Aller au contenu

Photo

Writing failures in the Rannoch arc (by AssaultSloth)


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
1331 réponses à ce sujet

#326
Aimi

Aimi
  • Members
  • 4 616 messages

civilians would have surrendered. I'm sorry to disagree with the die hard "fight to the last man/woman/child" people here. Perhaps remaining military would have fought to the last, but civilians outnumber military in the society. The entire planet would not be toxic. Instead of being moved to non-toxic areas, they were slaughtered by the geth.


To keep going on this point...

In human history, it's essentially impossible to find any examples of an entire society that fought and lost a war and was completely destroyed for its pains. Pretty much every single time, people surrender rather than choose Götterdämmerung.

An example: the classical city of Qarthadast. Its empire fought several wars against the Roman Republic, and in the last one, the Romans besieged and assaulted the city itself. The final battle was full of gruesome urban warfare, as Roman legionaries slaughtered combatants and noncombatants in the streets, moved house-to-house, and even used makeshift bridges to go over the rooftops. When the Romans chose to memorialize the siege of Qarthadast in later years, many of them claimed that the city's inhabitants had been massacred and that the city itself was razed.

But of course that wasn't true. As the fighting in Qarthadast dragged on into a second day, religious representatives managed to surrender the bulk of the population into Roman hands. Tens of thousands of people marched off into slavery rather than face the flames. Only a few holdouts were left, and it was these who were massacred (although even some of them tried to surrender). Even the city was not totally razed: the site remained inhabited for centuries.

Or, for a more modern example, look at Paraguay. In the War of the Triple Alliance in the 1860s, Paraguay faced off alone against Brazil, Argentina, and Uruguay, and it was catastrophically defeated. Before the war, Paraguay had a population of slightly less than half a million people. But the Paraguayan dictatorship stayed in the fight until an incredible sixty percent of the population had been killed. Only about 150,000 individuals were still alive in Paraguay at the end of the war, almost all of whom were women and children. Some have estimated that up to ninety percent of the adult male population of the country died in the war. In terms of percentages of the overall population, it was the most destructive war in modern history. And, in fact, many - if not most - of those deaths were not actually due to fighting. This was before the adoption of rudimentary antiseptic procedures, and predated most efforts at sanitation. Most casualties were due to disease and infection, not combat deaths.

It's telling that there's no recorded instance of an entire people fighting to the death. It's incredibly telling that an event in which a "mere" sixty percent of a country's population died is unparalleled in the annals of modern history. What happened to Paraguay was not only far less of a disaster than we are positing for the quarians, it was still, despite its inhuman magnitude, an outlier in human wars. When societies see ten or fifteen percent of the population die in war, as did the Soviet Union and China in the 1930s and 1940s, it's treated as a nearly apocalyptic event.

So if the quarians fought such that 99% of the population was killed, and none of these quarians surrendered or tried to do so, that would be an event essentially without historical parallel. You could certainly explain it, and I don't mean to suggest that it is inexplicable without resorting to a claim that geth killed surrendering and noncombatant quarians outright, but there is absolutely nothing in human history or human experience that could allow you to do so.
  • Fayfel, SporkFu, CronoDragoon et 11 autres aiment ceci

#327
DeinonSlayer

DeinonSlayer
  • Members
  • 8 441 messages
Great post, Eirene, but I doubt it will be taken into consideration. There are those so wholly taken in by the notion of Geth innocence that they'll envision a rifle in the hands of every last man, woman, and child solely to justify the act of killing them.

You can't get 99% of any given population to agree on the color of the sky, much less commit to a single cause.

Even the 99% figure is deceptive. That 1% who survived are the ones who managed to secure passage off-world. The Quarians are extinct on their homeworld and colonies. The true death rate for Quarians under Geth jurisdiction is 100%.
  • Sir DeLoria aime ceci

#328
shodiswe

shodiswe
  • Members
  • 4 999 messages
90% could have died from famine, disease and their immunological problems. I immagine even the slightest malnutrition to a quarian would be dissasterous to their immunesystem. Nevermind toxins and radiation.

We arn't talking about humans here, we're talking about a people that pretty much topples over dead breathing regular air these days.

Surely they had guns, otherwise an agricultural Geth from a farm wouldn't have been able to pickup a heavy sniperrifle. All those Geth must have armed themselves, weapons were likely widespread. Those who didn't fight as ordered would have died as secondary casulties or to disease and famine.
The Black death killed about 30–60% of Europes population, without any wars. The numbers are kind of sketchy. But the point is, these are Quarians.

Otherwise it seems the rebellion would have stopped before it began if the Quarian military controled all the weapons.

It's just as belivable as the headcannon saying the Geth went door to door killing all Quarians with a bullet to the head.

It would have been impossible for the Quarians to run any type of farming given that there wasn't a frontline, it was a guerilla war and both sides were everywhere. There were no safe areas other than the inside of military bunkers, that could get bombed.

If the Geth did go house to house then that would likely be because that's what the Quarians did before they started using such tactics. House to house killing unarmed geth with the use of bullets. which is documented.
Whatever was or might have been done to the Quarians they did it first to the Geth themselves.

There are many way to die in such a situation, armed conflict, nuclear weapons, diseses, famine, toxins and chemical weapons, radiation, or a combination of all of the above.

Despite having had 300 years the Geth arn't done cleaning it up, and the world looks like a desert with a few rocks, and an ocean.

#329
TheOneTrueBioticGod

TheOneTrueBioticGod
  • Members
  • 1 110 messages

"Documented."

In a way that is completely believable and has absolutely no way to be either falsified or biased. 


  • DeinonSlayer aime ceci

#330
von uber

von uber
  • Members
  • 5 525 messages
The point you keep missing is that did not have drastically reduced immune systems until the geth wiped them out and kicked them off.
I don't see why it's easy to see the quarians being genocidal but not the geth. The only way 99% of the population died over every single colony and the homeworld is if the geth killed every single one of them, through direct or indirect means.
  • sH0tgUn jUliA aime ceci

#331
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 291 messages

90% could have died from famine, disease and their immunological problems. I immagine even the slightest malnutrition to a quarian would be dissasterous to their immunesystem. Nevermind toxins and radiation.

99% across all quarian planets?  No.

 

 

The only plausible explanation is a systematic extermination by the geth.  The only question is whether this was a mechanized genocide ala the Holocaust where civilians were rounded up and butchered in camps, or if this was more akin to the Rwandan genocide where armed bands were responsible for most of the deaths in executions, or the Einsatzgrueppen (the mobile SS regiments that followed regular army units)



#332
von uber

von uber
  • Members
  • 5 525 messages
For that kill rate in a short time would have to be mechanised, or chemical/biological attacks.

#333
DeinonSlayer

DeinonSlayer
  • Members
  • 8 441 messages
@Steelcan
"Cleanup crews. The Geth never learned to take survivors."

@Uber
"We maintain platforms to clear rubble and toxins from the Morning War."

Make of it what you will.
  • Ryriena aime ceci

#334
Mrs_Stick

Mrs_Stick
  • Members
  • 874 messages
Why must we all keep blaming both sides for pass sins?
(I am including myself in this as well)

#335
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 291 messages

For that kill rate in a short time would have to be mechanised, or chemical/biological attacks.

not necessarily, the main limiting factor for the roving bands of soldiers was access to the population, and if the geth are overrunning the quarians that is readily available.

 

And the geth wouldn't ever be capable of taking pity on those they are killing.



#336
shodiswe

shodiswe
  • Members
  • 4 999 messages
We know the Quarian plan was a few billion dead Geth in a couple of weeks back in the Morning war(every last one of them). Same in ME3. In both cases they were the agressors. Geth however cant die from starvation or dissease, so any Geth deathe would be attributed to physical violence comitted by Quarians.

Quarian deaths in such a war could have been due to many different factors. In the end it was the Quarians that set the bar for the morals in the war. The Quarians were the first to organise death squads, the Quarians don't even deny it, they just deny that the Geth were worthy of any kind of regard or mercy.

The Geth were Untermench, the Quarians were the Ubermench that orderd their extermination. Then it backfired and they had a 1 year long war on their hands. The Geth were never enthusiastic abotu going to war but they did what they had to do. Once the last Quarians left they didn't persue.

I'm pretty sure the Quarians would have persued the Geth if they had been forced to try and escape. The Quarians goal was the extermination of th Geth, the Geth's goal was survival.

#337
Guest_Trust_*

Guest_Trust_*
  • Guests

Well... I see this thread has made some interesting turns since my last visit.

 

Some extra food for thought.

 

Legion: The krogan chose to bomb their own world into this condition. The creators were not so aggressive during the Morning War.

Tali: We expected to get our worlds back! We didn't want to destroy them.

Legion: We are glad you did not. You could not endure the conditions krogan thrive in.



#338
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 291 messages

We know the Quarian plan was a few billion dead Geth in a couple of weeks back in the Morning war(every last one of them). Same in ME3. In both cases they were the agressors. Geth however cant die from starvation or dissease, so any Geth deathe would be attributed to physical violence comitted by Quarians.

Quarian deaths in such a war could have been due to many different factors. In the end it was the Quarians that set the bar for the morals in the war. The Quarians were the first to organise death squads, the Quarians don't even deny it, they just deny that the Geth were worthy of any kind of regard or mercy.

The Geth were Untermench, the Quarians were the Ubermench that orderd their extermination. Then it backfired and they had a 1 year long war on their hands. The Geth were never enthusiastic abotu going to war but they did what they had to do. Once the last Quarians left they didn't persue.

I'm pretty sure the Quarians would have persued the Geth if they had been forced to try and escape. The Quarians goal was the extermination of th Geth, the Geth's goal was survival.

All of the quarian deaths during the war would have been attributable to the geth, if the geth deployed a chemical weapon the geth aren't actually doing the killing,  but they are responsible for it.

 

The quarians also believed they were fighting a war for surivival when first turning on the geth, and shortly afterwards it was a fight for survival that unparalleled numbers of quarians died in.

 

The geth were certainly enthusiastic in making sure no quarians remained on Rannoch, then they pondered whether to kill the last ones but before they made up their minds the quarians escaped.



#339
SporkFu

SporkFu
  • Members
  • 6 921 messages

A certain blue-skinned shadow-broker -- not mentioning any names -- projected that it would only take the reapers a hundred or so years to harvest the entire galaxy, and yes I know they don't harvest all living beings. It only took the geth a few days to manufacture enough platforms to take over the Alerei and kill everyone on board. Plus, the geth only had a handful of planets to deal with, and they had three hundred years to do it. In that time, I could see them wiping out all the quarians that disease and starvation didn't. 



#340
shodiswe

shodiswe
  • Members
  • 4 999 messages

"Documented."

In a way that is completely believable and has absolutely no way to be either falsified or biased.


So, how were they supposed to kill the Geth? Ask them nicely to kill themselves? Even if you don't belive the Geth records the Quarian Admirals admits that they wanted to kill of the Geth, Tali admits it. What they don't want to admit is that it was wrong. I find it strange that people here are objecting to things that were established in game, without question.

If you got a problem with how the writes wrote this thing then thats another issue. The Writers could have written that there wern't that many Quarians to begin with due to their healthconditions and the barren arid environment of their homeworld that had limited their population size. Instead they said nothing.

#341
shodiswe

shodiswe
  • Members
  • 4 999 messages

Well... I see this thread has made some interesting turns since my last visit.
 
Some extra food for thought.
 
Legion: The krogan chose to bomb their own world into this condition. The creators were not so aggressive during the Morning War.
Tali: We expected to get our worlds back! We didn't want to destroy them.
Legion: We are glad you did not. You could not endure the conditions krogan thrive in.


I've heard that before, but that doesn't say they didn't use tactical nukes and a few nukes. The Krogans pretty much glassed their whole world and rendered it into a nuclear desert. Large areas of Tuchanka has lethal radiation.
The only livable areas are underground caverns and some areas that the Salarians helped terrform around the equator.
Tuchanka was a total loss. The pharse "Not so agressive" has a relative meaning if ever there was one. It doesn't excude their use, just a more careful approach.

There would have been nothing for the Geth to clean up if such weapons wern't used during the war. Spending 300 years cleaning up things that wern't used wouldn't make sense.

I guess it's possilbe that untended fission reactors could have core meltdowns. But it sounds like it was more than that.

#342
shodiswe

shodiswe
  • Members
  • 4 999 messages

All of the quarian deaths during the war would have been attributable to the geth, if the geth deployed a chemical weapon the geth aren't actually doing the killing,  but they are responsible for it.
 
The quarians also believed they were fighting a war for surivival when first turning on the geth, and shortly afterwards it was a fight for survival that unparalleled numbers of quarians died in.
 
The geth were certainly enthusiastic in making sure no quarians remained on Rannoch, then they pondered whether to kill the last ones but before they made up their minds the quarians escaped.


There was no war until the Quarians started it, the Geth were even slow to understand what was going on, they were doing everything for the Quarians and serving them faithfully and suddenly the Quarians were spraying them with bulletholes.

The Quarians delusions were their own problem, just as as the delusions that started WW2.

If Aliens were going house to house killing all humans, then I'm pretty sure you would try to resist or avoid them when they knock on your door. Failing that you would likely beg for your life like those Geth in those videos.
Then they would open fire and you would go quiet one last and final time.

#343
CronoDragoon

CronoDragoon
  • Members
  • 10 413 messages
Well sure, I don't think anyone blames the geth for fighting back. Its just a question of where the 99% death toll came from.

#344
shodiswe

shodiswe
  • Members
  • 4 999 messages

Well sure, I don't think anyone blames the geth for fighting back. Its just a question of where the 99% death toll came from.


Least it's lower than the 100% the Quarians were going for ;)

Whatever the reasons were.

#345
DeinonSlayer

DeinonSlayer
  • Members
  • 8 441 messages

So, how were they supposed to kill the Geth? Ask them nicely to kill themselves? Even if you don't belive the Geth records the Quarian Admirals admits that they wanted to kill of the Geth, Tali admits it. What they don't want to admit is that it was wrong. I find it strange that people here are objecting to things that were established in game, without question.If you got a problem with how the writes wrote this thing then thats another issue. The Writers could have written that there wern't that many Quarians to begin with due to their healthconditions and the barren arid environment of their homeworld that had limited their population size. Instead they said nothing.

Tali in ME2, on why the Quarians never tried to reclaim their homeworld, explained that a lot of Quarians feel guilty about what was done to the Geth. They go back in ME3 because it's the only way they can survive as a species.

The ME1 codex says that the Quarians are reluctant to discuss it with outsiders (on account of the abuse they frequently face), but admit to themselves that their own actions cost them the homeworld.

#346
Sir DeLoria

Sir DeLoria
  • Members
  • 5 246 messages

The Quarians were the first to organise death squads, the Quarians don't even deny it,

Wut?

they just deny that the Geth were worthy of any kind of regard or mercy.The Geth were Untermench, the Quarians were the Ubermench that orderd their extermination.


Please, the word is "Mensch" and that term implies the target is human (Mensch is German for human). Well, Geth aren't even organic or developed sufficiently. But fine, you can go ahead and call Siri an "Untermensch" from now on.

#347
Sir DeLoria

Sir DeLoria
  • Members
  • 5 246 messages
Btw, there was an easy example that showed that the Geth did specifically target civilians.

Adas, the small mining colony was completely overrun in no time. There was no serious resistance and yet the Geth killed the entire civilian population in record time.

#348
shodiswe

shodiswe
  • Members
  • 4 999 messages
All we need now is another codex entry that tells us exactly how many Quarians doed from a bllet, disease, famines, combination, suicide, killed by the Quarian government, secondary casulty "or" death by ethnic cleasing in concentration camps or from deathsquads like the oens that the Quarians had introdused and taught the Geth about.

In the end it doesn't matter much, the Quarians started it so they are the guilty party, case closed imo. I go for peace when possible.

But I must say those Admirals anoy the hell out of me. They keep trying to kill Shepard, go back on their word and cause no end of trouble in general.

That's enough for me tonight. I need a drink and then I'm off to bed, I'm feeling like a sick Quarian atm... See you later.
I don't hate Quarians, but I do think everything it's mostly their fault. In fact, mosly the leaderships fault, the Quarians seem like they would do anythign for thier leaders, no matter how wrong they think it is.
That dying Civilian talks about loyalty to their leadrs while cursing them, it seems like an extremely unhealthy attitude.
Complete obedience must be breed to the bones among Quarians.

#349
shodiswe

shodiswe
  • Members
  • 4 999 messages

Btw, there was an easy example that showed that the Geth did specifically target civilians.

Adas, the small mining colony was completely overrun in no time. There was no serious resistance and yet the Geth killed the entire civilian population in record time.


It only says they died, also, they had likely tried to kill the Geth aswell, the order was distributed to all Quarian worlds and communities. I'm guessing the Geth resistance to their termination was quite fierce and the Quarians paid the price.

#350
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 683 messages

To keep going on this point...

In human history, it's essentially impossible to find any examples of an entire society that fought and lost a war and was completely destroyed for its pains. Pretty much every single time, people surrender rather than choose Götterdämmerung.

An example: the classical city of Qarthadast. Its empire fought several wars against the Roman Republic, and in the last one, the Romans besieged and assaulted the city itself. The final battle was full of gruesome urban warfare, as Roman legionaries slaughtered combatants and noncombatants in the streets, moved house-to-house, and even used makeshift bridges to go over the rooftops. When the Romans chose to memorialize the siege of Qarthadast in later years, many of them claimed that the city's inhabitants had been massacred and that the city itself was razed.

But of course that wasn't true. As the fighting in Qarthadast dragged on into a second day, religious representatives managed to surrender the bulk of the population into Roman hands. Tens of thousands of people marched off into slavery rather than face the flames. Only a few holdouts were left, and it was these who were massacred (although even some of them tried to surrender). Even the city was not totally razed: the site remained inhabited for centuries.

Or, for a more modern example, look at Paraguay. In the War of the Triple Alliance in the 1860s, Paraguay faced off alone against Brazil, Argentina, and Uruguay, and it was catastrophically defeated. Before the war, Paraguay had a population of slightly less than half a million people. But the Paraguayan dictatorship stayed in the fight until an incredible sixty percent of the population had been killed. Only about 150,000 individuals were still alive in Paraguay at the end of the war, almost all of whom were women and children. Some have estimated that up to ninety percent of the adult male population of the country died in the war. In terms of percentages of the overall population, it was the most destructive war in modern history. And, in fact, many - if not most - of those deaths were not actually due to fighting. This was before the adoption of rudimentary antiseptic procedures, and predated most efforts at sanitation. Most casualties were due to disease and infection, not combat deaths.

It's telling that there's no recorded instance of an entire people fighting to the death. It's incredibly telling that an event in which a "mere" sixty percent of a country's population died is unparalleled in the annals of modern history. What happened to Paraguay was not only far less of a disaster than we are positing for the quarians, it was still, despite its inhuman magnitude, an outlier in human wars. When societies see ten or fifteen percent of the population die in war, as did the Soviet Union and China in the 1930s and 1940s, it's treated as a nearly apocalyptic event.

So if the quarians fought such that 99% of the population was killed, and none of these quarians surrendered or tried to do so, that would be an event essentially without historical parallel. You could certainly explain it, and I don't mean to suggest that it is inexplicable without resorting to a claim that geth killed surrendering and noncombatant quarians outright, but there is absolutely nothing in human history or human experience that could allow you to do so.

Eirene, have I ever mentioned how much I appreciate learning new things almost every time you post?


  • sH0tgUn jUliA, DeinonSlayer et KaiserShep aiment ceci