1331 réponses à ce sujet

[Obadiah]

The thing is that we don't know what happened when the geth started to become self aware. The version we see thanks to Legion may or may not be true. What about the military robots that started refusing commands, rather than the cuddly labourer ones?

Its also a version interpreted through Shepard's experiences.

[AlexMBrennan]

Last ditch effort from being wiped out understandable to a point.

There is no way the geth could possibly have believed that the Reapers would let them live given that they have wiped out every spcieies they ever encountered - they merely picked the death that would hurt the most quarians.

"Then we'll need a place to shelter our noncombatants while we do it."

Nonsense - the quarian admirals are clearly happy to have all their civilians die in a pointless attack on the geth, so why should they suddenly care if their civilians are at risk when they attack the reapers? This is clearly just a ploy to get Shepard to kill geth for them.

[DeinonSlayer]

Okay so what you are saying is the Quarians started the war again because they needed a place to house the non combatants. I vaguely remember this. Sorry just not sure I understand the logic behind that. They need the ships yet are throwing them and the non combatants at the Geth. Does Gerral say anything else about why? I cannot remember.

It's simple, really. Xen's flashbang let them do so with next to no casualties. It seemed like a safe bet - their only alternative, given that the Turians couldn't take them in even if they wanted to (they don't) and Legion had stopped responding, was to forget about helping the other races and try to hide from the Reapers in space (which, if you choose certain dialogue options, was actually Koris' position before the invasion). There was no way they could anticipate the Reaper code - even the Heretics never had it.

As for why they couldn't split the fleet, hold back the civilians, the reason is logistics and coordination. The fleet is interdependent. Check out the ME2 codex entry on Liveships. The military depends on the civilians for food, fuel, etc. while the civilians depend on the military for protection and coordination. Without Koris' leadership, they panic and try to flee the system only to be cut down by Geth blocking the relay. There are actually only a few hundred dedicated military vessels out of a fleet of fifty thousand ships. If you were to send all the liveships out of the system, the military would have no food. Hold back a liveship to feed the military, and you have to hold back about a third of the civilian fleet (~16,000 ships) to keep them fed while leaving the rest of the civilian fleet hanging out somewhere without military protection in a galaxy full of reapers (unless you wanted to spread your military fleet thinner).

To quote Xen, "even Koris recognized the necessity of the civilian fleet. The invasion would be stalled without a supply chain, after all."

[justafan]

Okay so what you are saying is the Quarians started the war again because they needed a place to house the non combatants. I vaguely remember this. Sorry just not sure I understand the logic behind that. They need the ships yet are throwing them and the non combatants at the Geth. Does Gerral say anything else about why? I cannot remember.

Gerrel says that the Migrant Fleet is dependent on the civilian ships for keeping the fleet fed and functioning, as the heavy/patrol fleet were never intended for independent military action.  They also need Rannoch to shelter civilians because it is harder for the reapers to exterminate a population spread across a planet then it is for them to destroy ships in space.  One battle going bad would lead the quarians to extinction given the need for the ships to stay together.  Having a planet of their own gives them a chance to spread out and hide, while their fleet can focus solely on combat rather than protecting weak civilian ships.

[DeinonSlayer]

Nonsense - the quarian admirals are clearly happy to have all their civilians die in a pointless attack on the geth, so why should they suddenly care if their civilians are at risk when they attack the reapers? This is clearly just a ploy to get Shepard to kill geth for them.

You have argued as such in the past, and I've refuted it. You never responded to any of my posts. What would be the point of deconstructing this yet again?

[Obadiah]

Last ditch effort from being wiped out understandable to a point.

Exactly the reason the Quarians invaded to begin with.

"We'll need those ships to fight the Reapers."
"Then we'll need a place to shelter our noncombatants while we do it."

Except that the Geth, under attack from the Quarians, were actually at the point of potentially being wiped out when they sided with the Reapers to survive. The Quarians were rationalizing their plan for an invasion. The Quarians may have a reason to invade, but these aren't equivalent acts of rationale or desperation.

[Mrs_Stick]

It's simple, really. Xen's flashbang let them do so with next to no casualties. It seemed like a safe bet - their only alternative, given that the Turians couldn't take them in even if they wanted to (they don't), was to forget about helping the other races and try to hide from the Reapers (which, if you choose certain dialogue options, was actually Koris' position before the invasion). There was no way they could anticipate the Reaper code - even the Heretics never had it.
As for why they couldn't split the fleet, hold back the civilians, the reason is logistics and coordination. The fleet is interdependent. Check out the ME2 codex entry on Liveships. The military depends on the civilians for food, fuel, etc. while the civilians depend on the military for protection and coordination. Without Koris' leadership, they panic and try to flee the system only to be cut down by Geth blocking the relay. There are actually only a few hundred dedicated military vessels out of a fleet of fifty thousand ships. If you were to send all the liveships out of the system, the military would have no food. Hold back a liveship to feed the military, and you have to hold back about a third of the civilian fleet (~16,000 ships) to keep them fed while leaving the rest of the civilian fleet hanging out somewhere without military protection in a galaxy full of reapers (unless you wanted to spread your military fleet thinner).
To quote Xen, "even Koris recognized the necessity of the civilian fleet. The invasion would be stalled without a supply chain, after all."

That does make some sense. I usually don't talk to Gerral or Xen. I really don't trust them. Need to take my own advice and not judge an entire species by the actions of a few. Probably wont happen but its a thought.

[DeinonSlayer]

Except that the Geth, under attack from the Quarians, were actually at the point of potentially being wiped out when they sided with the Reapers to survive. The Quarians were rationalizing their plan for an invasion. The Quarians may have a reason to invade, but these aren't equivalent acts of rationale or desperation.

Survival isn't a rationale? Do they need to wait around, unable to contribute to the war effort with their holds physically full of civilians, until the Reapers catch them in space before they can be considered desperate enough for their actions to be validated?

Both sides acted in the name of survival.

[Farangbaa]

Gerrel says that the Migrant Fleet is dependent on the civilian ships for keeping the fleet fed and functioning, as the heavy/patrol fleet were never intended for independent military action.  They also need Rannoch to shelter civilians because it is harder for the reapers to exterminate a population spread across a planet then it is for them to destroy ships in space.  One battle going bad would lead the quarians to extinction given the need for the ships to stay together.  Having a planet of their own gives them a chance to spread out and hide, while their fleet can focus solely on combat rather than protecting weak civilian ships.

 

Except a planet cannot jump to FTL and suddenly be gone.

 

Survival isn't a rationale? Do they need to wait around, unable to contribute to the war effort with their holds physically full of civilians, until the Reapers catch them in space before they can be considered desperate enough for their actions to be validated?

Both sides acted in the name of survival.

 

Their chances of being found while they are hiding in space are far less than their chance of being destroyed by the Reapers when they have a homeplanet.

 

A ship can jump to FTL and disappear, a planet can not.

 

Besides, they'd need to rebuil everything on Rannoch. Chance that there's nothing left on that planet after 300 years of Geth is not zero. I really don't see the need why they need a planet NOW.

[DeinonSlayer]

Except a planet cannot jump to FTL and suddenly be gone.
 

 
Their chances of being found while they are hiding in space are far less than their chance of being destroyed by the Reapers when they have a homeplanet.
 
A ship can jump to FTL and disappear, a planet can not.
 
Besides, they'd need to rebuil everything on Rannoch. Chance that there's nothing left on that planet after 300 years of Geth is not zero. I really don't see the need why they need a planet NOW.

Time spent hiding is time spent not fighting the Reapers. By offloading their civilians, they make themselves available to the galactic war effort.

More to the point, long-term survival in space is incredibly unlikely. The fleet is not entirely self-sufficient; they depend on external infrastructure in the best of times for basic survival. This infrastructure is rapidly being destroyed. The Reapers spend centuries scouring the galaxy in each cycle - Mass Effect: Ascension tells us that at the rate at which old ships are wearing out versus new ships being added to the fleet, they have only eighty years left.

[von uber]

That does make some sense. I usually don't talk to Gerral or Xen. I really don't trust them. Need to take my own advice and not judge an entire species by the actions of a few. Probably wont happen but its a thought.

What about legion / geth vi? Do you trust them? Or tali?

[Mrs_Stick]

What about legion / geth vi? Do you trust them? Or tali?

I lean more towards the Geth. As much as some of this make logical sense and I can see that I am still more of a Geth Supporter.

[KaiserShep]

There's no way that Geth VI, or even Legion would be more trustworthy than Tali. Tali never withheld information from you, and of course has been an ally for a great deal longer.

[Mrs_Stick]

There's no way that Geth VI, or even Legion would be more trustworthy than Tali. Tali never withheld information from you, and of course has been an ally for a great deal longer.

My opinion is different. I don't trust either side fully. Tali had a very sided view imo. Just because she has been there from the beginning does not mean she is more trust worthy. Its all in the perspective of the one playing the game.

[Chashan]

Time spent hiding is time spent not fighting the Reapers. By offloading their civilians, they make themselves available to the galactic war effort.

More to the point, long-term survival in space is incredibly unlikely. The fleet is not entirely self-sufficient; they depend on external infrastructure in the best of times for basic survival. This infrastructure is rapidly being destroyed. The Reapers spend centuries scouring the galaxy in each cycle - Mass Effect: Ascension tells us that at the rate at which old ships are wearing out versus new ships being added to the fleet, they have only eighty years left.

 

Of all the content of the books BW prioritizes forcing in a character such as Leng over providing information such as that?

 

Simply incredible.

[shodiswe]

So many excuses. And here I thought you were such a proponent of collective blame. The Tenth Street Reds tried to kill millions of Turians, did they not? Clearly we must annihilate the entire city (nay, the country) they came from - they deserve it.

Don't be so quick to make blanket judgments.

They did? I must have missed that news package.... How did I miss that.

[Farangbaa]

Time spent hiding is time spent not fighting the Reapers. By offloading their civilians, they make themselves available to the galactic war effort.

More to the point, long-term survival in space is incredibly unlikely. The fleet is not entirely self-sufficient; they depend on external infrastructure in the best of times for basic survival. This infrastructure is rapidly being destroyed. The Reapers spend centuries scouring the galaxy in each cycle - Mass Effect: Ascension tells us that at the rate at which old ships are wearing out versus new ships being added to the fleet, they have only eighty years left.

 

Ok.

 

Did the Quarians try to contact the Geth in between ME2 and ME3? I vaguely remember something about that ( they tried but got no contact/reply) but my memory's really fuzzy on this.

[DeinonSlayer]

My opinion is different. I don't trust either side fully. Tali had a very sided view imo. Just because she has been there from the beginning does not mean she is more trust worthy. Its all in the perspective of the one playing the game.

One last thing to consider:

"The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. For synthetics, the replacement of a data file is the only requirement."
~ Legion, during his loyalty mission

Who you choose to trust is your business. Just something to keep in mind when walking through Legion's slideshow. They have complete control over what to show you and a vested interest in earning Shepard's sympathy. Whereas the Quarians have continued to play a role in galactic society (see aid provided in the wake of the Taetrus blast), there is a grand total of one Geth platform which has not opened fire on any organic who crossed its path on sight in the last three hundred years.

[DeinonSlayer]

Ok.
 
Did the Quarians try to contact the Geth in between ME2 and ME3? I vaguely remember something about that ( they tried but got no contact/reply) but my memory's really fuzzy on this.

They did. Legion and Tali exchanged a few messages, testing the waters on whether negotiations were possible, until one day Legion stopped responding. Tali says that in his last message, Legion said the Geth were unable to reach consensus. She doesn't know why he stopped answering: "Perhaps he was fighting the Reaper takeover, or maybe he didn't want to give information to an enemy."

It's never clarified. All we know is that Legion is found tied up in a Reaper egg, placed there by the rest of the Geth against his will. The VI, on the other hand, did it voluntarily.

[Chashan]

One last thing to consider:

"The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. For synthetics, the replacement of a data file is the only requirement."
~ Legion, during his loyalty mission

Who you choose to trust is your business. Just something to keep in mind when walkin through Legion's slideshow. They have complete control over what to show you and a vested interest in earning Shepard's sympathy. Whereas the Quarians have continued to play a role in galactic society (see aid provided in the wake of the Taetrus blast), there is a grand total of one Geth platform which has not opened fire on any organic who crossed its path on sight in the last three hundred years.

 

On record, but the point remains.

 

As does what you raise about the trip to the Consensus: a labour-unit suddenly "finding its soul"(sic!), aw how cute. But military-hardware, which the geth were also used as, growing sentience? We know from the Luna-AI how that can turn out.

[Farangbaa]

They did. Legion and Tali exchanged a few messages, testing the waters on whether negotiations were possible, until one day Legion stopped responding. Tali says that in his last message, Legion said the Geth were unable to reach consensus. She doesn't know why he stopped answering: "Perhaps he was fighting the Reaper takeover, or maybe he didn't want to give information to an enemy."

It's never clarified. All we know is that Legion is found tied up in a Reaper egg, placed there by the rest of the Geth against his will. The VI, on the other hand, did it voluntarily.

 

I really need to pay more attention Cause I don't even remember the against his will part

 

I've been a fervent Geth supporter since ME1 though. I've never understood the Quarians' reasons for deciding it was best to kill all the Geth.

[DeinonSlayer]

I really need to pay more attention Cause I don't even remember the against his will part
 
I've been a fervent Geth supporter since ME1 though. I've never understood the Quarians' reasons for deciding it was best to kill all the Geth.

That's another essay. For one thing, they didn't believe they were sentient yet - only moving towards it. For another, the creation of an artificial intelligence was viewed as "a crime against the entire galaxy" by Council law (from Revelation). Jarrahe Station in ME2 seems evidence enough that not acting aggressively towards an AI or rogue VI does not guarantee your safety any more than it would with a wild animal.

How would we react if a computer in charge of our nuclear arsenal started debiating from its programming in any way?

@Chasan, I believe I poked fun at this earlier.

[Obadiah]

Survival isn't a rationale? Do they need to wait around, unable to contribute to the war effort with their holds physically full of civilians, until the Reapers catch them in space before they can be considered desperate enough for their actions to be validated?

Both sides acted in the name of survival.

Imagine for a moment that the Quarians had attacked a planet of any other race besides the Geth given your rationale of survival. Would you still be defending it?

[CronoDragoon]

I really need to pay more attention Cause I don't even remember the against his will part

 

I've been a fervent Geth supporter since ME1 though. I've never understood the Quarians' reasons for deciding it was best to kill all the Geth.

 

Just to reiterate (and I'm using your post more as an opportunity to do so, less as a direct response): I don't think many people want to try and convince pro-geth people to side with the quarians. The sensible thing being asked is just that the quarian death toll is accounted for, one way or another.

 

For example, Shepard asks Legion how billions of quarians were wiped out in Morning War. Legion can say a couple things here that I think both sides would find fair. He could say that because the quarians sought their total extinction, the geth could not afford to make civilian/combatant distinctions. He could say that the geth could not understand such a distinction. He could say that it was a chemical weapon that triggered a chain reaction epidemic with far greater consequences than anticipated. So long as it isn't just ignored or swept under the rug.

 

I'd go the chemical weapon route personally, as it seems the most efficient way to fight the quarians. Someone earlier commented that quarian immune systems weren't destroyed until after they started living in space....well that's not exactly true, I think. They had weak immune systems to begin with because of the ecosystem of their planet: no bug life, and the plant-life had a symbiotic relationship with the animals on Rannoch. Given this, it seems likely to me that the geth would exploit such an advantage, having no moral horror at the thought of chemical warfare.

[Farangbaa]

That's another essay. For one thing, they didn't believe they were sentient yet - only moving towards it. For another, the creation of an artificial intelligence was viewed as "a crime against the entire galaxy" by Council law (from Revelation). Jarrahe Station in ME2 seems evidence enough that not acting aggressively towards an AI or rogue VI does not guarantee your safety any more than it would with a wild animal.

How would we react if a computer in charge of our nuclear arsenal started debiating from its programming in any way?

@Chasan, I believe I poked fun at this earlier.

 

We'd probably turn of the computer. The difference here being that you can't have a conversation with the computer. With the Geth you can.

 

"Does this unit have a soul?"

"No" or "Maybe". Especially if they believed they weren´t yet sentient, they could´ve just answered with "no".

 

They could even refrain from answering the question and ask it what it thinks the answer to that question is. Or avoid the question altogher and ask what it wants. They could have gained a tremendous ally if they had just conversed.

 

But as it stands now, in both Legion's and the Quarian's account, they did none of that. They instantly opted to kill their now (somewhat) sentient slaves and cover up their mistake to avoid what eventually happened anyway: losing their embassy. As a bonus, they also lost their homeworld and all their colonies.