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Writing failures in the Rannoch arc (by AssaultSloth)


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#226
Sir DeLoria

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Children too young to care for themselves would die if no parrents are around to help them, all that would be needed is that the Geth don't help them either.They wouldn't need to kill unarmed babies since they would die anyway, and those who can take care of themselves were likely in posession of a gun. Out of fear it's easy to see how they would try to shoot Geth that killed their parrents, who in turn tried to kill Geth because they were ordered to or because they were scared.It would quickly become a wildfire that spreads by itself.


Very unlikely, considering the fact that the Quarians were very peaceful and civilian armament would've been rare. I doubt that first of all most of the survivors would be children and that survivors would fight back against a foe that outnumbers them by a large magnitude. Some might fight back, but to expect that from everyone of the multiple million survivors is ridiculous. Quarians are barely alien and humans wouldn't act that way either.

#227
Mrs_Stick

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Lets all agree that the Quarian/Geth situation is grey at best. There are those that view the Geth as nothing but machines and believe the Quarians are right. There are those that believe the Geth are innocent victims. And then there are some that would rather they both stop fighting and just learn from the past. 

 

That being said. They did force it down our throats that the Geth are victims. As much as I like legion as a character I will not side with them over the Quarian's. I will always try for peace because at that point in the game it is unknown what the end is (at least for Shepard) I will always pick destroy even if in my headcanon my Shepard is sad to do so. 

 

Neither side is 100% right or 100% wrong. It was left very open for us to decide. 


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#228
shodiswe

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Very unlikely, considering the fact that the Quarians were very peaceful and civilian armament would've been rare. I doubt that first of all most of the survivors would be children and that survivors would fight back against a foe that outnumbers them by a large magnitude. Some might fight back, but to expect that from everyone of the multiple million survivors is ridiculous. Quarians are barely alien and humans wouldn't act that way either.


There is nothing that indicates they were more peaceful than others, maybe more peacful than the Krogans, I guess.
We know nothing about civilian armament, it's also possible the government could have provided plenty of armaments for the civilians when they got "scared", just like they did in ME3 when the civilians and children were conscripted as cheap cannonfoder. They don't seem peaceful in ME2 or 3.

Also, like mentioned many times before, Rannochs environment was badly damaged by the war and the geth have spent 300 years restoring it and it still isn't completely restored. Given the weaker than humans and weaker than the galactic average immunesystem they likely had severe health issues from contaminated air, water and food. Nevermind a lack of food since a lot of the food production would have been suspended.
Geth workers drafted for the war would have stopped produsing grain and food stuff for Quarians, the Quarians likely had problems managing agricultural needs. Bilions could have starved. There was likely a severe lack of medical services and medication. With the military taking priority just like they do in the Migrant fleet.

So, we got:

Starvation and malnutrition.
weak immunesystem and contaminated air/water.
Likely lacking medical services and medication.
A war where people are shooting and bombing each other.
The whole planet is a battleground, it's global, it's even happening on other colonised planets.
Not enough capacity to airlift billions of people of planet or buy a ticket elsewhere.
A lot of civilian crafts were likely commandered by the military for their campaign.
Secondary casulties where civilians and children are killed when forts and bunkers are bombed, gased or nuked.
The Civilian population would be less likely to have had protective combat suits back on those days, the military had the best environmental and protective armor. It's common that more civilians die in a war than military personel.

//
The Iraq war bodycount forexample, a war in which "smart weapons were used" that were supposed to keep civilian losses low;

Documented civilian deaths from violence
123,180 – 137,063
Total violent deaths including combatants
188,000
More than 70% of the casulties are still civilians.
///
Same with WW2, most of the dead were civilians, and most peopel died from famine or diseases.
///

In this case it was still possible to get food and medicine for the people even if supplies did suffer, but the whole planet Earth wasn't disabled and unable to provide supplies. It was possible to get supplies. Immagine if the whole planet had been bombed, nuked, was set on fire and all agriculture and roduction was halted, nevermind chemical and bioligical contamination.

On Rannoch
Most people likely died from starvation and diseases, contamination, something like 90%.
9% might have died as a result of the armed conflict and direct weaponsfire. 90% of these were likely Civilian hiding with or "protected" by the Quarian military.

Then lets say 1% escaped the planet. Most of those were likely military, with a few civilian refugees that survived the lack of food, medical care and inferior protection against infections, and contamination.

The people escaping would have been the military personel that eventualy formed the military force of the flotilla and the Admiralty that would rule the Quarians for the following 300 years, and a few lucky civilians, some of whom might have had relatives in the military or influential political figures.

How would you expect billions of people to fare if food production is put to a complete halt, the air and drinkingwater supply becoems contaminated(chemical, biological, radioactive). The population has a weaker than normal immunesystem. Medication and medical services are likely to be compromised.
I would expect an enormous deathtoll even without a shooting war going on in that situation.

Famines have killed off millions of people and large percentages of the population in the past without there being a war that halts production to 0.

The Geth didn't need to worry about famine as long as they had some power generation. Medical issues were also minimal as long as they had spare parts or alternative platforms/servers to transfer to if they got damaged.

#229
BigglesFlysAgain

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The Geth either killed the remaining Quarians on Rannoch or did nothing to stop them all dying. Same end result Billions dead, whether they executed every last one or left them to self destruct it does not really matter in the end. They are dead.



#230
MassivelyEffective0730

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Lets all agree that the Quarian/Geth situation is grey at best. There are those that view the Geth as nothing but machines and believe the Quarians are right. There are those that believe the Geth are innocent victims. And then there are some that would rather they both stop fighting and just learn from the past. 

 

That being said. They did force it down our throats that the Geth are victims. As much as I like legion as a character I will not side with them over the Quarian's. I will always try for peace because at that point in the game it is unknown what the end is (at least for Shepard) I will always pick destroy even if in my headcanon my Shepard is sad to do so. 

 

Neither side is 100% right or 100% wrong. It was left very open for us to decide. 

 

I disagree. To me, the Geth/Quarian conflict is pretty black and white. I do indeed see the Geth as 100% in the right, and I do indeed blame 100% of everything on the Quarians. 

 

This isn't how I should say it should be. I'm with Deinon and others who think it should have been more complex and written differently.

 

I'm saying that as it is presented in the games, I have a lot of difficulty finding blame to assign to the Geth at all over the entire issue. That doesn't mean I'm not unsatisfied with some of their conduct, but I do think that in the terms of what is presented in their narrative existence, I don't hold them to be the problem. I hold the Quarians to be the offending party in all cases.



#231
von uber

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100%? Blimey.



#232
Mrs_Stick

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I disagree. To me, the Geth/Quarian conflict is pretty black and white. I do indeed see the Geth as 100% in the right, and I do indeed blame 100% of everything on the Quarians. 

 

This isn't how I should say it should be. I'm with Deinon and others who think it should have been more complex and written differently.

 

I'm saying that as it is presented in the games, I have a lot of difficulty finding blame to assign to the Geth at all over the entire issue. That doesn't mean I'm not unsatisfied with some of their conduct, but I do think that in the terms of what is presented in their narrative existence, I don't hold them to be the problem. I hold the Quarians to be the offending party in all cases.

 To be fair I did not say they were 50/50. I dock 1% from the Geth for asking the reapers to help. That will make the Geth 99% right I will give that 1% remaining to the Quarian's because I can understand their desperation. 

 

I do not harbor any love for the Quarian's. As much as I want to I will not be responsible for the death of an entire species (ending not with standing)



#233
von uber

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I assume therefore you always go for peace?

#234
Mrs_Stick

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I assume therefore you always go for peace?

Depends on my mood the day I am playing and get to that point. 99% of the time the Quarians get blown up.

However I am not responsible for them dying they are to stubborn to listen. So case in point I did not kill them off. 



#235
MassivelyEffective0730

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I assume therefore you always go for peace?

 

I do. If only because I now have the assets the Quarians can give. I don't care for them personally, but at least they can be useful. As fodder or as ships on line or growing food for the war effort.



#236
von uber

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Depends on my mood the day I am playing and get to that point. 99% of the time the Quarians get blown up.
However I am not responsible for them dying they are to stubborn to listen. So case in point I did not kill them off.


That's a bit semantics isn't it? Doesn't the same work in reverse?

@massive - I have the same approach, I get peace for the asset count. Then red ring the xbots.

#237
BigglesFlysAgain

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Any Shepard interested in amassing forces to defeat the reapers should not concern themselves with the rights and wrongs of a conflict predating human spaceflight, but rather push for an outcome that maximises the forces available. If peace is not an option then they should pick the side that will come out of it with a larger fleet. Of course very few players will play like that (me included).

 

 

Any issues that people see most likely come from making the resolution of a major conflict come down to the wave of the players hand, and the resolution being immediate and total. This makes for a tense and exciting moment in the game, but perhaps one that could leave you unsatisfied afterwards, with the magic buttons required to make the knife edge situation come about in the first place.

 

As for the Quarians themselves however much blame you can point either way, neither side deserves to be wiped out.

 

I see them as tragic figures, victims of unilateral actions by a few in charge, their longstanding "act as one, or die as many" policy being the thing that can end up being their downfall. On the other hand they do have a civilian government the "conclave" that presumably supported the war, as if the admirals overuled them, then by law the admirals have to resign, in which case there would be new admirals in me3 which is not the case.

 

 

Either way few average Quarians will have had shepards experience of both sides of the conflict, and would jump at the chance to retake their homeworld from what they believe are murderous machines who destroyed their civilisation and doomed them to a constant struggle to survive.

 

 

Both sides need some time out on the galactic naughty step

 

 

Some of the Quarian hate out there almost feels like star treks Q at the encounter at farpoint trial...

 

A grievously savage race indeed



#238
DeinonSlayer

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Depends on my mood the day I am playing and get to that point. 99% of the time the Quarians get blown up.

However I am not responsible for them dying they are to stubborn to listen. So case in point I did not kill them off. 

Bullshit.

 

The problem isn't them being "too stubborn to listen" when Shepard chooses not to tell them that 1) the upload is occurring in the first place, and 2) the Geth are willing to honor a ceasefire for the first time in their entire history (if and only if Legion is present - the VI makes it perfectly clear it intends to kill them all). The Quarians are acting on the information available to them, nothing more - and history tells them the Geth will behave as the VI does. If you're going to to make an informed decision (and you are told by two people exactly what will happen beforehand), the least you can do is own the consequences.



#239
Mrs_Stick

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Bullshit.

 

The problem isn't them being "too stubborn to listen" when Shepard chooses not to tell them that 1) the upload is occurring in the first place, and 2) the Geth are willing to honor a ceasefire for the first time in their entire history (if and only if Legion is present). If you're going to to make an informed decision (and you are told by two people exactly what will happen beforehand), the least you can do is own the consequences.

It is not my fault that freakin Gerral will not listen to Tali. Yes her and Legion are in all but 1 of my playthroughs.



#240
Mrs_Stick

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That's a bit semantics isn't it? Doesn't the same work in reverse?

@massive - I have the same approach, I get peace for the asset count. Then red ring the xbots.

 Yes it would work in reverse. 



#241
DeinonSlayer

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It is not my fault that freakin Gerral will not listen to Tali. Yes her and Legion are in all but 1 of my playthroughs.

Tali relays neither of these facts to Gerrel. She chokes, specifically because the writers wanted to place the decision in Shepard's hands.

 

The Quarians are more interested in survival than in destroying the Geth. When informed that they can survive without destroying them (and will be destroyed if they attempt to), they stand down.

 

I, personally, think the entire scene is a writing mess. Why do neither Tali nor Raan tell the fleet what's happening (because they want Shepard to decide). Why can't we question the safety and philosophical reversal inherent in the use of the Reaper code? Why do neither Tali nor Raan intervene when Shepard throws in his lot with the Geth? Where is the second squadmate this whole time? Etc.



#242
Nightwriter

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Lets all agree that the Quarian/Geth situation is grey at best. There are those that view the Geth as nothing but machines and believe the Quarians are right. There are those that believe the Geth are innocent victims. And then there are some that would rather they both stop fighting and just learn from the past. 

 

That being said. They did force it down our throats that the Geth are victims. As much as I like legion as a character I will not side with them over the Quarian's. I will always try for peace because at that point in the game it is unknown what the end is (at least for Shepard) I will always pick destroy even if in my headcanon my Shepard is sad to do so. 

 

Neither side is 100% right or 100% wrong. It was left very open for us to decide. 

 

It was only really grayish in ME1, then tipped steadily and markedly in the geth's favor as the series progressed. Seemed like they were trying too hard to make the true geth sympathetic. Ended up making the quarians look bad.

 

Still don't think the quarians were 100% the villains here though.



#243
MassivelyEffective0730

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Bullshit.

 

The problem isn't them being "too stubborn to listen" when Shepard chooses not to tell them that 1) the upload is occurring in the first place, and 2) the Geth are willing to honor a ceasefire for the first time in their entire history (if and only if Legion is present - the VI makes it perfectly clear it intends to kill them all). The Quarians are acting on the information available to them, nothing more - and history tells them the Geth will behave as the VI does. If you're going to to make an informed decision (and you are told by two people exactly what will happen beforehand), the least you can do is own the consequences.

 

I take BW's intent there on this; The Quarians own overzealousness got the better of them and they did it to themselves. Personally, I think their deaths are a favor to the universe and a correction of a failure of evolution. 

 

To be frank, I do indeed believe that they were meant to be 'too stubborn to listen'. And I view them as such. As I tell Joker, they fought me at every corner and turn and refused to listen to reason. They reaped from the seeds they sowed.



#244
Mrs_Stick

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Tali relays neither of these facts to Gerrel. She chokes, specifically because the writers wanted to place the decision in Shepard's hands.

 

The Quarians are more interested in survival than in destroying the Geth. When informed that they can survive without destroying them (and will be destroyed if they attempt to), they stand down.

 

I, personally, think the entire scene is a writing mess. Why do neither Tali nor Raan tell the fleet what's happening (because they want Shepard to decide). Why can't we question the safety and philosophical reversal inherent in the use of the Reaper code? Why do neither Tali nor Raan intervene when Shepard throws in his lot with the Geth? Where is the second squadmate this whole time? Etc.

I will agree that Tali needed to step up and try to stop Shepard when siding with the Geth. Yes there are many points that should be addressed in the writing of this scene. Seriously why are they letting Shepard decide their fate in the first place? I still believe that the Geth are more in the right than the Quarian's. That opinion will never change. 



#245
DeinonSlayer

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I take BW's intent there on this; The Quarians own overzealousness got the better of them and they did it to themselves. Personally, I think their deaths are a favor to the universe and a correction of a failure of evolution. 

 

To be frank, I do indeed believe that they were meant to be 'too stubborn to listen'. And I view them as such. 

I find the bolded above a bit disturbing, but it's small peas compared to your earlier "the galaxy is weaker than the Reapers and thus deserves to lose to them" thing.



#246
MassivelyEffective0730

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I find the bolded above a bit disturbing, but it's small peas compared to your earlier "the galaxy is weaker than the Reapers and thus deserves to lose to them" thing.

 

Eh, the only thing I ever learned about bullies from being bullied is that it's a hell of a lot better to be the bully than to be the bullied.

 

IMO, it builds character.



#247
DeinonSlayer

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I will agree that Tali needed to step up and try to stop Shepard when siding with the Geth. Yes there are many points that should be addressed in the writing of this scene. Seriously why are they letting Shepard decide their fate in the first place? I still believe that the Geth are more in the right than the Quarian's. That opinion will never change. 

I see it as a choice between a three-hundred-year-old war criminal (remorseful or not) who is only offering allegiance in the face of imminent destruction after siding with the enemy multiple times (never mind that I'd trust the Reaper code itself about as far as I can throw Heretic Station), and a proven ally who, while not entirely disciplined (which would need to be addressed), is of comparable utility (albeit on the logistics front (which Hackett specifically requested) instead of combat).

 

I side with the Quarians when I have to choose. When I metagame that the code won't turn their entire fleet against me, I make peace.

 

@Massively, who was that guy who rhetorically jumped sides multiple times towards the start of the Iraq war? Muqtada al-Sadr?



#248
MassivelyEffective0730

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I see it as a choice between a three-hundred-year-old war criminal (remorseful or not) who is only offering allegiance in the face of imminent destruction after siding with the enemy multiple times (never mind that I'd trust the Reaper code about as far as I can throw Heretic Station), and a proven ally who, while not entirely disciplined, is of comparable utility (albeit on the logistics front (which Hackett specifically requested) instead of combat).

 

I disagree with your assessment. Logistically, any Geth ship can perform just as well as the Quarians, and they each have the benefit of being more stable than the rickshaws the Quarians call spaceships. Plus, they can all fight, whereas the Quarians can't. The Quarians are not a better choice logistically. I would never say the Quarians are of comparable utility to the Geth, in any field. Any way you slice it, the only real purpose I'd see for the Quarians is bullet sponges. 

 

As for siding with the enemy, I blame the Quarians completely for that one. And I don't view Legion as a war criminal. Even if he was, I'd rather have him on my side than a moron. I'd trust the Reaper code. Why not? If you can reduce the potential for it being hacked, it's a weapon to be utilized. 

 

Post-war in my fic, the Quarians get to face the benefits of screwing up with the Geth 300 years previously. Time for legal sanctions against their species. I'd say 300 years of minimal trade and a DMZ and forced disarmament of their species sounds about right.



#249
ImaginaryMatter

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Things seem to be getting a little intense here.

 

How about we talk about heroism and what it means to all of us?


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#250
Mrs_Stick

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Things seem to be getting a little intense here.

 

How about we talk about heroism and what it means to all of us?

That does not help the amount of information floating in me head  :P That still requires me to think.