1331 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

Shepard=The Shining? I'd buy that.

I ****ing hated that topiary... the true predecessor of the Weeping Angels.

[Sir DeLoria]

I take BW's intent there on this; The Quarians own overzealousness got the better of them and they did it to themselves. Personally, I think their deaths are a favor to the universe and a correction of a failure of evolution. 

So I assume you want half of humanity to be wiped out, because the Quarians act in no other way than humans would. It also wasn't "the Quarians" the final choice was made by their leaders, the average person had absolutely no say in this.

Post-war in my fic, the Quarians get to face the benefits of screwing up with the Geth 300 years previously. Time for legal sanctions against their species. I'd say 300 years of minimal trade and a DMZ and forced disarmament of their species sounds about right.

Sanctions against an entire species for what their ancestors did centuries ago? That's very just and fair /sarcasm

[Jorji Costava]

So I assume you want half of humanity to be wiped out, because the Quarians act in no other way than humans would. It also wasn't "the Quarians" the final choice was made by their leaders, the average person had absolutely no say in this.

 

I really don't want to get roped into this debate again, so I'll just say this. I appreciate the point you're making here, but this might not be the best argument to make against Massively, seeing as he's made it pretty clear that he's not at all uncomfortable with the idea of most of humanity being wiped out. From that point, this thread would take an even uglier (if that's possible) turn.

[Sir DeLoria]

*megasnip*

A population of multiple millions would not die as easily as you described. If almost all of Rannoch's population was left behind, you're telling me there would've been no farmers left around anymore, no one able to build a new community? Yes, famine would've killed a number of the population, but certainly not 90% (some of the worst famines cost 1/6 of the population). Same goes for disease, the Bubonic Plague one of the most devastating pandemics in human history killed about 30% (estimated) of the European population. Even if a huge number of people got killed by these factors, a 100% death rate would be almost impossible.

Besides, wether the Geth killed them or starved them, they were still responsible.

[DeinonSlayer]

Funny how out of AssaultSloth's four points in the OP we end up talking about point #3 and nothing else. Every time.

I see point 1 as being just as ugly.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Funny how out of AssaultSloth's four points in the OP we end up talking about point #3 and nothing else. Every time.

I see point 1 as being just as ugly.

 

That horse is now a fine grain powder, it's been beaten so many times.

 

I assume there's no conflict about #1 because a good deal of people (the one's needed to argue with) kill the Geth regardless so they probably don't care.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Funny how out of AssaultSloth's four points in the OP we end up talking about point #3 and nothing else. Every time.

I see point 1 as being just as ugly.

Well, there's not much to talk about. It happened, cold and simple. And since this isn't about a certain blue squadmate, poor character developmet, if that's the correct term, isn't going to be yelled about.  

[von uber]

Don't say her name! You will summon them, and all will be lost!

[shodiswe]

A population of multiple millions would not die as easily as you described. If almost all of Rannoch's population was left behind, you're telling me there would've been no farmers left around anymore, no one able to build a new community? Yes, famine would've killed a number of the population, but certainly not 90% (some of the worst famines cost 1/6 of the population). Same goes for disease, the Bubonic Plague one of the most devastating pandemics in human history killed about 30% (estimated) of the European population. Even if a huge number of people got killed by these factors, a 100% death rate would be almost impossible.

Besides, wether the Geth killed them or starved them, they were still responsible.

No, the Quarians got no farmers capable of working anywhere on the planet. It's a 100% warzone, also, farming had been delegated to Geth. The whole planet is as war, they can't redistribute food from one part of the planet to another.
The famines you're comparing with wern't wartime famines or due to the crops and land being rendered toxic or radioactive. They were simply harvests gone bad.
So, in your example a pandemic in peacetime where quarantines could be used effectively, cased a 20% of a population to die, a population that had a hardeier immunesystem than the Quarians. Also, note that there wasn't a famine and war covering the whole world at the same time.
This would have happend during the one year period of the war.
Then we got the issues with toxic contamination and radiation that the Geth later spent 300 years cleaning up.

2 000 000 000 people
- Plague 30%
1 400 000 000
-famine (However, the famines we compare with are those where it's usualy just one crop and a % of the crops that have been spoiled)20% population decrease. However, if instead of redusing production by 50% where people can simply eat a little less and cut down on wasting of food, and instead cut production down to 0%, then you will have a serious situation. Especialy if you can't import food in large enough quantities. To feed billions.
1 120 000 000

If you take away all food from a human they might last a month or 2. Would the Billions of Quarians last a year of famine during the war? Coupled with diseases striking an already weakened by famine population, then add to that a population with a naturaly weak health, similar to old senor citizens on earth. A population group that can have high death rates from something as simple as a flu on earth. What would happen on Rannoch?
On top of that we got poison gas, toxins, nuclear radiation and whatever else the geth had to spend 300 years cleaning up.
It wouldn't surprise me if 90% died from non-combat reasons.
that leaves 200 million, many fought in a war, many got killed while hiding behind the lines. This has to be added to the statistics aswell.

17-20 million might have escaped.

The few left would bestuck on a planet with no food, diseases, toxins, lethal radiation, drinkingwater of questionable quality. On top of that they are already weakened by famine and disease. Also, Quarians got a terribly weak immunesystem even when they are at peak condition.
Nevermind that many of the survivors would likely try to pickup weapons and shoot at any Geth they see and consequently get stomped out. It makes sense that there arn't any Quarians left.

I assume the Quarians fought to the end, similar to Nazi Germany, which lost 80% of it's armed forces to fighting, famine and diseases. Given that I don't think the Quarians ever tried to surrender(might not have worked anyway) like the germans did, their losses were most likely much higher.

Also, the military leadership would have made sure the food and medicalsupplies they could get their hands on were prioritised for the soldiers and military personel. This is also soemtihng that's happend in the past of Earths history, where the kings and generals appropriate the livestock and foodstores of the civilian population and large parts of the population dies of out of extreme starvation because they have absolutely nothing left.

The only people in any position to survive the evacuation would have been the military staff and personel who had food and medical supply priority. It's also impressive that they actualy managed to survive those first few years on the flotilla. I'm guessing military discipline might have helepd them through that period.

I'm sure the Geth killed quite a few civilians swell as secondary caulties. Any civilians taking up arms would have been killed aswell.
Like Koris said, they turned their whole people into enemy combatants and the civilians simply wern't cut out to be soldiers.

[shodiswe]

Simple experiment, take one thousand mice.

Lock them up in a concrete bunker with no chance of escape, contaminate them with toxic and radioactive water. No food, and spread a plague to them.

Lock the door, and then check on them one year later.

How many survivors to you expect?

I would expect 0 survivors, if anything would be left they wouldn't be in any condition to ever procreate.

On top of that you could throw in 50 cats aswell.(the cats would have been vacinated against the plague to make them more like Geth)

How many mice will be alive when you open it up one year later? Granted, mice are far hardier than Quarians and would survive things that would kill a quarian ten times over.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I really don't want to get roped into this debate again, so I'll just say this. I appreciate the point you're making here, but this might not be the best argument to make against Massively, seeing as he's made it pretty clear that he's not at all uncomfortable with the idea of most of humanity being wiped out. From that point, this thread would take an even uglier (if that's possible) turn.

 

Solves what I believe is the number one problem of our day: Excess population. It's the root of all problems today.

 

The population of Earth should never be above 4 to 5 billion people. The Earth doesn't have the sustainability to hold any higher, and we don't have the technology or motivation to go any further yet. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Sanctions against an entire species for what their ancestors did centuries ago? That's very just and fair /sarcasm

 

If they haven't learned from their mistakes, then yes, it is completely fair. As I said to Deinon, you have to account for the legal perspective of sanctions against them as a whole, much like legal sanctions against a corporation or a state. The rules don't change because someone else is in power. First, they have to prove themselves. They haven't proven themselves.

[Mrs_Stick]

Funny how out of AssaultSloth's four points in the OP we end up talking about point #3 and nothing else. Every time.I see point 1 as being just as ugly.

Is it that they switch from we to I that makes this a bad thing? I will admit I don't understand why they did that.

[DeinonSlayer]

Is it that they switch from we to I that makes this a bad thing? I will admit I don't understand why they did that.

It's the idea that they had to transform themselves to be more like us to be considered alive. "We would be alive, and we could help you." "True intelligence." "Indicative of life." And, yes, "does this unit have a soul."

Chris E'toile specifically wrote them as not being like organics and not wanting to be. To quote him, "the idea of a synthetic wanting to be more like organics is about as offensive as a story about a black man wanting to be white."

ME3 went in just about the polar opposite direction of where Chris was trying to take them, and they became far less interesting as a result.

[shodiswe]

Any Shepard interested in amassing forces to defeat the reapers should not concern themselves with the rights and wrongs of a conflict predating human spaceflight, but rather push for an outcome that maximises the forces available. If peace is not an option then they should pick the side that will come out of it with a larger fleet. Of course very few players will play like that (me included).
 
 
Any issues that people see most likely come from making the resolution of a major conflict come down to the wave of the players hand, and the resolution being immediate and total. This makes for a tense and exciting moment in the game, but perhaps one that could leave you unsatisfied afterwards, with the magic buttons required to make the knife edge situation come about in the first place.
 
As for the Quarians themselves however much blame you can point either way, neither side deserves to be wiped out.
 
I see them as tragic figures, victims of unilateral actions by a few in charge, their longstanding "act as one, or die as many" policy being the thing that can end up being their downfall. On the other hand they do have a civilian government the "conclave" that presumably supported the war, as if the admirals overuled them, then by law the admirals have to resign, in which case there would be new admirals in me3 which is not the case.
 
 
Either way few average Quarians will have had shepards experience of both sides of the conflict, and would jump at the chance to retake their homeworld from what they believe are murderous machines who destroyed their civilisation and doomed them to a constant struggle to survive.
 
 
Both sides need some time out on the galactic naughty step
 
 
Some of the Quarian hate out there almost feels like star treks Q at the encounter at farpoint trial...
 
A grievously savage race indeed

The thing is, the Quarian admirals get away with not involving anyone else, they don't need to ask the Conclave about a war that's been going on for 300 years, all they have to do is vote amongst themselves on the merits of a military operation.
They regard it as a military decision, the conclave would have so say.
Koris will tell you when you save him that the civilians didn't want the war. The civilians and conclave never had a say in the matter. All they could do was obey the commands of the Admiralty, or start a rebellion, where the admiralty and military personel controled all weapons, medical supplies and the most valuable assets.

I do feel pitty for the Quarians, that doesn't mean they arn't to be blamed for both the Morning war and what happend in ME3.
It's jsut too obvious. That's the way the writers wrote it. It was stressed that the war never "officialy" ended, which gave the Admirals what they wanted, no matter what the people wanted.

I have to agree, the Quarians are tragic figures at the mercy of mad military leaders. Some of the Civilians might have supported it saying it was culturaly imporant to safeguard their cultural heritage and pride, and therefor attack the Geth. But it was never up to them.

The ones dying and crashing are the civilians who are used as cannon foder which you meet down on Rannoch. I think Bioware put the effort into showing this Quarian civilian who was dying down on the planet and Koris to make you feel pitty for the Quarians over their tragedy. Which ofcourse it is.

[angol fear]

It's the idea that they had to transform themselves to be more like us to be considered alive. "We would be alive, and we could help you." "True intelligence." "Indicative of life." And, yes, "does this unit have a soul."

Chris E'toile specifically wrote them as not being like organics and not wanting to be. To quote him, "the idea of a synthetic wanting to be more like organics is about as offensive as a story about a black man wanting to be white."

ME3 went in just about the polar opposite direction of where Chris was trying to take them, and they became far less interesting as a result.

Could you show some quotes where Legions says that the geth want to be like organic? Or anything that make us think that?

[DeinonSlayer]

Could you show some quotes where Legions says that the geth want to be like organic? Or anything that make us think that?

I don't have the script in front of me. Watch the scene where he describes the reaper upgrades in the war room again. There's also the blurbs in my first paragraph above.

[angol fear]

I don't have the script in front of me. Watch the scene where he describes the reaper upgrades in the war room again. There's also the blurbs in my first paragraph above.

Ok, I'll see it, thanks!

[shodiswe]

Could you show some quotes where Legions says that the geth want to be like organic? Or anything that make us think that?

It seems consistent from ME2 throughout ME3 that the Geth want to evolve and better themselves, in ME2 he admits he doesn't yet know what the next step will be for them. In ME3 Legion seems quite sure of what he wants for his people. No doubts what so ever.

[Sir DeLoria]

No, the Quarians got no farmers capable of working anywhere on the planet. It's a 100% warzone, also, farming had been delegated to Geth.

Speculation.

The famines you're comparing with wern't wartime famines or due to the crops and land being rendered toxic or radioactive. They were simply harvests gone bad...*snip*

Nope, these were examples of the government/foreign invader cutting off any and all food sources to the general population. The people who survived, lived off improvised farming and rationing in most cases.

A population group that can have high death rates from something as simple as a flu on earth.

Quarians were not yet suffering from their extreme immune system weakness back then. Yes, they always had a fairly weak immune system, but it's this bad today due to the centuries of living in a sterile environment.

On top of that we got poison gas, toxins, nuclear radiation and whatever else the geth had to spend 300 years cleaning up.

None of that is ever mentioned in the codex or dialogue, it's all made up. All we know is that Rannoch was "scarred from the war". This could mean anything.

I assume the Quarians fought to the end, similar to Nazi Germany, which lost 80% of it's armed forces to fighting, famine and diseases.

That's some of the biggest made up bullsh*t I've ever heard. Nazi Germany didn't fight till the end, most soldiers were sick of the war and entire divisions surrendered to the allies on both fronts. US forces killed a total of 373,600 German soldiers(Wehrmacht and SS) and captured 8,000,000 in the entire war. Very few soldiers actually died to famine or diseases, that was only a major problem in the 19th century(post-WW1 Spanish Flu excluded). In fact here's the official statistics:

Wehrmacht total all time strenght: 20,700,000

Heer Kriegsmarine Luftwaffe Total

Killed: 1,710,000 52,000 150,000 1,912,000

Missing: 1,541,000 32,000 141,000 1,714,000

Total: 3,251,000 84,000 291,000 3,626,000

This is the official register from the German Wehrmacht archives in Flensburg. Other sources are almost identical, but this is likely the most accurate.

Bottom line is, that you have no proof or realistic argument as to how the entire Quarian population could've died if they weren't murdered by the Geth. Given that we never see any Quarian survivors, communities or similar on Rannoch, the Geth must've killed the remaining Quarian population, if they hadn't already done so over the course of the war. Your argument, that the Quarians would've fought till the end against any odds is preposterous and your example of Nazi Germany couldn't be more false either.

[Mrs_Stick]

It's the idea that they had to transform themselves to be more like us to be considered alive. "We would be alive, and we could help you." "True intelligence." "Indicative of life." And, yes, "does this unit have a soul."
Chris E'toile specifically wrote them as not being like organics and not wanting to be. To quote him, "the idea of a synthetic wanting to be more like organics is about as offensive as a story about a black man wanting to be white."
ME3 went in just about the polar opposite direction of where Chris was trying to take them, and they became far less interesting as a result.

That is true. I already viewed them as being alive why did they need the reaper code to become truly alive (hope that is about right) And why did they want to become independent? Unless its suppose to be the only way they believe they can survive in the galaxy. Its something for me to ponder at least.

[themikefest]

I don't have the script in front of me. Watch the scene where he describes the reaper upgrades in the war room again. There's also the blurbs in my first paragraph above.

And depending on what dialogue option you pick, Shepard can agree with Legion/Geth VI. For that dialogue to happen, the left dialogue has to be picked first when Legion/Geth VI speak.

[Ryriena]

I tend too agree, I didn't understand the whole reaper code thing either it felt rather out of character for the Geth. My Shepard already saw them as alive before the whole arc ended. I was like, why do they need reaper code to be consider alive. They where asking questions that a normal human would make already. They where having doubts about killing the Quarins. In others already having human like thoughts.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

civilians would have surrendered. I'm sorry to disagree with the die hard "fight to the last man/woman/child" people here. Perhaps remaining military would have fought to the last, but civilians outnumber military in the society. The entire planet would not be toxic. Instead of being moved to non-toxic areas, they were slaughtered by the geth. 

 

Legion did a total reversal to individuality for all geth in ME3. Patrick Weekes wanted to paint the Quarians as a bunch of anti-synthetic racists and make the Geth as sympathetic as possible while making the Quarians as irritating as he could. You were supposed to side with the Geth. It was so hamfisted that I side with the quarians every time. Aria makes up for the lost war assets.

[Iakus]

It's the idea that they had to transform themselves to be more like us to be considered alive. "We would be alive, and we could help you." "True intelligence." "Indicative of life." And, yes, "does this unit have a soul."

Chris E'toile specifically wrote them as not being like organics and not wanting to be. To quote him, "the idea of a synthetic wanting to be more like organics is about as offensive as a story about a black man wanting to be white."

ME3 went in just about the polar opposite direction of where Chris was trying to take them, and they became far less interesting as a result.

 

So much this.

 

I really wonder if they actually reviewed much of ME3 for the unpleasant implications the themes had