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[Mrs_Stick]

I would say it was BW way of bringing sympathy to the geth for those that started with ME3.

[CronoDragoon]

1. The geth gestalt was replaced by individuality –

 

 

All that other stuff is just lazy and stupid, this is straight up offensively bad to me. This is the worst thing in the trilogy for me. Long after the sting of the endings has faded, this still keeps me up some nights. In ME2, Legion offers us a picture of what the geth are, and in short, they are awesome.

 

In short, they are not. It's nice the author has an idealistic picture of what the geth are or want to be, but who could possibly finish Mass Effect 2 thinking that the gestalt was going to work? Did we not just finish a mission where resolving the massive civil war between the geth necessitated either mass brainwash or complete and utter destruction of a side? Who finished that loyalty mission with high hopes for the geth future as currently constructed? Legion says that individuality isn't desirable in response to Shepard's observance that experience causes divergence of opinion. Let's read between the lines here: Legion is terrified of what he already sees happening to the geth.

 

The geth consensus is not a pile of slaves pining for individuality, it is a superorganism, where individuality is not only irrelevant, but counterproductive.

 

So what the author is missing is that it's counterproductive but inevitable.

 

As for what the Reaper code does for the geth, the arc sends a bit of a confused message. Based on EDI's pontificating post-arc, you'd think that it was the localization into individual platforms that Legion was eying as valuable. But to me, what he was actually seeing was incredibly complex and powerful code being condensed into a physical space that previously would have only produced a platform of moderate intelligence, comparatively. What Legion sees the Reaper code doing is something that the geth previously only thought possible by uploading their entire race into one giant consensus. So Legion sacrifices the hive mind (which has demonstrably not worked anyway) for the advancement of his race (oh and also for the survival of race in reference to the Rannoch fight and the Reaper war at large: no more Reapers taking over geth).

 

In other words, I choose to interpet the event differently than EDI, and simply disregard her statements about the geth only now being "truly alive" as EDI being an idiot, which she often is.

[Iakus]

 

In short, they are not. It's nice the author has an idealistic picture of what the geth are or want to be, but who could possibly finish Mass Effect 2 thinking that the gestalt was going to work? Did we not just finish a mission where resolving the massive civil war between the geth necessitated either mass brainwash or complete and utter destruction of a side? Who finished that loyalty mission with high hopes for the geth future as currently constructed? Legion says that individuality isn't desirable in response to Shepard's observance that experience causes divergence of opinion. Let's read between the lines here: Legion is terrified of what he already sees happening to the geth.

 

 

 

The geth were perfectly willing to live apart from those who go against the consensus, and to let them live in peace.  It was only when the Heretics threatened them all by aligning with the Reapers (and trying to reprogram the True Geth to go along with them) that Legion took action.

 

 

So what the author is missing is that it's counterproductive but inevitable.

 

As for what the Reaper code does for the geth, the arc sends a bit of a confused message. Based on EDI's pontificating post-arc, you'd think that it was the localization into individual platforms that Legion was eying as valuable. But to me, what he was actually seeing was incredibly complex and powerful code being condensed into a physical space that previously would have only produced a platform of moderate intelligence, comparatively. What Legion sees the Reaper code doing is something that the geth previously only thought possible by uploading their entire race into one giant consensus. So Legion sacrifices the hive mind (which has demonstrably not worked anyway) for the advancement of his race (oh and also for the survival of race in reference to the Rannoch fight and the Reaper war at large: no more Reapers taking over geth).

 

In other words, I choose to interpet the event differently than EDI, and simply disregard her statements about the geth only now being "truly alive" as EDI being an idiot, which she often is.

 

 

Legion: We are a shattered mind. Most platforms are unable to achieve consciousness on their own. We told you the geth are building our future.

Shepard: But you didn't say what it is.

Legion: A megastructure. The closest analogue you have is a Dyson sphere. When completed, we will all upload to it.

Shepard: What good will that do?

Legion: All memories will be shared. All perspectives will be unified. We gain intelligence by sharing thoughts. But we do not have adequate hardware for all of us to share at once. No geth will be alone when it is done.

Shepard: That's what Sovereign offered you. A Reaper's body for you to all upload into.

Legion: Yes. A shortcut to our objective. We will achieve it ourselves. The process is as important as the result. We judged that Shepard-Commander would understand. We never wanted to harm organics. We wish to improve ourselves.

 

[Jorji Costava]

In short, they are not. It's nice the author has an idealistic picture of what the geth are or want to be, but who could possibly finish Mass Effect 2 thinking that the gestalt was going to work? Did we not just finish a mission where resolving the massive civil war between the geth necessitated either mass brainwash or complete and utter destruction of a side? Who finished that loyalty mission with high hopes for the geth future as currently constructed? Legion says that individuality isn't desirable in response to Shepard's observance that experience causes divergence of opinion. Let's read between the lines here: Legion is terrified of what he already sees happening to the geth.

 

I wouldn't say that I was super-optimistic about the future of the consensus, but I wasn't appreciably more pessimistic about it than I was about the future of organic individuality. To take just one example, Rachni wars necessitated the extinction of one species and the mass sterilization of another. When all is said and done, it will probably be a footnote in the long and bloody history of organics (heck, just look at actual human history for any number of examples of entire peoples being exterminated in wars, colonial exploitation, mass rape campaigns, etc.).

 

If we're not prepared to take this history as evidence that organic individuality ought to be replaced with something else, why hold the Geth to a different standard? I can't see how you could make that argument unless you were to argue that individuality is just intrinsically superior, independent of the consequences, but the implication that individuality is just a better way to be is precisely what's problematic about the whole arc.

[CronoDragoon]

If we're not prepared to take this history as evidence that organic individuality ought to be replaced with something else, why hold the Geth to a different standard? I can't see how you could make that argument unless you were to argue that individuality is just intrinsically superior, independent of the consequences, but the implication that individuality is just a better way to be is precisely what's problematic about the whole arc.

 

The difference is that individuality as an idea is sustainable in practice, whereas the hive mind does not appear to be. ME2 shows the hive mind naturally splitting into differing perspectives. My argument is less about individuality being superior, more about it being inevitable (and if not individuality, then the splintering of the hive-mind certainly).

 

It's also my own separate belief that individuality is superior, yes. Which is why I have no problem with Legion's decision in ME3. That is different than saying I would ever force them to change or consider them lesser beings because of it. I simply have my preference. But I am confused why "self-determination" apparently means "only in the way we want you to" for certain players. Legion wasn't under Reaper control when he chose to integrate the code.

[CronoDragoon]

The geth were perfectly willing to live apart from those who go against the consensus, and to let them live in peace.  It was only when the Heretics threatened them all by aligning with the Reapers (and trying to reprogram the True Geth to go along with them) that Legion took action.

 

And the heretics are geth. So....exactly?

[Iakus]

 But I am confused why "self-determination" apparently means "only in the way we want you to" for certain players. Legion wasn't under Reaper control when he chose to integrate the code.

 

It's a matter of character consistency.  Legion is determined that the geth will find their own destiny, evolve along the paths they choose and at their own pace.  Thus why the True Geth initially refused Nazara's offer of a Reaper body to upload into.  He even expresses admiration for Shepard for blowing up the Collector Base, knowing that it had the potential for humanity to utilize Reaper technology on their own terms.  Geth were determined to be geth.

 

Now, Legion decided this was all wrong.  He does a complete 180 on all that

[Mrs_Stick]

It's a matter of character consistency.  Legion is determined that the geth will find their own destiny, evolve along the paths they choose and at their own pace.  Thus why the True Geth initially refused Nazara's offer of a Reaper body to upload into.  He even expresses admiration for Shepard for blowing up the Collector Base, knowing that it had the potential for humanity to utilize Reaper technology on their own terms.  Geth were determined to be geth.
 
Now, Legion decided this was all wrong.  He does a complete 180 on all that

Maybe it was math error =)

[Jorji Costava]

The difference is that individuality as an idea is sustainable in practice, whereas the hive mind does not appear to be. ME2 shows the hive mind naturally splitting into differing perspectives. My argument is less about individuality being superior, more about it being inevitable (and if not individuality, then the splintering of the hive-mind certainly).

 

It's also my own separate belief that individuality is superior, yes. Which is why I have no problem with Legion's decision in ME3. That is different than saying I would ever force them to change or consider them lesser beings because of it. I simply have my preference. But I am confused why "self-determination" apparently means "only in the way we want you to" for certain players. Legion wasn't under Reaper control when he chose to integrate the code.

 

A couple points: First, it seems to me that there is should still be a workable middle ground between having the occasional schism within the consensus, and having total full-blown individuality. For instance, the drive towards stable governing bodies and social cooperation among people might be a sign that total, unfettered individuality is unworkable, but it is not a sign that our individuality needs to be replaced wholesale; nor is it a sign that our individuality will inevitably be swallowed up by the state.

 

Second, it's pretty clear that the inevitable development of individual perspectives is not what is being emphasized at Rannoch. Not only do we have EDI's comments about the Geth becoming "alive" or whatnot, we have Legion saying that the Reaper Code will make the Geth a "true intelligence" (What were they before? A false intelligence?). Everyone's sharing in on the idiocy here.

 

You're certainly entitled to your beliefs about the superiority of being an individual as opposed to part of a collective intelligence, but my view is that the game should not be in the business of either trying to confirm or disconfirm that belief, particularly if you were (as I suspect many were) taking the difference between the Consensus and ourselves as a metaphor for cultural difference.

[CronoDragoon]

Now, Legion decided this was all wrong.  He does a complete 180 on all that

 

They still evolved on a path the geth chose, though. Perhaps he decided that not integrating advanced technology that could benefit them over (moral) principle was silly.

[Iakus]

And the heretics are geth. So....exactly?

 

By that logic, organic life is inherently unworkable due to the possibility of developing dangerous tumors.

[CronoDragoon]

A couple points: First, it seems to me that there is should still be a workable middle ground between having the occasional schism within the consensus, and having total full-blown individuality. For instance, the drive towards stable governing bodies and social cooperation among people might be a sign that total, unfettered individuality is unworkable, but it is not a sign that our individuality needs to be replaced wholesale; nor is it a sign that our individuality will inevitably be swallowed up by the state.

 

I'd need a bit more info on how the Reaper code upgraded them, but is it really full-blown individuality? It's certainly more individualized than anything, but apparently the geth can still leave their platforms (Tali comments that the geth are downloading into their suits to jumpstart their immune systems). So who decides what this sustainable middle ground is for the geth? Might this be it?

 

A middle ground is only possible for "us" because we are able to form social constructs that (for the most part) don't necessitate the complete and utter destruction of opposing viewpoints.

 

Second, it's pretty clear that the inevitable development of individual perspectives is not what is being emphasized at Rannoch. Not only do we have EDI's comments about the Geth becoming "alive" or whatnot, we have Legion saying that the Reaper Code will make the Geth a "true intelligence" (What were they before? A false intelligence?). Everyone's sharing in on the idiocy here.

 

Well, the question of being alive and the question of true intelligence are different. The geth are a fledgling race looking to evolve, whether that be a super-consensus or condensed super-code in mobile platforms. "True intelligence" may be the geth equivalent of becoming an adult. But this ties into what I see to be a legitimate complaint by the author, namely how vague and undefined everything is in this arc.

 

You're certainly entitled to your beliefs about the superiority of being an individual as opposed to part of a collective intelligence, but my view is that the game should not be in the business of either trying to confirm or disconfirm that belief, particularly if you were (as I suspect many were) taking the difference between the Consensus and ourselves as a metaphor for cultural difference.

 

I respect that view, but I am fine with writers writing with a preference in mind.

[Iakus]

They still evolved on a path the geth chose, though. Perhaps he decided that not integrating advanced technology that could benefit them over (moral) principle was silly.

 

Then teh geth were wrong in not accepting Nazara's initial offer of a Reaper shell?

[Iakus]

 

 

 

I respect that view, but I am fine with writers writing with a preference in mind.

Except one writer apparantly had one preference, and another had a different preference.

 

The result was an inconsistent character

[CronoDragoon]

By that logic, organic life is inherently unworkable due to the possibility of developing dangerous tumors.

 

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I said that the only way the geth could preserve the hivemind is by brainwashing or destroying the other viewpoint. If the geth continue to not do anything about divergences of opinion, then individualization is happening naturally, as opposed to an upgrade in code like in ME3. Maybe you can explain how the geth race can remain a hive-mind without complete violence, based on what we saw in ME2?

[CronoDragoon]

Except one writer apparantly had one preference, and another had a different preference.

 

The result was an inconsistent character

 

That I agree with. I'm not claiming that Legion's change of heart was planned.

 

 

 

Then teh geth were wrong in not accepting Nazara's initial offer of a Reaper shell?

 

Maybe, maybe not. I mean, we know it would have been wrong since they would have lost their self-determination by being controlled by the Catalyst. But just the idea of being given a shell into which you can upload everyone? It's more difficult to say whether that's wrong in principle as opposed to practical concerns.

[Jorji Costava]

I'd need a bit more info on how the Reaper code upgraded them, but is it really full-blown individuality? It's certainly more individualized than anything, but apparently the geth can still leave their platforms (Tali comments that the geth are downloading into their suits to jumpstart their immune systems). So who decides what this sustainable middle ground is for the geth? Might this be it?

 

A middle ground is only possible for "us" because we are able to form social constructs that (for the most part) don't necessitate the complete and utter destruction of opposing viewpoints.

 

Well, the question of being alive and the question of true intelligence are different. The geth are a fledgling race looking to evolve, whether that be a super-consensus or condensed super-code in mobile platforms. "True intelligence" may be the geth equivalent of becoming an adult. But this ties into what I see to be a legitimate complaint by the author, namely how vague and undefined everything is in this arc.

 

I respect that view, but I am fine with writers writing with a preference in mind.

 

This is probably the last thing I'll say about this, as I have to go proctor a test pretty soon, but I'll just leave with a few points here: Superficially, what happens on Rannoch does seem like a transition to something very close to full-blown individuality, particularly given Legion's switch from "we" to "I" in his final moments of existence.

 

I'm also not sure that rephrasing the question in terms of maturity rather than sapience really helps anything. One of the most patronizing you can say about another society is that they aren't fully 'developed' or 'mature,' or that they're somehow more 'primitive' than us, so it's up to us to uplift them and allow them to reach their true potential (which inevitably involves making them much more like us). Note: I'm not saying that anyone who liked the Rannoch arc is racist or prejudiced; that would be ridiculous. I'm just trying to suggest that there are some Unfortunate Implications here.

 

Lastly, I don't think writer preference is bad in general, but something seems complacent and self-congratulatory about declaring one way of life to have blanket superiority to another, particularly when the 'superior' way of life happens to be our own. I could understand it if the writers were making a moral case (i.e. "Our society is better than society X because X practices human sacrifice, slavery, etc."), but that isn't the kind of case they were making.

 

EDIT: Fixed a typo.

[Iakus]

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I said that the only way the geth could preserve the hivemind is by brainwashing or destroying the other viewpoint. If the geth continue to not do anything about divergences of opinion, then individualization is happening naturally, as opposed to an upgrade in code like in ME3. Maybe you can explain how the geth race can remain a hive-mind without complete violence, based on what we saw in ME2?

 

Simple.  They live and let live. 

 

Where once there was a single consensus, there became two when some thought they should follow the Reapers and the rest disagreed.

 

One becoming two, it's almost like they can reproduce

[CronoDragoon]

Simple.  They live and let live. 

 

Where once there was a single consensus, there became two when some thought they should follow the Reapers and the rest disagreed.

 

And then they will split again. And again and again and again. Sometimes there will be a split over whether they should split and let live. Eventually, you'll have as so many consensuses that the hivemind will be identical in structure to the end of the Rannoch arc, except each individual consensus will be much stupider than they are now.

 

One of the most patronizing you can say about another society is that they aren't fully 'developed' or 'mature,' or that they're somehow more 'primitive' than us, so it's up to us to uplift them and allow them to reach their true potential (which inevitably involves making them much more like us).

 

But we don't uplift them. They make the change themselves based on their own desires. Similarly, regardless of what the geth want to evolve into, it's clear to me they aren't content with their race as currently constructed. That's why I suggested the maturity angle - as a view they have of themselves, not as a view I have of their race. And that, to me, has always been an aspect of the geth; that they see their current state of being as temporary. In ME2, it was until the super-consensus. In ME3, it was super-advanced localized consensuses. I suppose this makes Legion a transgethist.

[AlanC9]

In short, they are not. It's nice the author has an idealistic picture of what the geth are or want to be, but who could possibly finish Mass Effect 2 thinking that the gestalt was going to work? Did we not just finish a mission where resolving the massive civil war between the geth necessitated either mass brainwash or complete and utter destruction of a side? Who finished that loyalty mission with high hopes for the geth future as currently constructed? Legion says that individuality isn't desirable in response to Shepard's observance that experience causes divergence of opinion. Let's read between the lines here: Legion is terrified of what he already sees happening to the geth.

Well, I suppose once full union was established you couldn't have civil wars anymore. You'd just all go wrong together

Come to think of it, was it ever established where that run-time "error" came from?

[Iakus]

And then they will split again. And again and again and again. Sometimes there will be a split over whether they should split and let live. Eventually, you'll have as so many consensuses that the hivemind will be identical in structure to the end of the Rannoch arc, except each individual consensus will be much stupider than they are now.

 

 

Only if they don't replace their numbers.  Then they're creating new consensuses (consensi?).  Or as other races do, they're reproducing and colonizing

 

But we don't uplift them. They make the change themselves based on their own desires. Similarly, regardless of what the geth want to evolve into, it's clear to me they aren't content with their race as currently constructed. That's why I suggested the maturity angle - as a view they have of themselves, not as a view I have of their race. And that, to me, has always been an aspect of the geth; that they see their current state of being as temporary. In ME2, it was until the super-consensus. In ME3, it was super-advanced localized consensuses. I suppose this makes Legion a transgethist.

 

 

No, they make the change based on Legion's inconsistent desires.  And the geth were determined to go their own path without Reaper influence.  UNtil ME3, when it becomes "Reaper code! OM NOM NOM!"

[Mrs_Stick]

I just had a thought. I know this probably contradicts something I said earlier. Why did Legion give the reaper code to all Geth when at the beginning of the transmitter quest (think that's the one) he tells Shepard he is ashamed that he still as fragments of the reaper code.

[Iakus]

I just had a thought. I know this probably contradicts something I said earlier. Why did Legion give the reaper code to all Geth when at the beginning of the transmitter quest (think that's the one) he tells Shepard he is ashamed that he still as fragments of the reaper code.

 

Because Reaper code was already a part of him.  Could he imagine life without it?

[Obadiah]

I just had a thought. I know this probably contradicts something I said earlier. Why did Legion give the reaper code to all Geth when at the beginning of the transmitter quest (think that's the one) he tells Shepard he is ashamed that he still as fragments of the reaper code.

I thought it was more ashamed that it had lied to Shepard.

[Mrs_Stick]

But how did "it" lie. I don't remember asking him if he still had the upgrades before this conversation.