1331 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

I don't think it is so much buried as it is irrelevant. If you are right and the Geth committed genocide, that makes the Morning War a war where two sides attempt to commit genocide, the Quarians tried to first, and the Geth stopped short of it. As much as you insist on describing Quarian babies getting killed, you don't seem terribly concerned with whatever the equivalent is on the Geth side that undoubtedly were destroyed. The writers just avoided a really nasty pointless conversation.

We disagree on this and will continue to do so. Let's leave it at that.

[KaiserShep]

I miss the days of Auld Wulf

"The quarian government used babies as suicide bombers"

 

Oh man, I miss that joker.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

 

snip whatever about the cleanup stuff.....

 

Thanks for the correction. I mis-remembered.

[Deathsaurer]

I remember Tali saying she didn't understand everything about what her father was working on, but it seems a leap to me to conclude it involved Reaper tech. Where did the scientists say anything like that? I didn't see anything like that in the logs, only that Rael was the driving force behind its development (clearly, it didn't work well enough to prevent what happened on the Alarei). Where would he have gotten Reaper tech, anyway?

I didn't think Xen's flashbang was built off of Rael's work, either - his work was about taking control of them; her flashbang is more akin to what Legion does to keep the heretics confused when you board their station.

Hmm? The point of comparison was they're using other races/organizations as distractions to tie up resources. As Shepard put it they have us fighting each other instead of fighting them.

[DeinonSlayer]

Hmm? The point of comparison was they're using other races/organizations as distractions to tie up resources. As Shepard put it they have us fighting each other instead of fighting them.

Sorry, that was responding to Shodiswe's theory that Xen's flashbang was Reaper tech.

[Deathsaurer]

Ah my bad. I can't think of any reason it should be. Legion did practically the same thing on the Heretic station.

[Mrs_Stick]

This is incorrect. They were cleaning them up in an effort lasting centuries - they didn't rush through and do it in the last six months. It's established, however, that this is done as a memorial - not in anticipation of the Quarians coming back. Legion never says in ME2 that the Geth are doing it so they can return Rannoch. That's a stance which is frequently projected onto them because people want it to be true.

The Geth continued to refuse communications with organics all the way up until Legion returns to them, and continue to do so if Legion dies in ME2. Between ME2 and ME3, provided they survived, Legion and Tali exchange a few messages, testing the waters for whether negotiation is possible, until one day when Legion stopped responding. There's a lot of headcanon thrown about on exactly why this happens. Tali says Legion told her the Geth were "unable to reach consensus," and that "maybe he was fighting the Reaper takeover, or maybe he didn't want to share information with an enemy." One interpretation is that while the Quarians were deciding whether to go to war with the Geth, the Geth were deciding which side to fight on. Whatever the case may be, the Geth severed communications, ending any chance of negotiation for the return of Rannoch.

What we do know is that the Quarians did not attempt an invasion until the Reapers were already attacking. The "Quarian fleet intel" item on the Spectre terminal says it is unknown if the recall of pilgrims is a reaction to the Reaper invasion (meaning the Reaper invasion came first). People have different positions on that front, too. Those who parrot Paragon Shepard growl that "they waited until the Council couldn't slap sanctions on them," but the fact remains that a single encounter with the Reapers in space would in all likelihood be the death of them all - if a destroyer shows up and takes potshots at a liveship, that equals six million people starving to death. They need to offload their civilians to be of any use to the Reaper war effort (their cargo bays are physically full with civilian housing, and the necessity of daily deliveries from the liveships to feed them all prevents them from straying from the fleet). The Turians are both unwilling and unable to take them in, which leaves reclaiming Rannoch (currently in the hands of an unresponsive and historically unflinchingly hostile Geth Collective) as their best option for survival.

That's how I see it at least.

Culture Edit
Legion Character Shot 2The geth are reclusive and secretive. This is partly due to their synthetic nature: They have no need to interact with other races because they do not share the same goals, needs or instincts as organic species. As machines, comfort is also not a concern for them, something that is reflected in elements of geth ship and station design (e.g., minimal gravity, lack of windows, efficient use of space, function over form, lack of atmosphere, and absence of climate control).
According to Legion, geth do not actually live on any of the quarian planets they conquered, serving merely as caretakers for them instead. They find it more efficient to live on space stations and draw resources from asteroids, though they maintain mobile platforms on the worlds to clear rubble and toxins left by the Morning War. Legion likens this behavior to the human tendency to establish cemeteries and memorials to commemorate dead persons and tragic events. However, since geth do not "die" in any traditional sense (upon the destruction of a geth platform, its programs are simply transmitted to the nearest available platform) and so have no real losses to mourn from the Morning War, Legion posits that they instead clean and maintain the quarian worlds out of respect for their quarian creators who died in the conflict and in preparation for the eventuality of their return.

 

 

That is straight from the bioware wiki on the Geth.

[ImaginaryMatter]

They could have picked a dead system that was far of the beaten path, then keept it so secret that they didn't even tell the other familymembers where they went. If only the Admiralty know where they wen't they might have been safe.

There are far larger population centeres around the galaxy that the Reapers know about, therefor finding a few quarians that went of into deepspace at pretty mcuh an unknown time with an unknown destination would be a low priority mission this early in the war. Something they might engage in a few decades later when the the known population centres have been harvested and cleansed.
But at that point their war with the Geth would have been won or lost already.

 

This wouldn't work. For one the Migrant Fleet is not self sustaining, it is heavily reliant on trade and imports. Even if they were to go off the beaten path it would take a long time to become completely independent and self sustaining; before then there would be quite the stream of cargo ships moving to and from to maintain those needed supplies.

 

Also exploration is an expensive and risky undertaking. Even something like Ilos where people knew the location wasn't undertaken because it would take about a month to get there, a time too long to guarantee a successful travel and return. The Migrant Fleet would probably be in worse shape because, again, they are heavily reliant on constant trade to maintain the fleet.

[ImaginaryMatter]

If you look at it that way, the Reapers played both sides. If that was the writers' intent, it's actually pretty clever. Can't say for certain it was, though.

 

I think this is relevant. There's a lot of moments where we have to second guess the authors, which makes it hard to enjoy the story unfolding.

[DeinonSlayer]

Culture Edit
Legion Character Shot 2The geth are reclusive and secretive. This is partly due to their synthetic nature: They have no need to interact with other races because they do not share the same goals, needs or instincts as organic species. As machines, comfort is also not a concern for them, something that is reflected in elements of geth ship and station design (e.g., minimal gravity, lack of windows, efficient use of space, function over form, lack of atmosphere, and absence of climate control).
According to Legion, geth do not actually live on any of the quarian planets they conquered, serving merely as caretakers for them instead. They find it more efficient to live on space stations and draw resources from asteroids, though they maintain mobile platforms on the worlds to clear rubble and toxins left by the Morning War. Legion likens this behavior to the human tendency to establish cemeteries and memorials to commemorate dead persons and tragic events. However, since geth do not "die" in any traditional sense (upon the destruction of a geth platform, its programs are simply transmitted to the nearest available platform) and so have no real losses to mourn from the Morning War, Legion posits that they instead clean and maintain the quarian worlds out of respect for their quarian creators who died in the conflict and in preparation for the eventuality of their return.


That is straight from the bioware wiki on the Geth.

Anyone can edit a wiki - it isn't maintained by Bioware. I'd need to see either a codex entry or spoken lines to corroborate the part I bolded above - as you noted, it doesn't play nice with the Geth consistently killing emissaries and ignoring all hails up to and including the present day (all the way up to the renewed conflict in ME3 if Legion dies) as Revelation, ME1 dialogue, the ME2 codex and the description of Haestrom in ME2 and 3 establish. Not saying for certain it's wrong, but I think this falls under what I said in the first paragraph of the post you quoted - if it's inaccurate, then the page needs to be edited. It took a long time for the Wikia entry on the Geth War (Morning War) to acknowledge that information from Revelation at all.

Directly from the ME2 codex entry on Geth cullture:
Records of the quarian war suggest the geth have no concept of self-preservation. They do not flinch from gunfire, and do not hesitate to sacrifice themselves if it allows their fellows an advantage. Thousands of mobile platforms were expended assaulting quarian positions, but file-sharing between platforms ensured their memories and experience would not be lost. Geth are therefore immortal; if their hardware is destroyed, archival copies of their programs and databases can be downloaded into a new body.

With the gap in contact between the quarian war and the arrival of Sovereign, the only proven fact about the geth is that they were isolationists for centuries. They never ventured outside the Perseus Veil, but no organic ship that entered their territory ever returned.

The ME3 codex entry on Rannoch talks about the Geth restoring ecology etc. as Legion described but does not say they did so to lay out the welcome mat for the Quarians to return.

[Deathsaurer]

Well he certainly doesn't mention it when he talks about cleaning the planets. Whether it gets mentioned somewhere else will take further research.

[DeinonSlayer]

This wouldn't work. For one the Migrant Fleet is not self sustaining, it is heavily reliant on trade and imports. Even if they were to go off the beaten path it would take a long time to become completely independent and self sustaining; before then there would be quite the stream of cargo ships moving to and from to maintain those needed supplies.
 
Also exploration is an expensive and risky undertaking. Even something like Ilos where people knew the location wasn't undertaken because it would take about a month to get there, a time too long to guarantee a successful travel and return. The Migrant Fleet would probably be in worse shape because, again, they are heavily reliant on constant trade to maintain the fleet.

I don't think the Council would be too happy if they started opening relays, either - besides, going off the beaten path means leaving behind the infrastructure their fleet still depends on.

EDIT: OK, you already noted that last part...

[shodiswe]

Anyone can edit a wiki - it isn't maintained by Bioware. I'd need to see either a codex entry or spoken lines to corroborate the part I bolded above - as you noted, it doesn't play nice with the Geth consistently killing emissaries and ignoring all hails up to and including the present day (all the way up to the renewed conflict in ME3 if Legion dies) as Revelation, ME1 dialogue, the ME2 codex and the description of Haestrom in ME2 and 3 establish. Not saying for certain it's wrong, but I think this falls under what I said in the first paragraph of the post you quoted - if it's inaccurate, then the page needs to be edited. It took a long time for the Wikia entry on the Geth War (Morning War) to acknowledge that information from Revelation at all.

Directly from the ME2 codex entry on Geth cullture:
Records of the quarian war suggest the geth have no concept of self-preservation. They do not flinch from gunfire, and do not hesitate to sacrifice themselves if it allows their fellows an advantage. Thousands of mobile platforms were expended assaulting quarian positions, but file-sharing between platforms ensured their memories and experience would not be lost. Geth are therefore immortal; if their hardware is destroyed, archival copies of their programs and databases can be downloaded into a new body.

With the gap in contact between the quarian war and the arrival of Sovereign, the only proven fact about the geth is that they were isolationists for centuries. They never ventured outside the Perseus Veil, but no organic ship that entered their territory ever returned.

The ME3 codex entry on Rannoch talks about the Geth restoring ecology etc. as Legion described but does not say they did so to lay out the welcome mat for the Quarians to return.

The way Legion put's it in two different ocasions is that the Geth can't solve for peace alone, the Quarians need to be a part of it aswell. The Quarians need to want peace.

When you convince the Quairans to stop attacking and convince the Admirals to call for a ceasefire, they are suddenly broadcasting a ceasefire order and demonstrating goodwill by stop fiering on the Geth.

The Geth then accepts. At that point the Geth could have wiped out the Quairans upon completng the upload if they were truly that ruthless and didn't want peace. Noone could have stopped the Geth after the upload is complete.

Meaning the Geth were prepared to accept peace between the Geth and the Quarians like Legions said on the Normandy and Talis trial, if the Quarians shoed interest in peace.

Sending ships outside the Veil might have triggered a war with all the other Organic races that sent fleets that guarded the relay leading out of Geth space.

Considering the Organics had a massive fleet massign outside Geth territory it seems understandable if the Geth got jumpy if the organics started sending ships into their territory with a massive (what could be interpreted as) Invasion fleet from every organic civilisation in the galaxy.

Turian, Asari, Salarian, Hanar? Elchor? Volus? Batarian? That was before the Geth had built a Fleet similar in power to that of the Turians. They were still revocering fromt he Morning war. It wouldn't surprise me if the Quarian fleet was there aswell trying to convince the others to attack the Geth.

You send a massive strikeforce to their borders then start probing their defences, by sending in small scoutships. That's probably what it looked like to the Geth.

[shodiswe]

The Quarians civilians could probably have remained hidden for a month or two without any real problems, I think they would have lasted a while without trade. Going away and hiding wasn't the permanent solution, just one to keep them of the battlefield.

If the military failed they could have tried something else, but in the end it all came down to the Reapers no matter wat, either the Reapers are stopped or everyone in the galaxy except for the Leviathans are going to die.


Tbh though, they would have done a lot better trying to get a peace to begin with and work together with the Geth and the Rest of the galaxy to fight the Reapers that were the real threat. The geth wern't attacking, the Reapers were.

[Mrs_Stick]

Anyone can edit a wiki - it isn't maintained by Bioware. I'd need to see either a codex entry or spoken lines to corroborate the part I bolded above - as you noted, it doesn't play nice with the Geth consistently killing emissaries and ignoring all hails up to and including the present day (all the way up to the renewed conflict in ME3 if Legion dies) as Revelation, ME1 dialogue, the ME2 codex and the description of Haestrom in ME2 and 3 establish. Not saying for certain it's wrong, but I think this falls under what I said in the first paragraph of the post you quoted - if it's inaccurate, then the page needs to be edited. It took a long time for the Wikia entry on the Geth War (Morning War) to acknowledge that information from Revelation at all.

Directly from the ME2 codex entry on Geth cullture:
Records of the quarian war suggest the geth have no concept of self-preservation. They do not flinch from gunfire, and do not hesitate to sacrifice themselves if it allows their fellows an advantage. Thousands of mobile platforms were expended assaulting quarian positions, but file-sharing between platforms ensured their memories and experience would not be lost. Geth are therefore immortal; if their hardware is destroyed, archival copies of their programs and databases can be downloaded into a new body.

With the gap in contact between the quarian war and the arrival of Sovereign, the only proven fact about the geth is that they were isolationists for centuries. They never ventured outside the Perseus Veil, but no organic ship that entered their territory ever returned.

The ME3 codex entry on Rannoch talks about the Geth restoring ecology etc. as Legion described but does not say they did so to lay out the welcome mat for the Quarians to return.

Isn't that the point? All of this is just speculation on both sides. All we have is a little information on the morning war and nothing else until you get to ME2 and can talk to Legion. Even then it is not much to go on. Your points are very valid for you and that is wonder. But those that support the Geth believe that their points are valid as well. We all have to fill in the blanks. I am not concerned with what happened in the past war it was 300 years ago. Did the Geth really kill off 99% of the population? If so then that is a casualty of war at least how I see it. I judge them for the actions they have taken in the here and now.  

[von uber]

I judge them for the actions they have taken in the here and now.  

 

Siding with the Reapers?

[Farangbaa]

The Quarians made two capital mistakes, in my book:

 

1) Their actions when they realized their robots were alive.

 

Their reasoning for it... it's almost hilarious. "Oh damn, they're alive. They won't like it we use them as slaves... I guess we should kill em all now". How about you stop treating them as slaves instead? Seems a lot easier, and you'd still have your homeworld. They might even cooperate with you, who knows?

 

Oh of course, they tried to kill them all because they were scared of what the Council would think about their accidental creation of AI. That might've lost them their Embassy at the Citadel...

 

it still did, and they lost their homeworld too. Brilliant.

 

And seriously, think about this really hard. The only reason they had for killing the Geth was the fact they were alive. That's worse than killing someone because of the colour of their skin, hair, religious choices or sexuality.

 

They needed to die cause they were alive. That almost sickens me.

 

2) Deciding to attack those same living robots while the Reapers roflstomp over the rest of the galaxy.

 

I have no words for this. None. 

 

The first warrants the near complete genocide by the Geth. They're actually being kind as to not pursue them everywhere they go to make sure the Quarians don't finish their job.

 

The second warrants my Shepard choosing the Geth over the Quarians, and finally ridding them from the Galaxy. Although I must admit I've never done this, most of my Shepards were practical and tried to maximize war assets.

[Mrs_Stick]

Siding with the Reapers?

Last ditch effort from being wiped out understandable to a point.

[DeinonSlayer]

The Quarians made two capital mistakes, in my book:
 
1) Their actions when they realized their robots were alive.
 
Their reasoning for it... it's almost hilarious. "Oh damn, they're alive. They won't like it we use them as slaves... I guess we should kill em all now". How about you stop treating them as slaves instead? Seems a lot easier, and you'd still have your homeworld. They might even cooperate with you, who knows?
 
Oh of course, they tried to kill them all because they were scared of what the Council would think about their accidental creation of AI. That might've lost them their Embassy at the Citadel...
 
it still did, and they lost their homeworld too. Brilliant.
 
And seriously, think about this really hard. The only reason they had for killing the Geth was the fact they were alive. That's worse than killing someone because of the colour of their skin, hair, religious choices or sexuality.
 
They needed to die cause they were alive. That almost sickens me.
 
2) Deciding to attack those same living robots while the Reapers roflstomp over the rest of the galaxy.
 
I have no words for this. None. 
 
The first warrants the near complete genocide by the Geth. They're actually being kind as to not pursue them everywhere they go to make sure the Quarians don't finish their job.
 
The second warrants my Shepard choosing the Geth over the Quarians, and finally ridding them from the Galaxy. Although I must admit I've never done this, most of my Shepards were practical and tried to maximize war assets.

*rolls eyes*

Brilliant. Why don't we exterminate the whole of humanity for Relay 314 and Cerberus while we're at it?

[DeinonSlayer]

Last ditch effort from being wiped out understandable to a point.

Exactly the reason the Quarians invaded to begin with.

"We'll need those ships to fight the Reapers."
"Then we'll need a place to shelter our noncombatants while we do it."

[Farangbaa]

*rolls eyes*

Brilliant. Why don't we exterminate the whole of humanity for Relay 314 and Cerberus while we're at it?

 

Oh yeah, that equates to one another. Wtf.

 

I guess humanity tried to exterminate the entire Turian race during the First Contact War. 

And Cerberus has tried many times to exterminate alien races. 

 

Again, wtf.

[DeinonSlayer]

Oh yeah, that equates to one another. Wtf.

I guess humanity tried to exterminate the entire Turian race during the First Contact War.
And Cerberus has tried many times to exterminate alien races.

Again, wtf.

So many excuses. And here I thought you were such a proponent of collective blame. The Tenth Street Reds tried to kill millions of Turians, did they not? Clearly we must annihilate the entire city (nay, the country) they came from - they deserve it.

Don't be so quick to make blanket judgments.

[von uber]

The thing is that we don't know what happened when the geth started to become self aware. The version we see thanks to Legion may or may not be true. What about the military robots that started refusing commands, rather than the cuddly labourer ones?

[Farangbaa]

So many excuses. And here I thought you were such a proponent of collective blame. The Tenth Street Reds tried to kill millions of Turians, did they not? Clearly we must annihilate the entire city (nay, the country) they came from - they deserve it.

Don't be so quick to make blanket judgments.

 

Meh, you're right.

 

But I don't blame the Geth at all for trying to kill them all during the Morning War and the aftermath. (which they acutally didn't even try according to Legion, but w/e)  

 

And I can't get over the fact that they decided that killing their slaves, which suddenly were alive, was the best course of action. Instead of being proud of their actions, they tried to undo it. I mean, c'mon, you just created live. You equated yourself to God.

[Mrs_Stick]

Exactly the reason the Quarians invaded to begin with.
"We'll need those ships to fight the Reapers."
"Then we'll need a place to shelter our noncombatants while we do it."

Okay so what you are saying is the Quarians started the war again because they needed a place to house the non combatants. I vaguely remember this. Sorry just not sure I understand the logic behind that. They need the ships yet are throwing them and the non combatants at the Geth. Does Gerral say anything else about why? I cannot remember.