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Writing failures in the Rannoch arc (by AssaultSloth)


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#251
DeinonSlayer

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I disagree with your assessment. Logistically, any Geth ship can perform just as well as the Quarians, and they each have the benefit of being more stable than the rickshaws the Quarians call spaceships. Plus, they can all fight, whereas the Quarians can't. The Quarians are not a better choice logistically. I would never say the Quarians are of comparable utility to the Geth, in any field. Any way you slice it, the only real purpose I'd see for the Quarians is bullet sponges.

As for siding with the enemy, I blame the Quarians completely for that one. And I don't view Legion as a war criminal. Even if he was, I'd rather have him on my side than a moron. I'd trust the Reaper code. Why not? If you can reduce the potential for it being hacked, it's a weapon to be utilized.

Post-war in my fic, the Quarians get to face the benefits of screwing up with the Geth 300 years previously. Time for legal sanctions against their species. I'd say 300 years of minimal trade and a DMZ and forced disarmament of their species sounds about right.

It's entirely on you who you choose to trust. I wouldn't trust an entity which spent centuries killing organics on sight and refusing all communications, spent two years ignoring its own splinter faction, briefly changed its mind, then immediately reneged and ultimately sided with the Reapers when things got hot. If they had built their dyson sphere somewhere else, I don't believe any of this would have happened. I'm confused, though, because it seems you accept anything the Geth do or have done in the name of survival, but do not make the same allowances for the other side.
 
Geth ships have no life support systems (and if we go by ME2, no gravity, but the writers violated their own lore left and right on that front. Why would a Geth fighter need a pilot with a body sitting in a cockpit manipulating controls?). Their capacity for transporting organics is limited without taking the time for a major design overhaul.
 
The people who screwed up with the Geth 300 years previously have been dead for generations, and have faced legal sanctions ever since. On what basis would you punish their descendants for what their ancestors did?

#252
MassivelyEffective0730

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It's entirely on you who you choose to trust. I wouldn't trust an entity which spent centuries killing organics on sight and refusing all communications, spent two years ignoring its own splinter faction, and sided with the Reapers when things got hot. If they had built their dyson sphere somewhere else, I don't believe any of this would have happened. I'm confused, though, because it seems you accept anything the Geth do or have done in the name of survival, but do not make the same allowances for the other side.
 
Geth ships have no life support systems (and if we go by ME2, no gravity, but the writers violated their own lore left and right on that front. Why would a Geth fighter need a pilot with a body sitting in a cockpit manipulating controls?). Their capacity for transporting organics is limited without taking the time for a major design overhaul.
 
The people who screwed up with the Geth 300 years previously have been dead for generations, and have faced legal sanctions ever since. On what basis would you punish their descendants for what their ancestors did?

 

The other side was the cause of the Geth's actions. The Geth had to account for the other sides stupidity. Everything the Geth do is because of the actions of the other side. They react. Why did the Geth break off all communication from the galaxy and hold them in a rather contemptible view? Not hard to do when the organics are dead set against you, even destroying you simply for existing out of the fear that you're going to turn on them on some irrational basis of... well nothing. Why are the Quarians or other races afraid that once the Geth start asking questions about their existence, it will automatically lead to a terminator style conclusion of purging organic life from the galaxy? What would make the Geth care about organics when the organics have never held them in any regard? Why do the Geth have to suffer for the idiocy of the Quarians? Why are you upset about them building their dyson sphere over Tikkun? It's not going to somehow catastrophically impact the ecosystem of Rannoch. You have no information about the dyson sphere beyond that it was being built. 

 

I don't know about that, since it was portrayed otherwise. How difficult would it be to actually fill their air with oxygen (and the ventilation ducts the ship has)?

 

The same legal sanctions that apply to states and corporations, not individuals. The sanctions against a state don't go away just because the people running it go out of power.



#253
Mrs_Stick

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It's entirely on you who you choose to trust. I wouldn't trust an entity which spent centuries killing organics on sight and refusing all communications, spent two years ignoring its own splinter faction, 
 
 

The same could be said for the Alliance and Cerberus. I look at the Geth and the Heritics this way. In organics we have different opinions and different methods (Alliance and Cerberus) Yet in ME the Alliance has never taken any real action to get rid of this splinter human group until ME3. So why would the Geth attack their own for having a different view point. And why would they tell any organic about them seeing as imo no organic would listen to them in the first place because of what they are. 

Legion tells Shepard because he believe you are different from other organics. Again this is all my own opinion.



#254
BigglesFlysAgain

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I don't see why the geth fighter needed air or atmosphere (or had them at all), given the Normandy squad came equiped with helmets and air breathers for that mission, and continue to wear them in the fighter.

 

Its probably a bit silly for the fighters to have controls or a luggage compartment, but it could always be used to deploy small squads of troops.

 

 

The Geth wrongly believed they could have a clean break with the heretics and go their seperate ways, legion is very shocked to find out they spy on the main geth, during the heretic station mission.



#255
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Ah ****! What if Harbinger used Legion to get to us? The OP got me thinking an now I'm believing once again skepticism and genocide is the answer in all dilemmas dealing with the rachni, krogan, geth and batarians. An I was just starting to feel better. Now I feel stupid an definitely have to replay the trilogy.



#256
Mrs_Stick

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Ah ****! What if Harbinger used Legion to get to us? The OP got me thinking an now I'm believing once again skepticism and genocide is the answer in all dilemmas dealing with the rachni, krogan, geth and batarians. An I was just starting to feel better. Now I feel stupid an definitely have to replay the trilogy.

I feel like I should play my evil shep again and just kill everything.



#257
sH0tgUn jUliA

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However, I'd chalk that plot hole up by saying that the Qurians helped themselves into that problem. The facts are known that the Qurians kept attacking, when they thought they could win. The Geth thought they should be left alone, did anyone listen to Legion in ME2? Thus causing massive loses in the population, as such, they did not learn to stop throwing themselves at the Geth. Heck the Quarins even killed half of the population because they helped the GETH. They tried to take care of the children and people left on Rannorch but they did not known, how too they where still children that were growing.. They cut themselves off due to them thinking this would stop the Qurians from coming after them again.

 

No. That is so wrong. From the codex: After the quarian government declared martial law on Rannoch, those who sympathized with the geth were outnumbered, and an indeterminate number of them were either detained or killed.

 

Note that it doesn't say killed. It says detained OR killed. Nor does it say half their population. Talk about hyperbole. You're writing like they killed over 1 billion of their own people. That's preposterous. 



#258
sH0tgUn jUliA

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He does in fact mention that a lot of them died due to starvation and injuries suffered during the war. He doesn't say anything about killing them.

 

If the geth cared so much about them why didn't they feed them?



#259
DeinonSlayer

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The other side was the cause of the Geth's actions. The Geth had to account for the other sides stupidity. Everything the Geth do is because of the actions of the other side. They react. Why did the Geth break off all communication from the galaxy and hold them in a rather contemptible view? Not hard to do when the organics are dead set against you, even destroying you simply for existing out of the fear that you're going to turn on them on some irrational basis of... well nothing. Why are the Quarians or other races afraid that once the Geth start asking questions about their existence, it will automatically lead to a terminator style conclusion of purging organic life from the galaxy? What would make the Geth care about organics when the organics have never held them in any regard? Why do the Geth have to suffer for the idiocy of the Quarians?

AI was already outlawed by the Council at the time. This would have been a huge influence on the Quarians' course of action (we see what the Turians did at relay 314, Anderson recounts what the Council was willing to do to stop the Batarian AI research project (his mission with Saren)). Computer experts the galaxy over believed an AI would be capable of subverting the IT infrastructure on which society depended (the technological apocalypse Gavin Archer refers to). I've seen the argument that the Geth are not accountable for indiscriminately killing off the Quarians because they weren't really conscious of what they were doing (basically, that the Quarians as a species should rightfully suffer for the Geth's idiocy). The flip side of that is that the Quarians were not aware they were destroying a self-realized AI; rather, a network of VI's which were beginning to show the traits.

The loss of 99% of their population in such a short time seems evidence enough that the Quarians were right to fear what the Geth were capable of doing to them. Their failure was in their assessment of Geth motives prior to issuing the shutdown order. But can you blame them, really? How safe would someone feel knowing some entity could drop their aircar out of the sky tomorrow just to see what it looks like? Consider the example of Jarrahe Station in ME2: refraining from aggression towards an AI/rogue VI does not guarantee your safety any more than it would with a wild animal.

The Quarians were replacing much of their military hardware (and front-line troops) with Geth platforms ("created as tools of labor and war"). Honestly, what do you think we'd do if the computers in charge of our nuclear arsenal started deviating from their programming in any way?

Nothing good can come from reducing solar output. The only thing we don't know is how much they ultimately would have blocked off. To repeat what I said on page one, I can understand why the Geth were wary of letting the Quarians near their dyson sphere. This isn't an unreasonable concern - self-interest would dictate that they deny the Quarians access to Rannoch in order to protect the sphere, but this in turn (particularly when the Reapers came knocking) puts the Quarians' survival at risk and increases their desperation, thus the likelihood of conflict.

Really, the Geth couldn't have picked a stupider place to build it. Even without the Reapers lighting a fire under the Quarians' collective asses, what did they expect? Unless the Quarians use (illegal) genetic self-modification to eliminate their dependency on their native plant life, they will have to come back if they're going to survive. Because of the Geth's own isolationism, even in the face of organic attempts at outreach, the only option the Quarians are left with is to reclaim it by force because the Geth have given no indication whatsoever that they can be reasoned with. You invoke the AI ban as reason for the Geth to suspect organics, but that door swings both ways.

If they built their sphere elsewhere, Rannoch could have been returned without any risk to the sphere.

I don't know about that, since it was portrayed otherwise. How difficult would it be to actually fill their air with oxygen (and the ventilation ducts the ship has)?

There's more to life support than simply pumping in oxygen (assuming their ships are even airtight to begin with). Long story short, it'd be a major overhaul.

The same legal sanctions that apply to states and corporations, not individuals. The sanctions against a state don't go away just because the people running it go out of power.

Eh. The way I figure it, when Haestrom's sun cooks off they'll be severed from the galactic community for centuries or millenia to come anyway. Levying sanctions on them post-war when they've had no hostility with Council races just seems vindictive for its own sake.

Which brings up another bad writing point - what the hell was Hackett talking about, Gerrel "causing trouble on the Turian border?" This is never elaborated on or alluded to anywhere else. The writers couldn't be bothered to mention the genocide, the centuries of isolationism, inaction against the heretics or any of the rest of the points detracting from the Geth; they didn't mention the aid the Quarians provided to the Turians in the wake of the Taetrus Blast (as established in Cerberus Daily News), but they spontaneously made up things like this? Just seems like they were further stacking the deck.

EDIT: Holy crap, that got longer that I meant it to.
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#260
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Mass Effect 3 was a great place to start. New players were supposed to pick the cuddly geth over the irritating quarians so they'd be put in the bind at the end when faced with Destroy - "including the Geth." The only purpose in that would be so they would be more inclined to pick someone's beloved synthesis ending. Remember that the reapers were the good guys, while Shepard was the villain. That was the plot twist.


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#261
AlexMBrennan

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It's entirely on you who you choose to trust

You don't have to trust anyone because you see how the quarians react when facing a fight they cannot win, and where their deaths cannot possibly achieve anything: They all throw their lives away. The only way the Morning war could have ended without all the quarians dying would be if the geth had allowed themselves to be killed by the enemy. 



#262
DeinonSlayer

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You don't have to trust anyone because you see how the quarians react when facing a fight they cannot win, and where their deaths cannot possibly achieve anything: They all throw their lives away. The only way the Morning war could have ended without all the quarians dying would be if the geth had allowed themselves to be killed by the enemy.

They keep fighting as they're being slaughtered because they're exposed, they can't run (according to the codex entry describing the fight, they're hit from behind by a second fleet - it's entirely different from the cinematic), and they have no reason to believe they'll be spared if they stop. Shepard chose not to tell them that - for all they know, another Reaper backup came online.

How the modern war goes down gives us exactly zero bearing on how the morning war played out. The situations are completely different simply by virtue of one being in space and the other on the ground. In the modern war, the vast, vast majority of the Quarian population is holed up in the cargo holds of their ships because there was nowhere else for them to go - leaving the fleet means meandering through a galaxy crawling with Reapers with no food, no destination, and no military protection or coordination. You can destroy a ship and kill everyone on it instantly, even if only a few dozen of the hundreds on board were taking any part in the fighting (that said, I acknowledge a civilian ship firing on you is a valid military target).

Take those same people and dump them on the ground, though, as they were in the Morning War, and you won't see every last one of them scrambling for the nearest rifle ("The civilian fleet didn't want this war"). People who don't want to get blown up are going to try to get the hell away from the fighting, which isn't an option if you live in a metal cubicle in the cargo hold of a ship in space. Your assumption that the Quarians behaved on the ground the same way their ships behave in space is unfounded.

#263
Mrs_Stick

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AI was already outlawed by the Council at the time. This would have been a huge influence on the Quarians' course of action (we see what the Turians did at relay 314, Anderson recounts what the Council was willing to do to stop the Batarian AI research project (his mission with Saren)). Computer experts the galaxy over believed an AI would be capable of subverting the IT infrastructure on which society depended (the technological apocalypse Gavin Archer refers to). I've seen the argument that the Geth are not accountable for indiscriminately killing off the Quarians because they weren't really conscious of what they were doing (basically, that the Quarians as a species should rightfully suffer for the Geth's idiocy). The flip side of that is that the Quarians were not aware they were destroying a self-realized AI; rather, a network of VI's which were beginning to show the traits.

The loss of 99% of their population in such a short time seems evidence enough that the Quarians were right to fear what the Geth were capable of doing to them. Their failure was in their assessment of Geth motives prior to issuing the shutdown order. But can you blame them, really? How safe would someone feel knowing some entity could drop their aircar out of the sky tomorrow just to see what it looks like?

The Quarians were replacing much of their military hardware (and front-line troops) with Geth platforms ("created as tools of labor and war"). Honestly, what do you think we'd do if the computers in charge of our nuclear arsenal started deviating from their programming in any way?

Nothing good can come from reducing solar output. The only thing we don't know is how much they ultimately would have blocked off. To repeat what I said on page one, I can understand why the Geth were wary of letting the Quarians near their dyson sphere. This isn't an unreasonable concern - self-interest would dictate that they deny the Quarians access to Rannoch in order to protect the sphere, but this in turn (particularly when the Reapers came knocking) puts the Quarians' survival at risk and increases their desperation, thus the likelihood of conflict.

Really, the Geth couldn't have picked a stupider place to build it. Even without the Reapers lighting a fire under the Quarians' collective asses, what did they expect? Unless the Quarians use (illegal) genetic self-modification to eliminate their dependency on their native plant life, they will have to come back if they're going to survive. Because of the Geth's own isolationism, even in the face of organic attempts at outreach, the only option the Quarians are left with is to reclaim it by force because the Geth have given no indication whatsoever that they can be reasoned with. You invoke the AI ban as reason for the Geth to suspect organics, but that door swings both ways.

If they built their sphere elsewhere, Rannoch could have been returned without any risk to the sphere.
 
There's more to life support than simply pumping in oxygen (assuming their ships are even airtight to begin with). Long story short, it'd be a major overhaul.
 
Eh. The way I figure it, when Haestrom's sun cooks off they'll be severed from the galactic community for centuries or millenia to come anyway. Levying sanctions on them post-war when they've had no hostility with Council races just seems vindictive for its own sake.

Which brings up another bad writing point - what the hell was Hackett talking about, Gerrel "causing trouble on the Turian border?" This is never elaborated on or alluded to anywhere else. The writers couldn't be bothered to mention the genocide, the centuries of isolationism, inaction against the heretics or any of the rest of the points detracting from the Geth; they didn't mention the aid the Quarians provided to the Turians in the wake of the Taetrus Blast (as established in Cerberus Daily News), but they spontaneously made up things like this? Just seems like they were further stacking the deck.

EDIT: Holy crap, that got longer that I meant it to.

You are right when it comes to the AI. However why then with all the laws against AI research did the Quarian's continue to give the Geth minuet upgrades bringing them closer and closer to true AI's. Tali tells you this in ME1 (just had this conversation with her today) The Quarian's are at fault for that. And how is it that they just knew the Geth would attack them? Because manual labor will not satisfy a sentient being for long and if they were sentient beings then the Quarian where using them as slaves? Tali also says this. 

 

In part yes the Geth have done some things that are not all that great but neither have the Quarian's.



#264
DeinonSlayer

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You are right when it comes to the AI. However why then with all the laws against AI research did the Quarian's continue to give the Geth minuet upgrades bringing them closer and closer to true AI's. Tali tells you this in ME1 (just had this conversation with her today) The Quarian's are at fault for that. And how is it that they just knew the Geth would attack them? Because manual labor will not satisfy a sentient being for long and if they were sentient beings then the Quarian where using them as slaves? Tali also says this. 
 
In part yes the Geth have done some things that are not all that great but neither have the Quarian's.

Why do we keep doubling and redoubling the processing power of our computers? Why do we automate more and more of the work we do? She explains this - networking allowed them to perform more complex tasks. Self-awareness was an unintended consequence which they tried to prevent when they saw the first signs, but the Geth were already too far along.

Like I said, they recognized what the Geth were capable of doing; their failure was in assuming the Geth would be hostile. Again, how do you think we'd react if the computers controlling our nuclear arsenal started deviating from their programming in any way? Bring it tea and biscuits, or attempt to debug, and try to shut it down if it continues to deviate with that kind of power at its command?

Both sides have done and continue to do wrong.

#265
sH0tgUn jUliA

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I love the way people minimize being responsible for the deaths of 2 billion people as "doing things not all that great."

 

The quarians were also hoping to gain an economic foothold in the galactic market for smart mechs without violating the Council's anti-AI laws. The more complex the tasks the mechs could perform the higher the prices they could charge. No one thinks about this. Tali also mentions that the geth were evolving ON THEIR OWN at a rate so gradual that no one noticed. 

 

One other thing... without Tali's irrefutable evidence, the galaxy would have been reaped in 2183. This makes Tali the most heroic character in the story.

 

And the civilian ships? Arming them? The reapers are in the galaxy. Do the reapers discriminate "oh that ship isn't armed. It's a civilian ship. We won't fire at it." No, they don't. They glassed Bekenstien because they made binoculars.



#266
KaiserShep

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They glassed Bekenstien because they made binoculars.

 

Can't have those pesky organics augmenting their optical abilities.


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#267
DeinonSlayer

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I love the way people minimize being responsible for the deaths of 2 billion people as "doing things not all that great."
 
The quarians were also hoping to gain an economic foothold in the galactic market for smart mechs without violating the Council's anti-AI laws. The more complex the tasks the mechs could perform the higher the prices they could charge. No one thinks about this. Tali also mentions that the geth were evolving ON THEIR OWN at a rate so gradual that no one noticed. 
 
One other thing... without Tali's irrefutable evidence, the galaxy would have been reaped in 2183. This makes Tali the most heroic character in the story.
 
And the civilian ships? Arming them? The reapers are in the galaxy. Do the reapers discriminate "oh that ship isn't armed. It's a civilian ship. We won't fire at it." No, they don't. They glassed Bekenstien because they made binoculars.

Something else to consider... as seen in the Citadel DLC, the Council had AI of their own which they terminated in reaction to the Morning War.

Talk to Gianna Parasini about Synthetic Insights in ME1. The Council gives special waivers to certain organizations to conduct AI research which is otherwise illegal. The LOKI mechs have five fingers. The only species with five fingers who were on the galactic scene at the time were the Asari and (possibly) the Batarians, and of those two, the Asari are the ones who are on the Council and have a say over who gets those waivers.

The Council watched Rannoch burn without intervening, denounced what was left of the Quarian species before the entire galaxy for creating an AI, heaped sanctions on them and showed them to the airlock... and quietly exterminated the AI that they, themselves, created on the side.

#268
KaiserShep

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I have no doubt that hypocrisy to the government in the MEU is akin to sunlight for plants.



#269
Terminus Echoes

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You should also do this on the Tuchunka arc as well. That also has a lot of contradictions with ME2, especially with Mordin.



#270
ImaginaryMatter

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I have no doubt that hypocrisy to the government in the MEU is akin to sunlight for plants.

 

Which is kind of why I wanted a specific epilogue.



#271
DeinonSlayer

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Which is kind of why I wanted a specific epilogue.

Choose Control.

Have Harbinger sit on top of the Council Chambers in session and loudly thump an appendage against the roof whenever people start ignoring him.
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#272
ImaginaryMatter

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Choose Control.

Have Harbinger sit on top of the Council Chambers in session and loudly thump an appendage against the roof whenever people start ignoring him.

 

Asari Councilor: I'm sorry Shepalyst but at this time the Asari will not be... *zzzaaappp*



#273
DeinonSlayer

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Asari Councilor: I'm sorry Shepalyst but at this time the Asari will not be... *zzzaaappp*

Shepalyst has to do something to amuse himself centuries after everyone he knew is dead.

Could also have a couple of reapers stalk a tramp freighter through a random star system, and freeze whichever one it focuses sensors on.

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shining-1997-miniseries-jack-torrance-he

#274
ImaginaryMatter

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I would start a Reaper band, we would literally rock entire worlds.



#275
Terminus Echoes

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Shepard=The Shining? I'd buy that.