend fortune to hide that in his family were mages still he failed neither they could do anything about templars taking away their children.

 

If your hawke is mage and you will go to party in MoTA you can hear what sane woman would want marry mage from orlesian noblewoman... mages are danger peoples want to be safe as well mages are seen by majority as outcasts...

 

We have few examples of that most stories from mages are that parent hated them and throw them out...

 

RoA is decided by chantry and doesn't matter chantry isn't goverment organization in fact templars are part of that organization...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Thanks for proving my point.

[DontWakeTheBear]

Can i just ask why people bother responding to TKS when he does these things? It's pretty clear he's decided his views a long time ago and it won't matter what anybody says, you'll have about as much luck convincing him that he's wrong as he would at convincing you to go out and kill babies. All that arguing with him does is derail a thread and get it locked. After all, what does the killing or non killing of mages have to do with if Flemeth will appear to the Inquisitor? When he goes off on his kill all mages rant, people should probably just ignore him and stay on topic, just a thought though.

[mikeymoonshine]

 

Some yep but some can't do crap if they tried they would ****** off rest of the nobles and folks pretty much like amell who had to spend fortune to hide that in his family were mages still he failed neither they could do anything about templars taking away their children.

 

If your hawke is mage and you will go to party in MoTA you can hear what sane woman would want marry mage from orlesian noblewoman... mages are danger peoples want to be safe as well mages are seen by majority as outcasts...

 

We have few examples of that most stories from mages are that parent hated them and throw them out...

 

RoA is decided by chantry and doesn't matter chantry isn't goverment organization in fact templars are part of that organization...

 

Yes some did so I suppose you are accepting that you were wrong about how mages are viewed by admitting this? You do realize that non of this Amell stuff is relevant because, as I have said already about a million times we are talking about a  completely different political situation. 

 

Nobles don't want to marry mages because mages can't inherit titles. Mages are seen as outcasts by many people yes but that doesn't mean they would support killing them and as you just admitted, many do not see them as outcasts. 

 

Annulment is a "last resort" and yes it is the decision of the grand cleric or the devine (I guess) not the templars. The chantry wouldn't be able to just randomly decide in annul every circle though because of the political compromises we discussed already. 

[mikeymoonshine]

Can i just ask why people bother responding to TKS when he does these things? It's pretty clear he's decided his views a long time ago and it won't matter what anybody says, you'll have about as much luck convincing him that he's wrong as he would at convincing you to go out and kill babies. All that arguing with him does is derail a thread and get it locked. After all, what does the killing or non killing of mages have to do with if Flemeth will appear to the Inquisitor? When he goes off on his kill all mages rant, people should probably just ignore him and stay on topic, just a thought though.

 

You are right tbh, that was my original point but idk. his responses were so annoying I ended up arguing with him again. 

[ladyoflate]

You are right tbh, that was my original point but idk. his responses were so annoying I ended up arguing with him again. 

 

Truly it doth take Qunari-level self-control.

 

Idk, I like the idea of Morrigan showing up in-Fade and saving you from like a pride demon or something, but then that idea begs the question: how will Flemeth appear if not to save our sorry asses?

[mikeymoonshine]

Truly it doth take Qunari-level self-control.

 

Idk, I like the idea of Morrigan showing up in-Fade and saving you from like a pride demon or something, but then that idea begs the question: how will Flemeth appear if not to save our sorry asses?

 

I have no idea, it seems a shame to completely throw out that tradition but we know when abouts the game starts. There will be no demons before the fade tear and we were meant to have been seen walking out of the fade by cass's soldiers. 

 

So if it does happen it has to happen in the fade like you say, because the game could actually start in the fade for all we know. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

Thanks for proving my point.

Yea thanks for proving my point i can do that too...

 

and yeap if someone want argue with me do that in mage topic because 1 page was spam thanks to us...

[ladyoflate]

I have no idea, it seems a shame to completely throw out that tradition but we know when abouts the game starts. There will be no demons before the fade tear and we were meant to have been seen walking out of the fade by cass's soldiers. 

 

So if it does happen it has to happen in the fade like you say, because the game could actually start in the fade for all we know. 

 

I don't know that it's throwing out tradition as opposed to twisting it slightly, you know? You expect Flemeth, here's Morrigan instead. or Yavana or someone Flemeth-related.

 

It's also possible that we walk out of the fade, get accosted by Cassandra and Varric and they're pr much alone because Cassandra's group died in the blast or something, and as Cass is throwing you over her shoulder to cart off somewhere, SUDDEN OGRE. And then Flemeth turns up and tells Cass not to kill you 'cause you're gonna be awesome.

[azarhal]

And then Flemeth turns up and tells Cass not to kill you 'cause you're gonna be awesome.

 

I'm not sure if Cass is going to listen to "Flemeth" considering her dialogs in relation to her in DA2...

[Milan92]

I'm not sure if Cass is going to listen to "Flemeth" considering her dialogs in relation to her in DA2...

 

Cassandra: "Flemeth = Witch = Danger + Dragon = Error Danger!"

[ladyoflate]

Then Cassandra is the Ogre you are saved from!

[Setiweb]

I'm wondering if the story Morrigan gives you about Flemeth possessing her daughters is true.  If it is, and Flemeth's plan for an OGB comes to pass, I would think Flemeth would be more interested in possessing the OGB when it grows up.

[mikeymoonshine]

I'm wondering if the story Morrigan gives you about Flemeth possessing her daughters is true.  If it is, and Flemeth's plan for an OGB comes to pass, I would think Flemeth would be more interested in possessing the OGB when it grows up.

 

Well when you go to kill Flemeth you can say "she (meaning Morrigan) knows how you extend your unnatural lifespan" and Flemeth responds with "that she does, the question is do you?".

So it's possible that Morrigan was lying to you. Flemeth knew Morrigan would try to have her killed, the amulet proves this. There is also the fact that Flemeth can put a part of herself into an amulet that can then take corporal form and seems to have all the powers she does without possessing anyone.   

 

Why would Flemeth let Morrigan get a hold of that information if she knew it would ruin her chances of possessing her? 

[pallascedar]

That is because the Seekers were misinformed, they believed all the sh!t that happened in Kirkwall was because of Hawke, in actuality Hawke was just a stupid witness.

 

Whatever Flemeth's plans for Hawke I think she did know that s/he would be in important. Because Hawke was important, even though there was little player ability to stop the trainwreck that was Kirkwall everything that happened still was directly related to Hawke.

 

Without Hawke the expedition would not have found the Idol and Meredith wouldn't have gone crazy.

 

Without Hawke the Qunari situation would have turned out very, very differently.

 

Without Hawke Anders would have gone to meet Karl and died in the Chantry.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I'm wondering if the story Morrigan gives you about Flemeth possessing her daughters is true.  If it is, and Flemeth's plan for an OGB comes to pass, I would think Flemeth would be more interested in possessing the OGB when it grows up.

It seems that ritual is at least true (that was confirmed by Yavana) so i think morrigan said truth here or at least she thought possess her.

[ladyoflate]

Well when you go to kill Flemeth you can say "she (meaning Morrigan) knows how you extend your unnatural lifespan" and Flemeth responds with "that she does, the question is do you?".

So it's possible that Morrigan was lying to you. Flemeth knew Morrigan would try to have her killed, the amulet proves this. There is also the fact that Flemeth can put a part of herself into an amulet that can then take corporal form and seems to have all the powers she does without possessing anyone.   

 

Why would Flemeth let Morrigan get a hold of that information if she knew it would ruin her chances of possessing her? 

 

It's entirely possible Flemeth never intended to kill Morrigan specifically--that Morrigan's purpose was not necessarily for possession, but to have the OGB.

 

This is of course countermanded by the fact Flemeth seemed hella old in DA:O and Morrigan didn't have a similarly-aged sister.

 

Then again, she looks much younger in DA2 so who even knows any more.

[mikeymoonshine]

It's entirely possible Flemeth never intended to kill Morrigan specifically--that Morrigan's purpose was not necessarily for possession, but to have the OGB.

 

This is of course countermanded by the fact Flemeth seemed hella old in DA:O and Morrigan didn't have a similarly-aged sister.

 

Then again, she looks much younger in DA2 so who even knows any more.

 

Well I remember Morrigan saying that Flemeth could have and raise another daughter even at that age, using magic. She never actually dies her body just ages and gets weaker.