63 respuestas en este tema

[Farangbaa]

What the hell did I just read?

[damienmondragon]

You read the latest of a series of responses to a proposal by a ME 4 developer to use games like ME 4 to promote “social justice” in the story lines, at the 2014 GDC. http://www.gamerhead...e-stereotyping/

What the hell did I just read?

The Mass Effect veteran went on to discuss how gaming consistently fails to tackle issues like “misogyny, sexism, racism, ethnocentrism, nationalism, ageism, ableism, homophobia, transphobia, queerphobia and other types of social injustice.”

“These negative stereotypes affect the identity of individuals in these groups – they affect the way people think and treat others in the real world and perpetuate the social injustices that occur in these different groups.”

“We should use the ability of our medium to show players the issues first hand, or give them a unique understanding of the issues and complexities by crafting game mechanics along with narrative components that result in dynamics of play that create meaning for the player in ways that other media isn’t capable of.”

 The reporter covering the 2014 Game Developers Conference goes on to write “I think this is Heir’s way of making gamers think about the ‘issue’ rather than the sort of ‘there if you want it’ options offered by the sexuality of Mass Effect’s Commander Shepard.” And there was a two minute standing ovation for the proposal.

I do not see a problem with any of the ‘isms’ or ‘phobias’ in the ME series, in ME 3 you have the option of a straight or gay Cmdr. Shepard of either sex or any human race. You have your choice of custom avatars for you game.

My first run through I spoke with and befriended as many of the characters as I could, to see how well they had been crafted. I befriended Cortez and treated him as a friend, but when he hit on my avatar in Purgatory I declined and received enough renegade points to cost me the option to broker peace between the Geth and Quarians. I was penalized for not selecting to have a same sex lover, but not for turning down Ashley, Miranda, and the reporter, in favor of Liara or next time Tali, four characters I have liked for years.

The developers of ME are really talented, I really enjoy their work, I do not want outside activists pushing an agenda trying to turn these games into marathon sensitivity classes. Where does this stop, what sexual minorities don’t get represented and how are penalties assigned for not being a sensitive guy? How much game resources get dedicated to sensitivity story lines?

What is my game experience going to be like, restrict my options, try and force me to select options I should not have to? Be a sensitive spec ops hero, saving the universe and affirming myriad life options.

When did it become anybodies business how I customize my personal gaming experience given I’ve paid for it, and own it? Unless the ‘art’ of the situation is to get you to appreciate the frustration of being penalized for the sexual partner of your choice, so you sympathize with sexual minorities. If you read the responses to the GDC 2014 article you will realize most who responded to it felt the same.

I am black, an unapologetic conservative, Christian and near 60, I will defend our beliefs and values from charges of ignorance and backwards superstition with the reasoning behind them as best I can.

I do my best to defend those who share my life experience and values, they include friends and relatives who have been at this struggle since I was a kid, I look back with longing at the strengths and values most of us had as a community before so many of us became so secular. We won recognition of our rights and equality with non violent civil disobedience against an armed KKK, that most holding power  in the segregation states had to belong to and support to hold office and power.

I am concerned about how characters and players with similar values will come to be treated and depicted in the new games, especially given my experience with many advocates of ‘tolerance and diversity ‘, and how once they got the influence, they have treated those who have advocated for stronger traditional families decades before redefining family even became an issue.

Given how fast tolerance and diversity went to “we will make an example of you, try to destroy you, your reputation, your career your business or livelihood if you publicly support the idea marriage is between one man and one woman", if you advocate the superiority of traditional marriage and family over all other options, or if you oppose the redefinition of marriage. Given what I have seen so far, I am not encouraged.

[Xilizhra]

Sooooo... why are you talking about an issue you had with ME3 in a ME1 board? And are you sure you didn't just turn Cortez down in a particularly dickish way?

As for the rest... it has nothing at all to do with ME, so I don't really want to reply, but I will say that you're conflating numerous unrelated things, and "traditional marriage" was never under any kind of threat from gay people getting married, unless you want to advocate gay people entering heterosexual marriages they didn't want.

[damienmondragon]

Sooooo... why are you talking about an issue you had with ME3 in a ME1 board? And are you sure you didn't just turn Cortez down in a particularly dickish way?

Sooooo... why are you talking about an issue you had with ME3 in a ME1 board? And are you sure you didn't just turn Cortez down in a particularly dickish way?

As for the rest... it has nothing at all to do with ME, so I don't really want to reply, but I will say that you're conflating numerous unrelated things, and "traditional marriage" was never under any kind of threat from gay people getting married, unless you want to advocate gay people entering heterosexual marriages they didn't want.

I remember being offered only one option to say no, and trying to treat him as a friend. He said something about me being eye candy and my option was I considered the dancers (they were all women) eye candy.

As for the rest... it has nothing at all to do with ME, so I don't really want to reply, but I will say that you're conflating numerous unrelated things, and "traditional marriage" was never under any kind of threat from gay people getting married, unless you want to advocate gay people entering heterosexual marriages they didn't want.

 

For 25-30 years many of my people advocated the tradition, biblical, nuclear, mother, father and their children as the best and ideal way to raise a family, as people have for millennia. In my life time this became really necessary because living together and maybe waiting till first until pregnancy to get marry was gaining acceptability as was the idea of not bothering to commit to marriage even then.

There were no government subsidies if you were low income unless you abandoned you family. Then there came government checks to help make a father unnecessary in the eyes of many young men of all races who wanted to roam, hustle, party,... plenty of hot young single women available too.

Living together until it turned into a hassle, single motherhood, or an increasingly easy to get abortion or any number of boyfriends willing to try fatherhood for a while were options as good as the child’s dad committing to that family and being a dad as opposed to walking away. If the boyfriends fathered a child or two and left also, well increasingly celebrity entertainers and athletes were doing it, and it was being accepted.

Problem is children of all races were having problems with this as they have throughout history when dads felt free to walk away, and this managed to hit black households especially hard. Being a black man and supporting a family wasn’t easy, especially back when restricting you to low wage jobs was legal, but back then most fathers still did, (when I was born our out of wed lock birth rate was 17%, now it is about 70%).

Or you could have several lady friends giving birth to and raising your babies, visit them here, visit there, bring some gifts, (live like grandparents, places to go where someone would be happy to see your face,), places to go when things got too heavy where you were. Celebrities admired by millions were doing it, if you were smooth enough to run it, you could too.  Often seemed to take a consistent caring father walking the walk to help raise their sons to be responsible and disciplined in a tough neighborhood.

This is the moral decline the communities of faith struggled with; fatherless homes, growing poverty, crime, violence, drug abuse, and abortion rates. http://www.toomanyab...numberonekiller This was a long, tough and losing battle, then a new minority came out to make this a new civil rights struggle. And they had the audacity to co-opt our civil rights struggles, our victories, and heroes to use to their advantage, and at times against us.

Suddenly we were not just old fashioned; we were hypocrites no better than the KKK and racists who opposed inter racial marriage. Decades before marriage equality people of faith struggled to ‘save as many as possible’ by advocating to our young our belief that a traditional family is the best possible option for raising a family and well worth whatever struggle, suffering and sacrifice it took.

What happened when people tried to equate  marriage to common law polygamy, never getting married at all and the other pop culture social experiments that all came before the marriage equality revolution? Again; growing poverty, crime, violence, drug abuse, and abortion rates,  civil unions themselves probably wouldn’t affect the above, but attempts to make marriage one option amongst equal options has and does.

When most young couples treated marriage like it was worth whatever struggle for both of you do your role for each other and your kids, the traditional family seemed to work better than any secular social experiment tried in my life time, it still seems to work better than the modern secular experiments. Graduate high school, find and get a job you can keep, commit to marriage and a nuclear family before you have children, less than 9% of such black families live in poverty.

Marriage is still for many of us a holy sacrament, to take it upon yourself to co-opt and redefine a sacrament is a sacrilege and a serious sin, especially if it will lead others away from the original intent of the sacrament. To participate in a sacrilege and help promote the main stream acceptance of a sacrilege is no small sin either, you are helping lead others including future generations away from the true original meaning and benefits of that holy sacrament.

If you try to force people to participate in a sacrilege by baking, catering, photographing, providing flowers, entertainment or other services, and threatening lawsuits if they do not go along to get along, you are waging war against their business, their lively hood, because of their faith. You might remember the Miss America finalist,  and the Chick-Fil-A CEO who were made examples of for honestly answering a question about their definition of marriage, by citing tenets of their faith. These are just some who made the major news.

Check to see how many of these business people used as an example to intimidate others into going along to get along not only had no history of discrimination against gay people, but employed gays, and served well and fairly their gay customers. They only declined to participate in a sacrilege, and some  even then referred these customers to others who might not find it a sacrilege to participate in mainstreaming the secular redefinition of a holy sacrament.

This would not be the first noble and well intentioned movement to become dominated by activists with a personal score to settle with any who disagree with their goals. Step back and look too see if religious persecution has not become part of the treatment of those who believe in the traditional definition of the holy sacrament  marriage, those who believe that the redefinition of marriage is a sacrilege they will not participate in.  

If you support intimidating others into turning a blind eye, deaf ear and mute voice to marginalizing and vilifying people of faith for stating tenets of their faith, it is probably a good indication of where those leading your civil rights movement have you headed. Was it really necessary to redefine marriage, a holy sacrament? Would equality through civil unions not have been a wiser choice? What about trying to wreck a person's career or lively hood for speaking their religious beliefs?

Maybe ask how you missed seeing this in these terms all these years, question the media and pop culture that maybe had you cheer and justify this as ‘what they deserved’ as you watched it happen. Starting to see why some of us question enlisting gaming in a social justice movement that so smoothly embraces religious persecution, and coercing people to go along to get along?

 

“We should use the ability of our medium to show players the issues first hand, or give them a unique understanding of the issues and complexities by crafting game mechanics along with narrative components that result in dynamics of play that create meaning for the player in ways that other media isn’t capable of.”

Manveer Heir,  GDC 2014

These people probably go into this with good intentions.

[damienmondragon]

For the first time in months I have the time to follow up on interests like the progress of games like ME 4.

The first result I get in my Google search is.

Mass Effect 4: everything we know so far • Eurogamer.net

www.eurogamer.net › Guides › Mass Effect 4

Eurogamer

Nov 11, 2014 - Everything we know about Mass Effect 4, from the characters to the story itself, with early footage of the game in action.

You've visited this page 2 times. Last visit: 12/26/14

 

And the first topic ,
The story, characters and gameplay of Mass Effect 4

ends with the paragraph

 

Given the omission of core characters and story fragments, when the game's official title is revealed, it certainly won't be "Mass Effect 4". But there will be no upheavals in the game's genre or design - it will be "the same type of game as the first three", Roy has said. Romance options are again due for inclusion and "there is no reason to believe" that same-sex options will be omitted, reflecting BioWare's existing commitment to diversity in its output.

 

As romance options are apparently still a major topic of interest I still ask, Will all such options be treated equally?

As a hetero sexual black male will I have my choice of a black female given equal weight in the game, mechanics as the selection of a sexual minority?

In ME 1 the love interest that appeared would offer the most developed character was Ashley, in ME 2 it was Miranda, in ME 3 it was Liara.

In fact in my first ME 3 play throughI turned down Ashley and Miranda for Liara, as well as Cortez who I had befriended but was not interested in as a lover.  For turning down Cortez with the only option the game offered I was set up to loose paragon points and thus could not broker a peace between the Quarians and Geth. I had enough paragon points to see that option in pale letters but not enough to us it. I was not penalized for turning down Ashley and Miranda as I was for Cortez.

Anybody come across any indication all options for love interests will be treated equally?

Or will our enthusiasm for the new game stand to inspire people who trust and respect our taste and judgement to purchase a game where most stand to be penalized for their sexual orientation?

 

[Vazgen]

If Mass Effect 3 is of any indication all romance options, regardless of their sexual orientation, skin color and gender, will be treated equally. Even more, prejudice against them was not even be mentioned, which I highly agree with and hope that this trend will continue. I haven't played Dragon Age Inquisition but from what I've heard it has taken a wrong turn by using the issues that these people face in the real life. IMO the game should show a society where people are accepted regardless of their sexual orientation, skin color or gender. Mass Effect 3 was made quite well in that regard with Cortez talking openly about having a husband and no one chastising him or Samantha for their skin color or sexual orientation. As for the paragon/renegade points, I think ME:Next will rework that system, but even if they did not - it's not about rewarding or punishing the player. There is a fixed number of paragon/renegade and reputation points you need to have for the conversation to unlock. How you acquire those points is irrelevant. You can get the points from Cortez, lose them by punching a reporter and still not be able to achieve peace. That doesn't mean that the game punishes you for that action. 

Oh, and if you see the option but can't use it, it's likely due to the lack of reputation points which you get regardless of turning Cortez down or locking the romance. There are a lot of fetch quests that give those points, as well as conversations with NPCs and squadmates

[Reorte]

If Mass Effect 3 is of any indication all romance options, regardless of their sexual orientation, skin color and gender, will be treated equally. Even more, prejudice against them was not even be mentioned, which I highly agree with and hope that this trend will continue. I haven't played Dragon Age Inquisition but from what I've heard it has taken a wrong turn by using the issues that these people face in the real life. IMO the game should show a society where people are accepted regardless of their sexual orientation, skin color or gender.

Depends whether it fits or not. It's good that BioWare isn't sticking with the safe option but unfortunately we know prejudice often exists, and a world where there isn't any isn't always particularly beliveable (and it's more believable that such prejudice has gone in Mass Effect than Dragon Age - and of course it should vary between cultures in a fictional world too).

[Current Future]

If Mass Effect 3 is of any indication all romance options, regardless of their sexual orientation, skin color and gender, will be treated equally. Even more, prejudice against them was not even be mentioned, which I highly agree with and hope that this trend will continue. I haven't played Dragon Age Inquisition but from what I've heard it has taken a wrong turn by using the issues that these people face in the real life. IMO the game should show a society where people are accepted regardless of their sexual orientation, skin color or gender.

I have played Dragon Age: Inquisition and I have no idea where this person is coming from.

 

There's no discrimination for same-sex romances, or color or gender.  BioWare is just trying to address previous complaints about things like DAII where every romance option was bi-sexual and in ME3 where Kaidan suddenly plays for both teams or Cortes is romanced when you were just trying to be nice.  

 

In DA:I there are, overall, 8 romance options, but only a few will be open to you depending upon who you play.  Want to play a Qunari female?  You've now got 4 options.  Want to play a Dwarven male?  Again, 4 options but 2 of them are different. 

 

You want to see a society where people are accepted regardless of their sexual orientation, skin color or gender (stated in your post) well, Inquisition is already doing that.  This isn't to say there isn't prejudice in the game, some characters hate Vivienne, a black Mage, but not because she's a woman or because she's black.  Dorian is a homosexual male at odds with his parents, but not because of his sexuality.

 

So please, next time play a game before you say it's doing it wrong.

[Vazgen]

I have played Dragon Age: Inquisition and I have no idea where this person is coming from.

There's no discrimination for same-sex romances, or color or gender. BioWare is just trying to address previous complaints about things like DAII where every romance option was bi-sexual and in ME3 where Kaidan suddenly plays for both teams or Cortes is romanced when you were just trying to be nice.

In DA:I there are, overall, 8 romance options, but only a few will be open to you depending upon who you play. Want to play a Qunari female? You've now got 4 options. Want to play a Dwarven male? Again, 4 options but 2 of them are different.

You want to see a society where people are accepted regardless of their sexual orientation, skin color or gender (stated in your post) well, Inquisition is already doing that. This isn't to say there isn't prejudice in the game, some characters hate Vivienne, a black Mage, but not because she's a woman or because she's black. Dorian is a homosexual male at odds with his parents, but not because of his sexuality.

So please, next time play a game before you say it's doing it wrong.

Notice how I said that "from what I've heard it has taken a wrong turn by using the issues that these people face in the real life". I then proceeded with writing what do I view as the right path for addressing these topics. If DA:I does that, good, if not, bad (for me). I'm not judging the game I haven't even played. I don't know how I can communicate it better.
I've seen complaints on this and related issues on Dragon Age Inquisition forum and while some people did not agree with them, some did. Again, I'm not judging the game based on people comments, just saying that the question was raised.

[damienmondragon]

If Mass Effect 3 is of any indication all romance options, regardless of their sexual orientation, skin color and gender, will be treated equally. Even more, prejudice against them was not even be mentioned, which I highly agree with and hope that this trend will continue. I haven't played Dragon Age Inquisition but from what I've heard it has taken a wrong turn by using the issues that these people face in the real life. IMO the game should show a society where people are accepted regardless of their sexual orientation, skin color or gender. Mass Effect 3 was made quite well in that regard with Cortez talking openly about having a husband and no one chastising him or Samantha for their skin color or sexual orientation. As for the paragon/renegade points, I think ME:Next will rework that system, but even if they did not - it's not about rewarding or punishing the player. There is a fixed number of paragon/renegade and reputation points you need to have for the conversation to unlock. How you acquire those points is irrelevant. You can get the points from Cortez, lose them by punching a reporter and still not be able to achieve peace. That doesn't mean that the game punishes you for that action. 

Oh, and if you see the option but can't use it, it's likely due to the lack of reputation points which you get regardless of turning Cortez down or locking the romance. There are a lot of fetch quests that give those points, as well as conversations with NPCs and squadmates

 

 

Vazgen

 

When I first played the game I played to get as many paragon points as possible, I understand how unlocking options works. when Cortez hit on my avatar in the bar I took the only option given to decline and got the most renegade points I got in the game. I was so surprised when I took that hit, that it still stood out when I could see and not use the option to broker peace, that I thought of where I had gotten most my renegade points playing to that point.

 

I.went back to the closest save I had before checking out why Cortez was crying and then avoided him. I didn't do anything to earn paragon or renegade points from Cortez and still had enough paragon points to broker peace when I had the chance,  and I did not have to sacrifice Geth or Quarians.

 

I was on staycation (stay home vacation) and had played that far in two days, so everything I had done in a weekend was real fresh in my mind. I played the game the same as I had earlier. The only change I made was not putting myself in position to turn down Cortez. If the game penalized players  with enough renegade points to limit their game play  options for choosing a same sex lover, I assume you would find that as unacceptable as I did what happened to me.

 

If the purpose was to make you feel abused for being penalized for your selection of lover, it also burned up too much of my scarce vacation time to teach me that lesson, and to.have to back track to a save that would allow me to  avoid the Cortez experience and replay the game to get the result I was after, survival of both Geth and Quarians.

 

I do not want to be so manipulated in the coming game, neither do I want to have such a surprise in a game I have long anticipated and would like to recommend to those who trust and respect me, friends and relatives who would be insulted to see something like this as a  lesson I believe they need to experience.

 

If there is no special penalty for declining Cortez, please explain the number of renegade points you get for taking the one option you are given to decline his proposition.

 

Not to jump all over you Vazgen, but I reaaly do not want to see this ham handed bias to school gamers in "social justice" in the coming installment, I don't want to find it accepted and spread in this coming installment. Call me selfish, but I don't want to wait years for the next installment of this series to see if this has become a tool of social engineering as opposed to a superb vehicle of entertainment it can be and has been.

 

Remember having to redo the original 'artsy' ending of ME3. Entertain the players, serve them so they want to come back, don't experiment with them to win the approval of your peers, your success depends on satisfying your players, not changing them to serve your wishes.

 

 

[damienmondragon]

I have played Dragon Age: Inquisition and I have no idea where this person is coming from.

 

There's no discrimination for same-sex romances, or color or gender.  BioWare is just trying to address previous complaints about things like DAII where every romance option was bi-sexual and in ME3 where Kaidan suddenly plays for both teams or Cortes is romanced when you were just trying to be nice.  

 

In DA:I there are, overall, 8 romance options, but only a few will be open to you depending upon who you play.  Want to play a Qunari female?  You've now got 4 options.  Want to play a Dwarven male?  Again, 4 options but 2 of them are different. 

 

You want to see a society where people are accepted regardless of their sexual orientation, skin color or gender (stated in your post) well, Inquisition is already doing that.  This isn't to say there isn't prejudice in the game, some characters hate Vivienne, a black Mage, but not because she's a woman or because she's black.  Dorian is a homosexual male at odds with his parents, but not because of his sexuality.

 

So please, next time play a game before you say it's doing it wrong.

 Current Future

 

In ME 3 I picked a bisexual, hermaphrodite?, alien with scales and tentacles for hair and an alien in a space suit who's face i had never seen as lovers because of friendship, trust and affection. I chose them over Ashley, Miranda and the moody pierced and tatted super biotic. Wasn't for points, just characters who I like and felt attached to after years of adventures with.

 

The game was programmed for it to be more important I befriend a gay man and then accept him for what, a one nighter, or my love interest for that game. Declining his proposition wasn't just the most renegade points I got for anything else I did in the game up to that point, it was more like, more negative points than for everything else I had done up to that point combined.

 

I am born in the mid 1950s old school, trying to be the best good guy that seems realistic, is for me an achievement to be proud of. saving Tali and her people, and Legion and the Geth is far more satisfying then whatever comes from pretending to have a gay love affair. Trying to force me to feel what a gay person feels if they can not have a relationship with the love interest of their choice, and then hang a big penalty on me if  I do not go to my last save and change my choice is not what I bought the game for.

 

Am I a customer who bought a service from talented artists, a game to entertain me where ever I choose to play it? Or am I a subject my betters plan to change as they see fit, for the approval of their peers, whether I want that change or not?

 

Remember the original ending of ME 3, did it serve or seem to satisfy the consumers or artists?

 

Who's purpose is to deliver satisfactory results to whom; the artists to the customer who pays the artists for art they will enjoy, or the customer to those artists who choose to change their customers to the artist's liking?

[Vazgen]

Can you clarify what option do you refer to that gives you so many Renegade points? I know of one option to refuse Cortez and it's in the Purgatory where you get the same +5 Reputation and no Renegade/Paragon points no matter what you choose.

[Kantr]

Bioware will do what they do always do where they will make a game where no-one cares what gender or preference of partner you have.

 

 Current Future

 

In ME 3 I picked a bisexual, hermaphrodite?, alien with scales and tentacles for hair and an alien in a space suit who's face i had never seen as lovers because of friendship, trust and affection. I chose them over Ashley, Miranda and the moody pierced and tatted super biotic. Wasn't for points, just characters who I like and felt attached to after years of adventures with.

 

The game was programmed for it to be more important I befriend a gay man and then accept him for what, a one nighter, or my love interest for that game. Declining his proposition wasn't just the most renegade points I got for anything else I did in the game up to that point, it was more like, more negative points than for everything else I had done up to that point combined.

 

I am born in the mid 1950s old school, trying to be the best good guy that seems realistic, is for me an achievement to be proud of. saving Tali and her people, and Legion and the Geth is far more satisfying then whatever comes from pretending to have a gay love affair. Trying to force me to feel what a gay person feels if they can not have a relationship with the love interest of their choice, and then hang a big penalty on me if  I do not go to my last save and change my choice is not what I bought the game for.

 

Am I a customer who bought a service from talented artists, a game to entertain me where ever I choose to play it? Or am I a subject my betters plan to change as they see fit, for the approval of their peers, whether I want that change or not?

 

Remember the original ending of ME 3, did it serve or seem to satisfy the consumers or artists?

 

Who's purpose is to deliver satisfactory results to whom; the artists to the customer who pays the artists for art they will enjoy, or the customer to those artists who choose to change their customers to the artist's liking?

Thats your fault not theirs. You chose to romance cortez and then turn him down.

[damienmondragon]

Can you clarify what option do you refer to that gives you so many Renegade points? I know of one option to refuse Cortez and it's in the Purgatory where you get the same +5 Reputation and no Renegade/Paragon points no matter what you choose.

The bar is the one where you ever hear the girl sells her red sports shuttle to buy her Salarian boy friend armor he describes as making him fell safe  like he was in a tank, and he squad mates of the ambassador's son refuse to speak to outsiders but you can over hear them speaking amongst each other about his sacrificing himself for them.

 

The option was in response to Cortez referring to me as eye candy, and the only option you get is that you consider the dancers eye candy. Until then the little red indicator at the base of the reputation bar measuring renegade points may have indicated 1 or 2 if you are accurate in saying you only get 5 points, but they were definitely the red renegade column and not the blue paragon section of the bar. On my display the red renegade star is connected to the red section by a red arrowhead and the blue paragon section the blue paragon icon and the reputation bar is divided into 5 or 6 equal length sections.

 

They took that indicator bar from something barely noticeable, to something that immediately was noticeably at least two and a half, three times thicker than it had been, the next time I checked my status.

 

I remember thinking I had maybe  4 or 5 renegade points before and maybe  10 or 15 after and being pissed, but I wasn't closing the door on Liara for Cortez. And nothing noticeable happened when I left Miranda in tears, and Ashley and Tali to hit the bottle over my not selecting them for Liara.

 

Curious why you feel you only get 5 neutral reputation points.

[Vazgen]

Reputation increases your "reputation bar" while maintaining Paragon/Renegade ratio. You may notice it if you level up your class power and choose Reputation bonus - the bar grows. If your Reputation (the bar) is higher than a certain number (markings on the bar) you'll get the options (both Paragon and Renegade). When you get +5 Reputation, the bar is increased by 5 while maintaining Paragon/Renegade ratio. So if your Renegade bar went up, so did your Paragon bar (and vice versa), unless we're talking about some glitch. Reputation points are neutral, thus they even have a neutral icon (Renegade mixed with Paragon). It's like getting both Paragon and Renegade points in ME2. Here is a video of what are the results of the rejection

P.S. There are about 1-2 additional options to reject him even if you pick "I'm an eye candy too" option. Not that it's related though.

[damienmondragon]

Reputation increases your "reputation bar" while maintaining Paragon/Renegade ratio. You may notice it if you level up your class power and choose Reputation bonus - the bar grows. If your Reputation (the bar) is higher than a certain number (markings on the bar) you'll get the options (both Paragon and Renegade). When you get +5 Reputation, the bar is increased by 5 while maintaining Paragon/Renegade ratio. So if your Renegade bar went up, so did your Paragon bar (and vice versa), unless we're talking about some glitch. Reputation points are neutral, thus they even have a neutral icon (Renegade mixed with Paragon). It's like getting both Paragon and Renegade points in ME2. Here is a video of what are the results of the rejection

P.S. There are about 1-2 additional options to reject him even if you pick "I'm an eye candy too" option. Not that it's related though.

 

Thank you Vazgen,

I tried to treat Cortez as a friend with the options offered, thought I had done well and couldn't have been more appalled to find my renegade section so swollen. A big relief not to have to worry so much about agenda driven activists (no matter how well intended) hijacking the franchise to have it more influence gamers to accept, support, even advocate a cause.

 

Call me selfish but I have not waited for years to pay top dollar for an experiment in mixing pc ideology with with top shelf sci-fi entertainment, (because someone feels we need to be taught something slipped  into my entertainment) that I would not choose to study if left to my own.

 

I can not but hope that social justice activists do not water down the grit, wit, excitement and adventure of the game to bludgeon social justice PC into the world of realistic elite warriors.

 

[damienmondragon]

Social justice; redefining marriage, family and sanity

Making social justice a theme in gaming, how to portray both sides?

 “We should use the ability of our medium to show players the issues first hand, or give them a unique understanding of the issues and complexities by crafting game mechanics along with narrative components that result in dynamics of play that create meaning for the player in ways that other media isn’t capable of.”

As an example, he envisioned a game where a soldier comes out to his squad and over time he works with them to earn their trust and acceptance and they become a stronger unit for it. While such an idea has a rough starting point, as you could argue why should he have to prove himself (and you’d be right), I think this is Heir’s way of making gamers think about the ‘issue’ rather than the sort of ‘there if you want it’ options offered by the sexuality of Mass Effect’s Commander Sheppard.

Read more: http://www.gamerheadlines.com/2014/03/mass-effect-4-negative-stereotyping/#ixzz334BEvemo

 

Taking out the ‘there if you want it option’ and crafting the game mechanics and narrative components sounds like taking away the players choice and forcing them to make what someone, (probably an activist) deems the right or wrong choice, based on another politically correct agenda.

I for one haven’t waited all this time for ME 4, to quietly go along to get along with the start of something like this. Far more than I like I have seen what activists like this both inside and outside the black community have done to my people. There is something to consider here.

The developers of ME 4 can make compelling and memorable characters, what would happen if they made compelling memorable characters on both sides of marriage equality, redefining family, redefining what is moral acceptability, redefining what is sanity, changing from traditional morality to social justice morality and conveyed them equally?

The best modern TV sci-fi has a certain politically incorrect gritty reality it has shared with Mass Effect and elite special operations class career military. More politically correct fantasy based TV involves fairy tale type beings, and people considered mentally ill for believing in them, and people considered backwards, fearful and narrow minded bigots for not accepting differences, for wanting to medicate and institutionalize people who act delusional or mentally ill, maybe medicate themselves with unregulated street drugs.

Ever deal with a delusional paranoid schizophrenic who’s off their meds because they believe they are really Fae, or vesen, some god, a fallen angel, an arch angel, a saint, a vampire, Grimm or vampire slayer, trapped in some body they never asked for, etc. and just need someone to understand, accept and facilitate them drunk, stoned and/or off their meds delusional?

How about those bi polar and off their meds, because the meds suppress their true and unappreciated genius and talent? Suicidal even homicidally depressed because they are off their meds, how many of these people end up in low income neighborhoods on disability if their family isn’t well off? Are the really liberated living delusional and in borderline poverty?

Will the socially just and politically correct tell the side of conservative minorities that see their violent crime, drug abuse, murder, abortion and out of  wedlock birth rates grow as I have described in earlier posts, for reasons such as I have given, and if not, why not?

The issues cited are real and deadly serious; to marginalize, ridicule and vilify us, deny we lived our life experiences as we have lived them, because the truth is politically incorrect helps us repair this mess how?

Do you find yourself feeling threatened, do you find yourself feeling fear even at the thought of conveying our story as I have told it? Do you see the irony of feeling this way about fairly representing minorities struggling to return to the values that made us all safer, more successful and strong enough to pioneer the modern civil rights movement out of poverty and segregation?

How about going along to get along with those who would have us portrayed as ignorant, backwards, hateful, simple minded and superstitious for our now generations long struggle to return to who we were, when we were at our best, especially after the results of well intentioned novices testing social experiments with our families for something better?

If the game release is being held up to artfully work in “social justice” themes, do they include equal justice for the view point that generations of these well intentioned social experiments have done so much to generate negative change in minority and low income communities, as millions have dropped out of being responsible for themselves and the households they should head, and accepted the “minimum acceptable government buy out” for their vote?

What looked, sounded and felt good did not mean a fairy tale ending, we were not stupid or evil, a lot of what happened came from  well intentioned social experiments on imperfect systems that in many ways worked better before they were tinkered with. Few families and communities are perfect but compare what we had to the crime, violence, suffering and thug values so many have today.

Will the developers  tell the side of conservative minorities that have seen their crime, violence, drug abuse, murder, abortion and out of  wedlock birth rates evolve as I have described, for the reasons I have given in earlier posts, and if not, why not?

[Angry_Elcor]

So this thread has been hijacked into an extremist rant against human rights, or something? Seems like a smart place to try and change the world with made up statistics and gobbledygook. Not that I'd know. Who wants to read all that nonsense? This is the internet. I read three words, mock, and leave. Just like God intended.

[damienmondragon]

So this thread has been hijacked into an extremist rant against human rights, or something? Seems like a smart place to try and change the world with made up statistics and gobbledygook. Not that I'd know. Who wants to read all that nonsense? This is the internet. I read three words, mock, and leave. Just like God intended.

 

Angry Elcor,

 

You are reading the concerns of someone who was about 9 or 10 years old when the well intentioned theories and social experiments started to become popular and mainstream and I was in my early teens when they started to really take hold. I remember these years and was old enough to appreciate the beginnings of these liberating changes from the old ways of the late 50 and early 60s into the early and mid 70s, in many ways still treasured years I wish I could share with family and friends again.

Mid 70s I was getting out of college and starting an about 12 year career in social work, a government agent of change to try and help my people and other minorities make the best of the available resources to get our fair share of what our country had to offer her citizens.

A kind of unique perspective from which to watch and follow the unintended consequences of well intended social experiments. Social theories and experiments made mainstream not through scholarly articles or even the million seller paperback books that virtually nobody I knew read, but the popular culture and crude mass communication media of the day.

Little changes had big effects and side effects down the road; imagine tinkering with a time machine if the reference isn't too dated to have meaning for you.

Children don't really need their father, especially if the government will provide enough money to pay the bills. Marriage is just one option amongst a growing number of equal options.

The traditional family and marriage are outdated, one or more caring adults, even just boyfriends passing through are just as good for children.

Parenthood without commitment. Open marriages are good for the average couple.

Latch key kids are no different from children with a stay at home mom or dad, (moms aren’t that necessary.)

Breaking up communities and neighborhoods and randomly placing strangers in apartment in massive new housing projects will build large stable communities of people who care about each other like the old neighborhoods

Probably not how they were intended to be received, but basically how they hit the streets.  Who could see the far reaching unintended consequences main streaming these concepts for tens of millions of people, could have over time?

Look at the effects with the relatively crude mass communications of the times (radio, records, eventually tape cassettes, black and white,  eventually color TV, newspapers, magazines.) Look at the effect on minority communities of these well intended attempts to free people from old restrictive beliefs.

 “We should use the ability of our medium to show players the issues first hand, or give them a unique understanding of the issues and complexities by crafting game mechanics along with narrative components that result in dynamics of play that create meaning for the player in ways that other media isn’t capable of.”

Once started where does this end, what are the following steps in covertly advancing whatever next comes to falls under the heading of ‘social justice / political correctness, with the technology of 5, 10, 15, 20 years from now?

 I watched the last such social experiment going down most of my life, it’s still going on. I lived my early formative year’s pre experiment, and most of our communities were safer with a lot less crime, violence, few broken families, virtually no drug problems or gangs but established black businesses and strong traditional values back then.

We could and should be better off now than back then in so many ways. Back then our parents could not have imagined the problems we would have today amidst all the opportunities they struggled so hard and long to win.

With modern gaming technologies some propose trying to change a gamers values in ways other media are not capable of (if letting them know upfront what you are doing is likely to turn them away, don’t do it to them.)  If you do not know clearly what you are doing, don’t experiment on people.

Tell both sides equally, fairly, honestly and let the gamer decide, truth is using new com tech to convince millions to tear out what you have to try something new, untried and not fully understood is dangerous and not to be taken lightly.

Do not experiment with tearing down complex systems and values you do not yet really understand because something new looks and sounds good. Study what happened the last time it was tried as if you are going to change another time line for tens of millions of living people, and who knows how many tens of millions who might as a result die unborn.

[Angry_Elcor]

Wow. That is officially the longest rant that I've ever had addressed to me. It was like an entire essay! I didn't read it, of course. It would have eaten into my precious mocking time.

[StayFrosty05]

Damianmondragon...As a 45 year old professional Counselor with the Indigenous, dealing on a day to day basis with inter generational PTSD, substance abuse, abuse and grief and loss, I have taken the time (I don't know why) to read through all your posts in their entirety and am making it clear to you now that your rants are offensive and bigoted and very wrong in the supposed fix it ideal, in fact even more damaging within the religious context you are proposing.

This is a gaming forum, not a life rant thread, I suggest you bear that in mind and take your religious fanfare to a more approbriate Internet site, rather than clogging up where it does not belong. I have no interest in engaging further with you and so thus will not be responding to any responses you may choose to make. Good day sir.

[Lady Mortho]

Not to biased, but if everyone was bisexual, there'd less heartbreak.

[damienmondragon]

StayFrosty05, on 14 Jan 2015 - 6:11 PM, said:

Damianmondragon...As a 45 year old professional Counselor with the Indigenous, dealing on a day to day basis with inter generational PTSD, substance abuse, abuse and grief and loss, I have taken the time (I don't know why) to read through all your posts in their entirety and am making it clear to you now that your rants are offensive and bigoted and very wrong in the supposed fix it ideal, in fact even more damaging within the religious context you are proposing.

This is a gaming forum, not a life rant thread, I suggest you bear that in mind and take your religious fanfare to a more approbriate Internet site, rather than clogging up where it does not belong. I have no interest in engaging further with you and so thus will not be responding to any responses you may choose to make. Good day sir.

 

StayFrosty05….Many of us see life very differently, you need not reply, thanks for your time. This is the sexuality in character creation thread.

 

A ME4 developer at a developer conference last year proposed the art of crafting games should be used to further shape the opinions of gamers on issues of social justice, as other media cannot; the suggestion was met with a two minute standing ovation by other developers. One of the major areas highlighted was issues of sexuality using the characters in the game, and progressing beyond the take it or leave it options in earlier Mass Effect games to something more pro active.

 

Somehow sounded like not trusting the gamer/consumer to make their own choice because not enough of us were making the 'right' choice on our own. Sounded like crafting the mechanics of the game, using some of the most powerful communications technology in popular use to persuade gamers/consumers to accept something too many of us otherwise would not even look into.

 

My people have experience with what amounts  to social experiments intended to improve life for anyone with the courage to question and experiment with abandoning their old restrictive values and ways for a new, modern and liberating morality. A morality and values set that said basically question everything, try new things, if the old ways don't work to your liking, something radically different might. Life is short, youth shorter yet, experiment while you can.

 

Few appreciated what these social experiments would do to our families and communities, our violence and crime rates, out of wedlock birth rates, single motherhood and abortion rates. Many of us were more open to experiment with dramatic change, throwing away anything old and restricting to try something new to make life better, but every other community that followed us down the same road is experiencing lesser but very similar results, so maybe this is relevant to the rest of you.

 

Or do you deny this as ignorant bigotry? How do you explain so much sudden and dramatic change in minority communities as so much opportunity opened up for minorities? Did we throw away too much too soon, too much responsibility, hard work ethic, self control and restraint, for pleasure seeking? A lot of us who were not only there but did it think so, ("seemed like a great idea, felt good in the beginning, last thing I remember was screaming "OH ****!!")

 

Were we too quick to toss traditional and religious values for secular self indulgence and a sexual revolution? In your reality this is probably blasphemy. In mine I walk once safe and relatively prosperous minority communities that members of my family were proud to live in, places that they helped make that way even back in the bad old days of legal segregation and racism.

 

Somehow they managed, prospered and dared throw off their oppression non-violently, though outnumbered, in the homeland of the greatest super power the world has ever seen; they were not stupid, incompetent or lazy. Many of us have long asked what happened, how it happened in the face of so much opportunity for so many, and we think we know, but somehow with such powerful mass communication it is hard to be heard.

 

On this Martin Luther King Day the face of our civil rights movement presented to the world is the likes of Al Sharpton and so called responsible adults encouraging our young people to march and chant for violence in the streets and to provoke violent confrontations with law enforcement.  Law enforcement are policy enforcement, a distraction from the policy makers and opinion shapers who use such conflict to draw attention from holding them accountable for the policies they support and could change for better or worst. Why do so many office holders turn a blind eye if not wink and nod to such demonstrators, and seemingly use policy enforcers and well intentioned activists as human shields and distractions, in the spirit of Hamas?

 

How many voices of the black community do you or the rest of the world know of who are calling for a return to the winning tactics of Reverend King and focusing on non violently  holding accountable the public policy makers and public opinion shapers? Such voices do exists, we are denounced for being black conservatives, conservative as were Reverend King and just about all minority clergy and foot soldier local activists of the day, (our churches were based on traditional biblical values, Have a safe and meaningful Martin Luther King Day.)

 

We argue that tinkering with complicated social systems you do not really understand can have lasting side effects for millions in the experiment, and many more by-standers and following generations. I question whether this side of the story will be portrayed equally favorably, if even portrayed at all, given the pressure most everywhere else to silence those who 'hinder progress'.

 

I know I am not alone in asking when will we learn  that using the most powerful mass communication tools available to lead possibly millions people to discard what we know for what we hope to find is dangerous, especially if you cannot learn from the history of similar attempts. "Seemed like a great idea, felt good in the beginning…

[damienmondragon]

Wow. That is officially the longest rant that I've ever had addressed to me. It was like an entire essay! I didn't read it, of course. It would have eaten into my precious mocking time.

Mock on.

[damienmondragon]

Lady Mortho, on 14 Jan 2015 - 6:25 PM, said:

Not to biased, but if everyone was bisexual, there'd less heartbreak.

Lady Mortho,

 

I do not know if you belong to a minority or not, but imagine if you do your people struggling into main stream acceptance as did mine using non violent civil disobedience in the face of violent armed adversaries who had gotten away with murdering and torturing your people to intimidate then into compliance for generations. Imagine your leader and your peoples' non violent struggle so inspired the world that he or she not only earned a Nobel peace prize, but in time his or her birth date became a national holiday for which the birth date holidays of two of our greatest presidents are merged to become President's Day because we could not manage another national holiday.

 

Imagine your tactics involving focusing public attention on those elected or appointed to public office who can change public policy that can affect your people for better or worse and are so effective that many of the country's most respected and influential people feel not only comfortable supporting your efforts but growing expectations from the public to do so. Then imagine the media starts focusing on activists who promote violent confrontations and provoking violent confrontations with the police, while increasingly ignoring the old traditional leaders of your movement who practice what has worked so well.

 

As the media makes celebrities of those who advocate violence that ultimately leads to rioting, arson and looting by people increasingly coming to be presented as your movement , your greatest leader is assassinated, soon after those who follow his example are largely ignored and the impression given those who follow is intimidation tactics and violence gets you influence and results, in time such people and the thug tactics of the most 'colorful' will become the face of your movement when most of the world thinks of your people and their grievances.

 

Imagine some of the colorful characters who cannot lead in the streets assume leadership position promoting values and ideologies that discourage commitment and sacrifice for others and encourage thug values and behavior. Violence, vengeance, prison survival class aggressive verging on predatory behavior. They use pop culture and entertainment media from music and video to movies to promote a take nothing off nobody, strike first if you can thug culture that for many becomes the face of your community presented even glamorized to the rest of the world.

 

Your violent crime, substance abuse and relationship problem rates soar as well as divorce, broken families, single mothers, abortion and maybe your suicide rate as well. This too becomes a face of your community to the outside world, the people who stand by the values that spare most of those who follow them from becoming a statistic, these leaders are ignored as not news worthy, celebrity, respect and influence come from being a bad boy or girl.

 

You think those who struggled and sacrificed to give your people a chance the flourish and prosper would go along to get along with this, if you shared their dream what would you do? What if the majority of your people agreed but were intimidated by those into thug culture who regard them as weak sell outs who undermine the respect they earn for your people?

 

What would you think of those in your community who argue that if outsiders want to use the latest com tech to promote or glorify the values that oppose yours,  would you argue they should also fairly represent your side of the story? The above is not the perfect representation of where I'm coming from. But maybe it helps those with open minds understand something rarely considered in their life experience.

 

Some of you who have responded to my posts have helped me understand how far what I and those like me is from the life experience of many if not most who read my posts, I thank you all for the insight.