1331 réponses à ce sujet

[Mrs_Stick]

One last thing to consider:
"The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. For synthetics, the replacement of a data file is the only requirement."
~ Legion, during his loyalty mission
Who you choose to trust is your business. Just something to keep in mind when walking through Legion's slideshow. They have complete control over what to show you and a vested interest in earning Shepard's sympathy. Whereas the Quarians have continued to play a role in galactic society (see aid provided in the wake of the Taetrus blast), there is a grand total of one Geth platform which has not opened fire on any organic who crossed its path on sight in the last three hundred years.

I will consider this as I am almost to legions loyalty mission in ME2 right now. There is always something to consider. Gaining other view points is the best way.

[CronoDragoon]

 Legion never says in ME2 that the Geth are doing it so they can return Rannoch. That's a stance which is frequently projected onto them because people want it to be true.

 

I'll have to double check this. I've been operating under the impression that they are anticipating the quarians' return, not because I want it to be true (quite the opposite, as if they do it turns the tension in ME3 into a bit of an idiot plot) but because I thought Legion said that the geth considered themselves caretakers of the planet.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Its also a version interpreted through Shepard's experiences.

 

Ah yes.

 

Then we should have seen a Colossus or Armature refusing its shutdown command and mowing down its former masters. After all Shepard had seen them, fought them, killed the. Oh that. But I forgot. Shepard went brain dead. I think they retconned out the existence of these things. But that might have balanced the scenario and shown both sides at fault. Patrick Weekes couldn't have that. The Geth had to appear totally sympathetic so that only Talimancers and those who really liked Tali would side with the Quarians or make peace. Those who were new to the game would side with the Geth. The statistics pretty much show this.

 

Lore in the MEU is as flexible as the writer's agenda.

[Steelcan]

I'll have to double check this. I've been operating under the impression that they are anticipating the quarians' return, not because I want it to be true (quite the opposite, as if they do it turns the tension in ME3 into a bit of an idiot plot) but because I thought Legion said that the geth considered themselves caretakers of the planet.

He never says that they are care-taking it for the quarians return, instead he likens it to Arlington, Auschwitz, etc...

 

ie a memorial to the dead, not something to be used by the living

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I will consider this as I am almost to legions loyalty mission in ME2 right now. There is always something to consider. Gaining other view points is the best way.

 

 

You have to pick the renegade conversation option when you get to the heretic station.

[Iakus]

 

 

Lore in the MEU is as flexible as the writer's agenda.

 

You realize I'm probably going to have to steal that line, yes? 

[FlyingSquirrel]

I would agree that the writers tip the scales in favor of the geth somewhat in ME3, but I think that's partly because they figured that people already had some sympathy for the quarians. I seem to recall a YouTube video of the 2012 PAX panel where someone from Bioware said they figured most players would instinctively side with the quarians if forced to choose and therefore they thought they *needed* to go out of their way to let the geth plead their case.

 

Personally, I think both sides seem to have done some pretty horrible things in the past. If Tali's version of the history is accurate, the quarians tried to shut down the geth *before* they ever showed any sign of violent resistance. They correctly recognized that if the geth were sentient, that would make them little better than slavemasters, but then the quarian leaders tried to kill them or at least put them into indefinite stasis rather than face the implications of the geth's evolution. That said, as has been pointed out numerous times, the quarian death toll suggests that the geth must have used some pretty indiscriminate tactics to fight back and have kept up a hostile isolationism since then. I don't think, however, that Legion is to be seen as a total anomaly but rather as the first instance of the geth finding a potential partner in organics. If you drop the firewall to let him communicate with the rest of the geth during ME2, his attitude doesn't seem to change at all afterwards, and he reported to Tali that they were having difficulty achieving consensus before the quarians attacked.

 

If I absolutely *had* to choose between the two in the context of the Rannoch arc, I'd choose the geth simply because they were, by all accounts, minding their own business and building their Dyson sphere when the quarians attacked them, and when the Rannoch Reaper dies and they are freed from Reaper control, they stop firing, at which point Gerrel wants to kill them anyway. But as is often the case in the Mass Effect universe, this doesn't seem to be an inevitable clash of civilizations but rather the product of short-sighted leadership and hasty decisions on both sides. Koris and the Civilian Fleet didn't want to attack the geth in the first place, and the geth only allied with the Reapers after the quarian attacks diminished their collective intelligence, while the behavior of Legion and the liberated Primes suggests that there wasn't a true consensus and that dissenters were simply outvoted and suppressed.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

You realize I'm probably going to have to steal that line, yes? 

 

 

I had to stop quoting KaiserShep - "Lore in the MEU is some kind of zany free-for-all."

[Mrs_Stick]

You have to pick the renegade conversation option when you get to the heretic station.

For dialogue? To get a different view?
Or are you saying destroy the heretics?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

 

 

If I absolutely *had* to choose between the two in the context of the Rannoch arc, I'd choose the geth simply because they were, by all accounts, minding their own business and building their Dyson sphere when the quarians attacked them, and when the Rannoch Reaper dies and they are freed from Reaper control, they stop firing, at which point Gerrel wants to kill them anyway. But as is often the case in the Mass Effect universe, this doesn't seem to be an inevitable clash of civilizations but rather the product of short-sighted leadership and hasty decisions on both sides. Koris and the Civilian Fleet didn't want to attack the geth in the first place, and the geth only allied with the Reapers after the quarian attacks diminished their collective intelligence, while the behavior of Legion and the liberated Primes suggests that there wasn't a true consensus and that dissenters were simply outvoted and suppressed.

 

I wouldn't. I would choose the Quarians. The geth are synthetic machines. They can be rebuilt. The quarians are a biological species. They cannot be rebuilt. Once they are gone they're gone forever. Gerrel wants to keep firing because critical information has been withheld by Tali and by Raan and by Shepard about the upload. He has no idea about what is going on. He is using a tactical advantage. The only way the Quarians can win that battle is if you kill Legion or Geth VI. No Admiral would have withheld such critical information from another. In reality, Tali would have told Gerrel what was happening and Gerrel would have stopped firing. Same with Raan. Reality doesn't always make for good writing. But that was terrible writing, but the writers wanted to put the entire onus on the player. There were better ways of initiating conflict. Your choices matter. 

 

And the way the consensus works is that the vote has to be unanimous. If there is disagreement then the old way continues. 

[Chashan]

For dialogue? To get a different view?
Or are you saying destroy the heretics?

 

Renegade-dialogue argues for rewriting the lot, actually.

 

FlyingSquirrell wrote...

 

If I absolutely *had* to choose between the two in the context of the Rannoch arc[...]

 

I'd have been a lot more comfortable had their military usefulness been one of the tipping factors there, rather than them being victimized. One can still come up with that reasoning for picking the things over the Quarians as is, yet it isn't exactly made a key-argument leading up to the choice.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

For dialogue? To get a different view?
Or are you saying destroy the heretics?

 

When you arrive on the heretic station, Legion will say "Shepard Commander, there is another possibility." Then he'll explain it. Select the renegade conversation response. "We have a job to do." or "Let's get moving." I can't remember the choice exactly. You'll get an entirely different response from Legion, and a great insight into how alien the geth are. Then you'll see how ME3 destroyed the geth. 

 

Also if you want to make peace easier between the quarians and the geth -- 

Spoiler

Destroy the heretic base

[DeinonSlayer]

Imagine for a moment that the Quarians had attacked a planet of any other race besides the Geth given your rationale of survival. Would you still be defending it?

Nope. Good thing for the Quarians that they didn't.

The Geth are seen by the entire galaxy as hostile isolationists at best, or a Reaper proxy faction at worst, with the possible exception of Shepard and the crew of the Normandy. This is their own fault, purely on account of their actions. Between the heretics, the centuries of isolationism, and the genocide you refuse to acknowledge and would rather everyone forgot about, there's a huge shadow hanging over any kind of peace negotiations.

The situation we see could be represented as follows: you're in a building with no exits which is on fire. Your kid is with you. There's a fire-resistant shelter, but someone has locked themselves inside and refuses to let you in. He's armed. He'll shoot you if you try to force your way in, and he refuses to talk. You're armed. You can't focus on putting out the fire until your kid is safe. What to do?

The Quarians used a flashbang to force their way in. The Geth set themselves and the room they're in on fire in response and blame the other guy for it. The entire issue could have been resolved with better communication, without this absurdity.

I believe the arc should have been less focused on action schlock and painting the Geth as victims and more focused on making both sides recognize the other's perspectives. No Big Choice at the end, more an outcome which is the sum of everything which went into it. I could go on, but I'll bet you've already tuned me out.

[Deathsaurer]

Legion flat out says the Geth aren't interested in making peace with the Quarians unless the Quarians actually desire it if you take him on Tali's loyalty mission.

[Obadiah]

Ah yes.

Then we should have seen a Colossus or Armature refusing its shutdown command and mowing down its former masters. After all Shepard had seen them, fought them, killed the. Oh that. But I forgot. Shepard went brain dead. I think they retconned out the existence of these things. But that might have balanced the scenario and shown both sides at fault. Patrick Weekes couldn't have that. The Geth had to appear totally sympathetic so that only Talimancers and those who really liked Tali would side with the Quarians or make peace. Those who were new to the game would side with the Geth. The statistics pretty much show this.

Lore in the MEU is as flexible as the writer's agenda.

Would that be balance? The memories show the Quarians destroying one Geth, killing one Quarian, and locking up/supressing one other Quarian. Somehow I don't think you're asking to see scenes of a Geth killing one Quarian.

[KaiserShep]

I really need to pay more attention Cause I don't even remember the against his will part

I've been a fervent Geth supporter since ME1 though. I've never understood the Quarians' reasons for deciding it was best to kill all the Geth.

In such a position, if we had a vast labor force of machines that started to think independently, we'd very likely have them decommissioned. We would consider them defective property and would treat them as such. I can't say that I would oppose this, for the same reason my laptop is not permitted to have a mind of its own.

[ImaginaryMatter]

In such a position, if we had a vast labor force of machines that started to think independently, we'd very likely have them decommissioned. We would consider them defective property and would treat them as such. I can't say that I would oppose this, for the same reason my laptop is not permitted to have a mind of its own.

 

That would be awful. There's some embarrassing stuff on there, I would hate for the computer to blackmail me.

[von uber]

"What's this scene showing?"
"It's dated as 3 weeks into the Morning War. It shows Geth combat units storming Creator habitation zone 34, population 5,612. There were no survivors. "

[KaiserShep]

"What's this scene showing?"
"It's dated as 3 weeks into the Morning War. It shows Geth combat units storming Creator habitation zone 34, population 5,612. There were no survivors. "

It would've been interesting to see a holographic record of the bombings.

[Obadiah]

Nope. Good thing for the Quarians that they didn't.

The Geth are seen by the entire galaxy as hostile isolationists at best, or a Reaper proxy faction at worst, with the possible exception of Shepard and the crew of the Normandy. This is their own fault, purely on account of their actions. Between the heretics, the centuries of isolationism, and the genocide you refuse to acknowledge and would rather everyone forgot about, there's a huge shadow hanging over any kind of peace negotiations.

The situation we see could be represented as follows: you're in a building with no exits which is on fire. Your kid is with you. There's a fire-resistant shelter, but someone has locked themselves inside and refuses to let you in. He's armed. He'll shoot you if you try to force your way in, and he refuses to talk. You're armed. You can't focus on putting out the fire until your kid is safe. What to do?

The Quarians used a flashbang to force their way in. The Geth set themselves and the room they're in on fire in response and blame the other guy for it. The entire issue could have been resolved with better communication, without this absurdity.

I believe the arc should have been less focused on action schlock and painting the Geth as victims and more focused on making both sides recognize the other's perspectives. No Big Choice at the end, more an outcome which is the sum of everything which went into it. I could go on, but I'll bet you've already tuned me out.

I see. So if the Geth had turned Rannoch into a toxic wasteland that offered no hope of sustaining life, and the Batarians or some other antagonistic isolationist race held on to a planet that that could support Quarian life, but wouldn't allow the Quarians to settle, you be ok with the Quarians invading them and attempting to take their planet , in the name of Quarian survival. Good to know.

[Ryriena]

The thing is, they did not keep the Quarins away. The Quarins kept themselves away. In fact, they kept rebuilding the home worlds of the Quarins for them to return.

[DeinonSlayer]

I see. So if the Geth had turned Rannoch into a toxic wasteland that offered no hope of sustaining life, and the Batarians or some other antagonistic isolationist race held on to a planet that that could support Quarian life, but wouldn't allow the Quarians to settle, you be ok with the Quarians invading them and attempting to take their planet , in the name of Quarian survival. Good to know.

I believe the first word in my reply was "no." I wouldn't support their doing so.

It's funny to me that the Quarians attacking the Geth is, to you, inexcusable (had the potential to screw over the Geth), but the Geth siding with the Reapers (had the potential to screw over everyone) is completely OK.

[von uber]

It would've been interesting to see a holographic record of the bombings.

Or anything which showed the Geth killing Quarians.

[DeinonSlayer]

The thing is, they did not keep the Quarins away. The Quarins kept themselves away. In fact, they kept rebuilding the home worlds of the Quarins for them to return.

They were maintaining it as a memorial, not in preparation for the Quarians to return.

[justafan]

Or anything which showed the Geth killing Quarians.

The Geth had no reason to show themselves in an unsympathetic light.  Why do you think there was a cut to black as soon as the Geth picked up a rifle?

 

Also, they missed a huge opportunity for the Quarians to show some recordings from their perspective.  I highly doubt all information was prevented from getting beyond the veil.