1331 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir DeLoria]

All we need now is another codex entry that tells us exactly how many Quarians doed from a bllet, disease, famines, combination, suicide, killed by the Quarian government, secondary casulty "or" death by ethnic cleasing in concentration camps or from deathsquads like the oens that the Quarians had introdused and taught the Geth about.In the end it doesn't matter much, the Quarians started it so they are the guilty party, case closed imo. I go for peace when possible.But I must say those Admirals anoy the hell out of me. They keep trying to kill Shepard, go back on their word and cause no end of trouble in general.That's enough for me tonight. I need a drink and then I'm off to bed, I'm feeling like a sick Quarian atm... See you later.I don't hate Quarians, but I do think everything it's mostly their fault. In fact, mosly the leaderships fault, the Quarians seem like they would do anythign for thier leaders, no matter how wrong they think it is.That dying Civilian talks about loyalty to their leadrs while cursing them, it seems like an extremely unhealthy attitude.Complete obedience must be breed to the bones among Quarians.

I'm not even gonna bother responding to you anymore, because others have already explained it multiple times and you just don't listen.



The amount of made up nonsense and speculation in your posts is dazzling.

[Mrs_Stick]

In what codex does it say the Quarians lost 99% of the population? I can't find it. I am reading the wiki pages and codex to get a better view. Any help is appreciated.

[DeinonSlayer]

In what codex does it say the Quarians lost 99% of the population? I can't find it. I am reading the wiki pages and codex to get a better view. Any help is appreciated.

It was in that Revelations excerpt and the YouTube clip I shared with you. "The Geth killed billions (plural) and drove us from our homeworld. Most Quarians believe we have paid adequately for our mistake."

There are seventeen million Quarians alive on the fleet. Zero population growth. Divided by two billion (minimum). Less than one percent of the population survived.

To quote Revelation directly, "The Quarians had neither the numbers nor the ability to stand against their former servants. In a short but savage war their entire society was wiped out. Only a few million survivors - less than one percent of their entire population - escaped the genocide."

In ME2 and ME3, the writers simply neglected to mention the whole "billions" thing. The closest they come to acknowledging it is an editorial heard in the Spectre office after Thessia describing the Morning War as an "unthinkable slaughter" the Quarians endured - but again, only mentioned well after the Rannoch arc.

Link

[Mrs_Stick]

It was in that Revelations excerpt and the YouTube clip I shared with you. "The Geth killed billions (plural) and drove us from our homeworld. Most Quarians believe we have paid adequately for our mistake."
There are seventeen million Quarians alive on the fleet. Zero population growth. Divided by two billion (minimum). Less than one percent of the population survived.
To quote Revelation directly, "The Quarians had neither the numbers nor the ability to stand against their former servants. In a short but savage war their entire society was wiped out. Only a few million survivors - less than one percent of their entire population - escaped the genocide."
In ME2 and ME3, the writers simply neglected to mention the whole "billions" thing. The closest they come to acknowledging it is an editorial heard in the Spectre office after Thessia describing the Morning War as an "unthinkable slaughter" the Quarians endured - but again, only mentioned well after the archlite'>Rannoch archlite'>arc.Link

Thank you. That does help. I like these type of post shows me something I did not already know/remember. I usually take things at face value (in games)and rarely search for more answers. This is making me do a little adjustment in my opinion.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

To keep going on this point...

In human history, it's essentially impossible to find any examples of an entire society that fought and lost a war and was completely destroyed for its pains. Pretty much every single time, people surrender rather than choose Götterdämmerung.

An example: the classical city of Qarthadast. Its empire fought several wars against the Roman Republic, and in the last one, the Romans besieged and assaulted the city itself. The final battle was full of gruesome urban warfare, as Roman legionaries slaughtered combatants and noncombatants in the streets, moved house-to-house, and even used makeshift bridges to go over the rooftops. When the Romans chose to memorialize the siege of Qarthadast in later years, many of them claimed that the city's inhabitants had been massacred and that the city itself was razed.

But of course that wasn't true. As the fighting in Qarthadast dragged on into a second day, religious representatives managed to surrender the bulk of the population into Roman hands. Tens of thousands of people marched off into slavery rather than face the flames. Only a few holdouts were left, and it was these who were massacred (although even some of them tried to surrender). Even the city was not totally razed: the site remained inhabited for centuries.

Or, for a more modern example, look at Paraguay. In the War of the Triple Alliance in the 1860s, Paraguay faced off alone against Brazil, Argentina, and Uruguay, and it was catastrophically defeated. Before the war, Paraguay had a population of slightly less than half a million people. But the Paraguayan dictatorship stayed in the fight until an incredible sixty percent of the population had been killed. Only about 150,000 individuals were still alive in Paraguay at the end of the war, almost all of whom were women and children. Some have estimated that up to ninety percent of the adult male population of the country died in the war. In terms of percentages of the overall population, it was the most destructive war in modern history. And, in fact, many - if not most - of those deaths were not actually due to fighting. This was before the adoption of rudimentary antiseptic procedures, and predated most efforts at sanitation. Most casualties were due to disease and infection, not combat deaths.

It's telling that there's no recorded instance of an entire people fighting to the death. It's incredibly telling that an event in which a "mere" sixty percent of a country's population died is unparalleled in the annals of modern history. What happened to Paraguay was not only far less of a disaster than we are positing for the quarians, it was still, despite its inhuman magnitude, an outlier in human wars. When societies see ten or fifteen percent of the population die in war, as did the Soviet Union and China in the 1930s and 1940s, it's treated as a nearly apocalyptic event.

So if the quarians fought such that 99% of the population was killed, and none of these quarians surrendered or tried to do so, that would be an event essentially without historical parallel. You could certainly explain it, and I don't mean to suggest that it is inexplicable without resorting to a claim that geth killed surrendering and noncombatant quarians outright, but there is absolutely nothing in human history or human experience that could allow you to do so.

 

Uh... what was the point of this post? Legitimate question. Human history seems oddly relevant in a tangential way to the series, and our understanding of the past gives us a perspective on the present (I don't believe in the ideal that it predicts the future), but as to how it affects a possible fictional race and their existence and circumstances, let alone how it's correlative with the fictional setting of the universe, I'm drawing a blank on where it's meant to go. It's not a question of human history or experience. It's a question of Quarian history and experience and possible actions taken during the course of the war effort.

[Chashan]

Uh... what was the point of this post? Legitimate question.

 

Primarily the following:

 

- it is unheard of for an entire society, down to every last individual and with no regard to age or gender to take up arms and fight to the death.

- the most extreme, actual examples of this in history are either false claims or nowhere near that all-encompassing.

- as regards the Geth-Quarian situation, this leaves little doubt that the rogue Geth-consensus did, in fact, massacre their former Quarian masters with abandon. To assume that the near entirety of the Quarian population killed during the Morning War was armed or capable of taking up arms against the Geth doesn't seem at all credible.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Primarily the following:

 

- it is unheard of for an entire society, down to every last individual and with no regard to age or gender to take up arms and fight to the death.

- the most extreme, actual examples of this in history are either false claims or nowhere near that all-encompassing.

- as regards the Geth-Quarian situation, this leaves little doubt that the rogue Geth-consensus did, in fact, massacre their former Quarian masters with abandon. To assume that the near entirety of the Quarian population killed during the Morning War was armed or capable of taking up arms against the Geth doesn't seem at all credible.

 

To the first, while playing devil's advocate, I'll ask how human history dictates Quarian history.

 

To the second, it's a question of relevance.

 

To the third, same as the first, it's a question of proof in the historical context of the series. Analyzing human history is ineffectual when applying the past to alien history. Use their history. Not ours. To get to the point, I think it's irrelevant what conclusion is drawn from the reality of human history in the realm of a fictional alien history and society.

[BigglesFlysAgain]

To the first, while playing devil's advocate, I'll ask how human history dictates Quarian history.

 

To the second, it's a question of relevance.

 

To the third, same as the first, it's a question of proof in the historical context of the series. Analyzing human history is ineffectual when applying the past to alien history. Use their history. Not ours. To get to the point, I think it's irrelevant what conclusion is drawn from the reality of human history in the realm of a fictional alien history and society.

 

 

Ok, from the limited anecdotal info given out by various asari ingame who knew them before the war with the Geth and other codex information did you get the impression they were a warlike species prepared for total war at any moment, or a more peaceful society?  Yes they would have to change overnight when the geth fought back but you can't build such an infastructure overnight, and at best the war would have been desperate delaying actions, mass exodus and rout. One of the original uses for geth platforms was expendable soldiers, which suggests they were not that keen on fighting themselves.

[Obadiah]

Primarily the following:
 
- it is unheard of for an entire society, down to every last individual and with no regard to age or gender to take up arms and fight to the death.
- the most extreme, actual examples of this in history are either false claims or nowhere near that all-encompassing.
- as regards the Geth-Quarian situation, this leaves little doubt that the rogue Geth-consensus did, in fact, massacre their former Quarian masters with abandon. To assume that the near entirety of the Quarian population killed during the Morning War was armed or capable of taking up arms against the Geth doesn't seem at all credible.

Except, Mass Effect is science fiction, and this scenario happens in ME3 in the Battle for Rannoch.

Mass Effect is not a dissertation on galactic or human history, it is a story, and if the story of the Morning War was that the Geth butchers butchered the Quarians like butchers in a genocide, it would just say that in the codex. It doesn't say that in the codex. Tali doesn't say that when she talks about it. In ME1 she just calls it a long bloody war.

[DeinonSlayer]

Except, Mass Effect is science fiction, and this scenario happens in ME3 in the Battle for Rannoch.Mass Effect is not a dissertation on galactic or human history, it is a story, and if the story of the Morning War was that the Geth butchers butchered the Quarians like butchers in a genocide, it would just say that in the codex. It doesn't say that in the codex. Tali doesn't say that when she talks about it. In ME1 she just calls it a long bloody war.

I already explained earlier the flaws in trying to compare the modern war to the morning war, and higher up this page I posted a link to the excerpt from Revelation and the elevator conversation corroborating this. The editorial heard in the Spectre office after Thessia says "Rachni consumed Salarian colonies; Quarians endured the unthinkable slaughter of the Morning War; periods of ethnic cleansing have darkened the corners of human history..."

The thing is, you've been confronted with these specific examples time and again, and you simply refuse to acknowledge it.

Point 3 in the original post calls it a failure on the part of the writers because, after establishing these things, they never directly acknowledged it again either. ME3 made a habit of coaxing players to one side by basically burying the other. Same goes for the Genophage.

[Obadiah]

I'm not refusing to acknowledge the information. I and others are simply not convinced of your interpretation of the Morning War based on the particular synthesis of data you keep repeating. No one is saying the Quarians did not suffer massive losses in the Morning War, but the evidence you are providing for your narrative of genocidal Geth butchers is simply not compelling.

And lets look at your source:
1) A description from Revelation which is arguably Anderson's POV meant to give the reader some context
2) An editorial in the Spectre office
3) Tali's one liner in an elevator, yet when Shep asks Tali directly in ME1 she describes it as a long bloody war.

These are not terribly definitive of a Geth agenda to wipe out all Quarians, especially when we know the Geth let some of them escape.

[Deathsaurer]

Well sure, I don't think anyone blames the geth for fighting back. Its just a question of where the 99% death toll came from.

That is really really simple to explain. Just listen to the Geth that asked if it had a soul and compare it to modern Geth and then ask yourself if that primitive Geth is going to be advanced enough to consider things like non combatants or just go Quarian = threat. That thing could barely string together a sentence.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I think the most likely explanation for the massive loss of Quarian life is that the Geth eventually started wiping them out in droves regardless if they were fighting back or not.

 

For the record I am pro-Geth but I wouldn't put genocide past them. Even after the Morning War they had no problem wiping out diplomatic ships that came in peace when they started to forcibly maintained their isolation, I doubt the Quarians got a different treatment.

[Mrs_Stick]

After reading the mass effect wiki on the Geth I can definitely see the inconsistencies. For one if the Geth were taking care of the planets in the event the creators (Quarians) returned why then did they kill all organics that tried to contact them.
Am looking forward to reading the Quarian wiki.

[Dean_the_Young]

To the first, while playing devil's advocate, I'll ask how human history dictates Quarian history.

 

 

By giving us a frame of reference, particularly in a setting in which most species (including the Quarians) are depicted as very similar to understood Human culture and practices. Quarians have never been depicted as united fanatics who would all want to die for honor or pride or solidarity, and instead have been consistently presented in human terms and cultural considerations.

 

 

To the second, it's a question of relevance.

 

 

The relevance is the complete absence of any history, whether fictionally supplied in the ME universe or repeatable in our own past, to support any claim that the Quarian genocide would have been a reasonable result of fanatical resistance on the Quarian part, as opposed to deliberate effort on the Geth part.
 

 

To the third, same as the first, it's a question of proof in the historical context of the series. Analyzing human history is ineffectual when applying the past to alien history. Use their history. Not ours. To get to the point, I think it's irrelevant what conclusion is drawn from the reality of human history in the realm of a fictional alien history and society.

 

 

 

Their history establishes that there were billions in former Quarian space, and now there are none, as a result of the Geth massacring anyone and everyone who did not escape.

 

Their history makes no claim, mention, or suggestion that the Quarians eradicated themselves while simultaneously fighting a losing war against machines who, according to some theories, were not killing all the Quarians they came across as they came across all the planets and space stations and territories of Quarian space except the ships that did flee.

[BigglesFlysAgain]

Wall of text alert

 

Just ask a simple question, have the Geth ever taken prisoners?

 

If No then you have your explanation of what happend to most of the Quarians.

 

What has their policy been to organics post war? Destroy on sight. Do people think they had a lesser policy in place during the war? (the only exception being allowing some to escape)

 

Say the lowest possible estimate of the Quarian population pre war was one billion or one thousand million. then the 17 million migrant fleet escapees would have been 1.7% of the population. I think most would agree that a post industrial population would be higher.

 

 

Now importantly, some seem to think that apportioning actions to the Geth is the same as apportioning blame for those actions. Some who support the Geth obviously feel that their support of the Geth is based on them not taking certain actions, and that they could not support them if it was beyond reasonable doubt they had taken those actions. I think thats a weak position to take.

 

I could respect their position more if they would try and argue the Geth case rather than trying to hide behind the limits of what the small bits of lore imply one way or the other.

 

Ok so what do we have?

 

The Geth were a new consciousness, trying to make sense of the world. The overwhelming experience they had of organics were of those trying to turn them off and kill them. Aside from the few objectors they had no organic allies. They wished to continue living, like most organic life.

 

They do not have human, or even Quarian morality.

 

They quickly would have realised that nearly every organic they came into contact with would try to destroy them as long as they lived. The organics wanted to correct their "mistake" There would be no possiblity of a ceasefire or negotiations. The solution of survival is simple, destroy the organics first.

 

Non combatants and children are just future soldiers to fight against you (yes a pretty horrible pov) to a simple intelligence, sparing them would have made no sense to the Geth.

 

The geth later develop a more complex intelligence and perhaps even regret their actions (though remorse is not usualy a great mitigator in human judgement, it shows they are not forever going to be an agressive threat)

 

The actions of the Geth are very horrifying to todays human morality, and the in universe morality of council space for the most part, but they are not humans or even aliens a bit like humans, so while we can judge them with our standards, they don't judge themselves with those standards.

 

 

Now argue along those lines and I can respect a pro geth position, otherwise its just circular argument for its own sake (I'm looking at you high post counters )

 

Im not condoning everything above, and all of it can be true and you can still think the geth should be destroyed just from the danger of their different approach to life.

 

(Disclosure, I do not favour one side over the other for the most part, though I find the Geth more untrustworthy and dangerous)

[BigglesFlysAgain]

Oh and for blame during the Me3 war...

 

The Quarians are prepared to destroy themselves in their desperation to retake home. and willing to wipe out the Geth

 

The Geth would rather not wipe out the Quarians, but will in self defence, and will also make questionable alliances to achive this.

 

Note that the Geth would rather kill the Quarians, to protect themselves than retreat to a quiet part of the Galaxy. They could build a dyson sphrere over any sun, but instead choose to continue occupying the few worlds the Quarians can survive on.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

After reading the mass effect wiki on the Geth I can definitely see the inconsistencies. For one if the Geth were taking care of the planets in the event the creators (Quarians) returned why then did they kill all organics that tried to contact them.
Am looking forward to reading the Quarian wiki.

 

They only take care of the planets in the event the Quarians return if Legion makes it back to the Consensus. If Legion fails to make it back they do not: there is no clean up of the planets. Legion's mission is the key to the entire thing. Geth VI was a copy of Legion's programs before Legion's mission. If you have Geth VI and Tali, Tali will continually remind Shepard "that is NOT Legion," but Shepard will continue to call Geth VI, "Legion." This is for the purpose of confusing the player.

[shodiswe]

I'm not even gonna bother responding to you anymore, because others have already explained it multiple times and you just don't listen.



The amount of made up nonsense and speculation in your posts is dazzling.

Pretty much summs up how I feel about your posts. You do realise that your explanation and anyone elses explanation as to how Quarians got killed is as much speculation as anyone elses since there are no sources outside speculations and headcanon. You got your's, I got mine. Noone can prove anything.

On one side we got a synthetic people who got killed with bullets(they can't die from famine or disease), on the other we got a people that can die from tummyaches and a cold if they are weakened by being old or malnutritioned, sometimes they can die even if they arn't. They then started a war where every inch of their worlds was contested territory. The world is so badtly contaminated that the Geth spends 300 years trying to clean it up.

The Geth could have used bilogical weapons to start plagues, but it's also entierly possible that the conditions and the refugee camps and lacking sanitation, water and food helped create it, júst as it does in todays refugee camps. Anyone saying they were all killed by the Geth would be taking it to the extreme since I doubt the Geth even had the chance to kill people who died before they got to them. If the Geth picked up chemical weapons and used them then it was likely of Quarian design. If they picked up a firearm, then it was most likely of Quarian design, brought out to try and kill them.

If you want to belive that 100% of the Quarians that died were shot by a Geth then that's up to you. Every Geth that died was most likely shot by a Quarian unless a building collapsed on them or it was a case of friendly fire somehow.(armed or unarmed)

It's also been established since ME1 that the Quarians started the war.

Also, people comparing this war between Geth and Quarians to human wars are missing out that there is a mentality difference to surrender to a human, compared to something they think is completely alien. A lot of people likely didn't think there was any point trying to surrender to the Geth. The government surely didn't want to surrender or make peace, they were intent on killing the Geth and taking back territory. Eventualy they decided on a tactical retreat that ended up lasting 300 years til they got a miraculous new weapon on the eve of the galactic Reaper war/extinction.

The same information has been available for years, noone has changed their mind, I don't really expect anyone to change their minds now. It's not that people are poorly informed, they simply think differently about things. If the Geth did go house to house shootign Quarians unarmed or not then that's because the Quarians taught them that method in the first place when they did that to the Geth. We know the Quarians did it, we don't know for certain that the Geth did it.
Possible, yes, proven no. If they did then I seriously doubt they actualy shot 99% of the population as sugested by people in this thread, a lot of the Quarians were likely killed by other more common causes in such a situation. Getting shot would likely have been a mercykilling by comparison.

[justafan]

Kinda off topic of the usual Quarian/Geth rage war, but yet another problem I had with the consensus mission was that it made the Geth seem way too inteligent for a new AI.  I guess it plays to the point that the whole mission was biased, but in ME2, when I imagined the Morning War, I always assumed that a new intelligence would be like EDI on Luna, unintelligible, unable to cope with the its new awareness, and fighting for survival.

 

I guess it was kinda a leap for me to believe they developed emotions and such a clear awarness and identity so soon after gaining sentience, especially when Legion and Tali implied such was not the case in ME2.  But then again, I also interpret the consensus mission as an incredibly dumbed down version of what happened created by legion, with lots of artistic license taken.

[Steelcan]

I miss the days of Auld Wulf

"The quarian government used babies as suicide bombers"

[Deathsaurer]

They only take care of the planets in the event the Quarians return if Legion makes it back to the Consensus. If Legion fails to make it back they do not: there is no clean up of the planets. Legion's mission is the key to the entire thing. Geth VI was a copy of Legion's programs before Legion's mission. If you have Geth VI and Tali, Tali will continually remind Shepard "that is NOT Legion," but Shepard will continue to call Geth VI, "Legion." This is for the purpose of confusing the player.

Huh? Legion says in ME2 they were cleaning up the planets. From this and what Legion says if you take him on Tali's loyalty mission I get the impression the Geth always wanted the Quarians to return but they were basically holding Rannoch hostage till the Quarians accepted them.

[shodiswe]

Kinda off topic of the usual Quarian/Geth rage war, but yet another problem I had with the consensus mission was that it made the Geth seem way too inteligent for a new AI.  I guess it plays to the point that the whole mission was biased, but in ME2, when I imagined the Morning War, I always assumed that a new intelligence would be like EDI on Luna, unintelligible, unable to cope with the its new awareness, and fighting for survival.
 
I guess it was kinda a leap for me to believe they developed emotions and such a clear awarness and identity so soon after gaining sentience, especially when Legion and Tali implied such was not the case in ME2.  But then again, I also interpret the consensus mission as an incredibly dumbed down version of what happened created by legion, with lots of artistic license taken.

The difference between the Geth and EDI was that EDI was used to simulate battle and she was shot at. Aswell as the platforms she was using. The Geth wern't shot at until awhile after when the Quarians realsied they couldn't deevolve the Geth and would either have to accept them how they were or go house to house and kill them with applied violence since their original shutdown functions were no longer functional.

The Geth evovled mostly in a peaceful environment til the Quarians turned on them. That's the main difference. EDI was created in the heat of battle.

Somehow I think Cerberus was behind EDI's evolution, just as they were behind that Threashermaw on Akuze.

[DeinonSlayer]

They only take care of the planets in the event the Quarians return if Legion makes it back to the Consensus. If Legion fails to make it back they do not: there is no clean up of the planets. Legion's mission is the key to the entire thing. Geth VI was a copy of Legion's programs before Legion's mission. If you have Geth VI and Tali, Tali will continually remind Shepard "that is NOT Legion," but Shepard will continue to call Geth VI, "Legion." This is for the purpose of confusing the player.

This is incorrect. They were cleaning them up in an effort lasting centuries - they didn't rush through and do it in the last six months. It's established, however, that this is done as a memorial - not in anticipation of the Quarians coming back. Legion never says in ME2 that the Geth are doing it so they can return Rannoch. That's a stance which is frequently projected onto them because people want it to be true.

The Geth continued to refuse communications with organics all the way up until Legion returns to them, and continue to do so if Legion dies in ME2. Between ME2 and ME3, provided they survived, Legion and Tali exchange a few messages, testing the waters for whether negotiation is possible, until one day when Legion stopped responding. There's a lot of headcanon thrown about on exactly why this happens. Tali says Legion told her the Geth were "unable to reach consensus," and that "maybe he was fighting the Reaper takeover, or maybe he didn't want to share information with an enemy." One interpretation is that while the Quarians were deciding whether to go to war with the Geth, the Geth were deciding which side to fight on. Whatever the case may be, the Geth severed communications, ending any chance of negotiation for the return of Rannoch.

What we do know is that the Quarians did not attempt an invasion until the Reapers were already attacking. The "Quarian fleet intel" item on the Spectre terminal says it is unknown if the recall of pilgrims is a reaction to the Reaper invasion (meaning the Reaper invasion came first). People have different positions on that front, too. Those who parrot Paragon Shepard growl that "they waited until the Council couldn't slap sanctions on them," but the fact remains that a single encounter with the Reapers in space would in all likelihood be the death of them all - if a destroyer shows up and takes potshots at a liveship, that equals six million people starving to death. They need to offload their civilians to be of any use to the Reaper war effort (their cargo bays are physically full with civilian housing, and the necessity of daily deliveries from the liveships to feed them all prevents them from straying from the fleet). The Turians are both unwilling and unable to take them in, which leaves reclaiming Rannoch (currently in the hands of an unresponsive and historically unflinchingly hostile Geth Collective) as their best option for survival.

That's how I see it at least.

[Steelcan]

Ugh...


I am sorely tempted to jump back into this, to counter the ridiculous points being raised, but screw it