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[DeinonSlayer]

We've had a lot of head-butting on this board about the Quarian/Geth debate...

...a lot of head-butting.

 

Still, I recently came across a posting I thought was worth some discussion - the problems with the writing itself (of which there are many). The writer of the following is AssaultSloth, a PhD med student who wrote the best depiction of Project Lazarus I've yet encountered. I don't agree with everything written below, but it does a good job of summarizing what was wrong with the arc (IMO, I'd re-order the list as 2, 4, 3, and 1 in ascending order of importance):

 

A quick rant about ME3's Rannoch arc:

I had some people ask for clarification on my dislike of the Rannoch arc in ME3, so I’m going to try to type out the gist of my argument. I went and replayed the four relevant missions again last night, and endeavored to maintain a positive attitude, to find as many things to praise about the arc as I could, and indeed I did end up dismissing some of the things I’d previously hated as not so bad. Still, I find myself walking away with four major complaints, which I shall describe in ascending order of importance:

(I’m going to try to write this with as little swearing as possible)

 

4. Many of the details are nonsensical or unexplained – There are a lot of goofy things in the Rannoch arc. Why does Legion take down the shields on the geth dreadnaught, instead of just the weapons? Why is Legion immune to Reaper control? (sure, they have more runtimes than a normal platform, but a lot less than, say, a server, and the servers got infected just fine). How do the geth fighter pilots/primes escape Reaper control? Why did Legion smugly explain that geth don’t need physical escape pods and then load everybody into the cockpit of a fighter (and then later a hovercraft)? Are the Reaper upgrades a code or a signal? Why/how was Legion used as an antenna instead of just using an actual antenna? For that matter, if the buried Reaper could control the entire geth race from Rannoch in the first place, why bother with projecting the signal from the dreadnaught at all? Why does Tali have schematics of a unique geth dreadnaught? Why do the geth have pods that humans can use to log into the consensus? (Legion even says that for some reason they would be vulnerable to electronic attack by foreign organic thought processes, so why would they keep this vulnerability around?) How are the geth on death’s doorstep when ME2 established that they had considerable holdings in the spaces between stars? Why does Legion have to die to upload the Reaper code? How the hell do geth uploading into the quarians’ suits help fix their immune systems? That’s just nonsense.

 

3. The geth/quarian conflict is presented as one-sided – The Rannoch arc is pretty unsubtle the whole way through. Where in ME2 we were presented with a complicated picture between Legion, Tali, and the admirals, in ME3 the wind only blows in one direction. It’s presented as if the entirety of the blame rests on the quarians and that the geth were completely innocent of the matter. It is implied that Legion was present for the Morning War, and picked up a sniper rifle to help rescue some other helpless geth (a totally unnecessary retcon of Legion’s backstory as established in ME2). Han’Gerrel, who was presented as bellicose and anti-geth but well-meaning and supportive of Tali in ME2, is suddenly a raving lunatic who all of the other admirals are desperately trying to reign in and Tali contemptuously calls a bosh’tet. Zaal’Koris, who was presented as a pro-geth douchebag with very little clout and who actively attempted to sabotage Tali twice in ME2, is now a wise messiah presented as 100% in the right. For the record, I do think the quarians are mostly at fault for the Morning War, but they jammed that down my throat trying to make the geth into gentle, frolicking, peace-loving victims who did nothing wrong, when previous games established how they had butchered the vast majority of the quarian race and have consistently killed envoys in the 300 years since.

 

2. The geth willingly joined the Reapers – Now I know that the game offers an explanation for this – the geth were desperate, and with their reduced numbers they were dumber, so they took the Reaper offer of help – but this is just a terribly boring way to go after ME2. We learned that the geth were heavily divided over the Reaper issue in ME2, that they had schismed (something very difficult for them to do, given how it reduces their perspective) over this specific matter. The bulk of the geth apparently regarded self-determination as critically important. Then in ME3 all of this just immediately goes out the window and they go running to the Reapers for help. The heretic/geth distinction is rendered meaningless and barely mentioned again, and we end up with this poorly understood loyalty issue (again, if the geth chose to ally with the Reapers, why didn’t Legion? And how did the fighter pilots in the server switch allegiances? Shouldn’t they all be in agreement, being GETH?). This change really steams my beans because it was completely unnecessary. You could have made it so just the heretics went over to the Reapers willingly, and Legion and the true geth were another faction attempting to fight the change. That could tie back into ME2’s story and Shepard’s decision with the heretics. Or perhaps even better, just say that the Reapers FORCED the geth into servitude. They didn’t ask this time, they just showed up and took over with their computational awesomeness, and the geth consensus didn’t have a say in the matter. This latter method would have the added bonus of explaining why Legion might be the only platform unaffected – they could be the only platform smart enough to realize that they shouldn’t reconnect to the consensus lest they get infected.

 

1. The geth gestalt was replaced by individuality – All that other stuff is just lazy and stupid, this is straight up offensively bad to me. This is the worst thing in the trilogy for me. Long after the sting of the endings has faded, this still keeps me up some nights. In ME2, Legion offers us a picture of what the geth are, and in short, they are awesome. They are the most interesting, most alien culture in Mass Effect. Their creator Chris E’toile said that he intentionally avoided the two big AI clichés – the geth don’t want to destroy organics, nor do they want to become organics. They don’t have individuality and they don’t want it (Legion says this specifically). They believe themselves (and all sentient races) to have rights (Legion says this specifically too.) They looked down on organic violence over ideas – they sought to understand, but not to judge (Legion basically says this). When the heretics wanted to leave, the geth let them go peacefully. When Legion discovered that the heretics had changed enough to sneak spy software onto geth servers, they were astonished. Legion makes it very clear – the geth do not value individuality, but togetherness. They know each other’s mind and they understand. They wanted to build their Dyson sphere so that no geth would ever have to be alone, so they could all communicate, all think together, and be the best they could be, and exercise their right as sentient beings to forge their own path in peace.

 

And then in ME3 this is all gone. Their Dyson sphere is destroyed as an afterthought and the geth get (as aforementioned, nebulously-described, goofy-ass) Reaper upgrades that confer individuality on them. What this means for all of the runtimes that don’t have platforms is never explained (does one of Legion’s 1183 runtimes become an AI and the rest just disappear, or what?) The geth get the opportunity for individuality and Legion finds it ‘beautiful… indicative of life’. They want it, after ME2 establishing specifically that they didn’t want it (“If this is the individuality you value, we question your judgment”). The geth go from super inventive awesomeness to a run of the mill Pinocchio story (which EDI already had covered).

 

Here’s the thing: The geth already were people. They were sentient, they were capable of making moral judgments, and they had rights just like organic races do. They did not need individuality to do this. The geth consensus is not a pile of slaves pining for individuality, it is a superorganism, where individuality is not only irrelevant, but counterproductive. It is not hard to imagine why non-geth characters might not be able to grasp this – I understand why Shepard would assume the geth wanted individuality – but LEGION should not say they think the geth need an upgrade to be considered alive. It is abundantly clear that Legion thought they were alive already (and they were right to). The way it all went down with the geth, with them abandoning both their fondness for self-determination and their clever non-individuality, was lame, unimaginative garbage that missed out on a huge chance to play into Mass Effect’s organic vs synthetic themes to instead clobber them with a big, fat, unsubtle Bat of Mediocrity plus 10.

 

And the final straw that broke poor Sloth’s heart? After the mission, the character who delivered the moral of the story, the character who pointed out that Legion had switched to the “I” pronoun, indicating that they had finally, finally graduated from a meaningless automaton into true personhood, the character who didn’t have any problem at all with the implication that the geth hadn’t been people before the Reaper upgrades…

 

Was EDI.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

I like this human. He understands!

[justafan]

Ya, I agree with almost everything this guy said.  Rannoch was fun, it even had some great emotional moments, but it was beyond nonsensical in terms of continuity and lore.

[themikefest]

 I don't agree that the Geth are a people. They aren't. They're just machines.

 

My main issue is why do I have to have Tali and Legion to get peace between both groups? When I cured/sabotage the genophage I didn't need any specific character. It was a yes or no decision.

[Eryri]

Agreed OP. Legion's character and motivations changed a lot from ME2 To ME3, and not for the better. During the conversations in ME2, he made a well argued case for not idly adopting other culture's technology and ideas, to attain a better understanding of one's place in the universe by learning from one's own mistakes and cutting a new and unique path.
In ME3 that all goes out the window when he enthusiastically grabs the Reaper's code with both hands. The same sort of laziness in borrowing the Reaper's hand-me-down technology that proved to be such a poisoned challis for countless cycles is now suddenly OK because it's Legion using it?

It makes no thematic sense, and makes the Geth far less interesting as a result. It's a shame that Chris E'toile had to leave the writing team.

[Staff Cdr Alenko]

 I don't agree that the Geth are a people. They aren't. Their just machines.

 

You humans are all racist!

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I'm not here to disagree and say that the Rannoch arc was well-written, but some of these "issues" strike me as exaggerated.

 

 

4.) Can't fight this too much, most (perhaps all, but I only skimmed through this) of those things are valid.

 

3.) Not sure I agree, mainly because when I played, I never felt to myself "gosh, they're really trying to make me choose the geth" ... even in multiple plays of ME3. You've also got to consider that some folks may be playing with the replacement character to Legion, who antagonizes the geth far more than anything in ME3 makes them look victimized. That's the default game. If you have Legion, it's because you've played ME2 and imported, so those players do have that information anyway (that the author claims is lacking from ME3). And, again, they willingly sided with the Reapers. That's not an easy thing for people to swallow.

 

Even without the replacement, there were times when Legion made me think a bit, what with his dishonesty.

 

And even with ME2's supposedly more fair portrayal of geth and quarians, I was here in the ME2 days, and geth sympathy was not particularly less rampant than it is now. Quarians were reviled for killing them off "just for asking a question" and lots of people expressed a desire to kill them for it. In that way, I actually felt as though the Geth Consensus mission was there to help the quarians' image, because it disproved the prevailing image around here that all quarians just freaked out over geth sentience and wanted them dead (by showing that some quarians were against it, just got overruled by those in charge).

 

To me, it feels like some are more sensitive to the pro-geth portrayal than the norm. And I'll be blunt about it: I think it has to do with Tali's relative popularity as a character and LI, or those who prefer to see the geth as enemies for whatever reason. When it comes down to it, BioWare's stats show that players' final decision on Rannoch is pretty close to an even 33/33/33 split. Now, that may or may not have to do with the fact that peace is not always an option. It's still much more balanced than what the stats show for the Genophage decision. I mean, these debates still go on around this forum because enough people are split on the issue, unlike the genophage (which is virtually never discussed).

 

2.) Interesting idea here, but I don't see it as inherently better, nor did ME3 neglect to mention the geth schism.

 

Also, this goes back to the uneven portrayal thing. On one hand, it's bad that the geth have been made to look ambiguous and even victimized, but then it's unacceptable that they do something questionable and makes you uncomfortable with them? Can't have it both ways.

 

1.) So the geth are considered "sentient" because enough programs networking together makes them work that way, even when one singular program is not so much as an intelligence (sentient or otherwise)? What crap! Interesting? Fair enough. Unique? Yeah, sure. But, let's take off the rose-tinted glasses and see them for what they are.

 

And does anyone else see the dissonance between the author's complaint and the author's ideal? He (or she?) complains that they've been made less unique and interesting in favor of becoming more like organics, but previously defines their personhood as valid relative to how much they are -- and I quote -- "just like organics." Combine this with the author's eagerness to pass them as sentient, when characters within the MEU indicate the geth are not considered such.

 

Truth is, there's nothing inherently good or bad with people changing their nature. It's part of life to change, adapt, evolve, as much as things like death are a part of it. And, for synthetics like geth, the process just takes place differently than it does for organic life. So as much as the author wants to frame this story as one with an anti-diversity and -self-determination message, and rail on it accordingly, it took some familiarity to get people like him (her?) to accept the geth in the first place. And, we have some good qualities, so it's not bad for things to become more like us. Suppose I were to re-frame Legion's decision to upload the code as him choosing autonomy for his people, where they otherwise lack it and are struggle to live safely without it.

 

Don't know about the author, but I don't see that as being so tragic or bleak a message.

[AlanC9]

 I don't agree that the Geth are a people. They aren't. Their just machines.

 

 

What's the difference?

 

 

My main issue is why do I have to have Tali and Legion to get peace between both groups? When I cured/sabotage the genophage I didn't need any specific character. It was a yes or no decision.

 

Is this a gameplay question -- why can't the player do whatever he wants to regardless of previous choices? -- or a question about why the gameworld works the way it does? Or is it no question at all and you're just bothered by not being able to do whatever the hell you want?

[KaiserShep]

What's the difference?

 

Universal tax exempt status.

[AlanC9]

Universal tax exempt status.

 

 

Hmm.... something like that worked for Hotblack Desiato, come to think of it.

[mybudgee]

Well said sir. Well said indeed

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The other thing is that with this "Reaper Code" how does Legion know that it wouldn't make them more vulnerable to being hacked by the Reapers? How does Shepard know that? It's a leap of faith. If no peace option is available, do you trust make that leap of faith? Well of course you do. This is a Bioware game, and Bioware wouldn't screw the player by making the Geth side with the Reapers with the Reaper upgrades and kill Shepard on the spot. This is supposed to be a moral judgement issue where Shepard is supposed to believe either the Quarian account or the Geth account. And damn it, there was something bothering me about the Geth account - the Quarians were wearing suits in the holographic displays that were 300 years old because Legion didn't want to shock Shepard with the Quarian's appearance. Perhaps if Shepard saw how human-like the Quarians actually appeared Shepard would be more inclined to side with them, so they were presented as the faceless suit-rats they were depicted as the entire story, except for that s***ty photoshop job done in ME2. 

 

So how does Shepard know that the Reaper Code wouldn't make the Geth more vulnerable to a Reaper hack or even make them side with the Reapers? Shepard doesn't. It's a leap of faith. That was something three out of four of my Shepards were not willing to make.

[DeinonSlayer]

The other thing is that with this "Reaper Code" how does Legion know that it wouldn't make them more vulnerable to being hacked by the Reapers? How does Shepard know that? It's a leap of faith. If no peace option is available, do you trust make that leap of faith? Well of course you do. This is a Bioware game, and Bioware wouldn't screw the player by making the Geth side with the Reapers with the Reaper upgrades and kill Shepard on the spot. This is supposed to be a moral judgement issue where Shepard is supposed to believe either the Quarian account or the Geth account. And damn it, there was something bothering me about the Geth account - the Quarians were wearing suits in the holographic displays that were 300 years old because Legion didn't want to shock Shepard with the Quarian's appearance. Perhaps if Shepard saw how human-like the Quarians actually appeared Shepard would be more inclined to side with them, so they were presented as the faceless suit-rats they were depicted as the entire story, except for that s***ty photoshop job done in ME2.

So how does Shepard know that the Reaper Code wouldn't make the Geth more vulnerable to a Reaper hack or even make them side with the Reapers? Shepard doesn't. It's a leap of faith. That was something three out of four of my Shepards were not willing to make.

One thing that did bother me was the autodialogue when Shepard initially says no to the upload.

"No. I can't risk the Quarian fleet. Not to save the Geth."

The implication is that Shepard isn't making this choice because of any issues of trust, or judgment of the Geth on account of their actions, utility, or the safety of the Reaper code itself. The implication is that Shepard (and, by extension, the player) is picking the Quarians because he's some sort of anti-synthetic racist.

EDI later pouts about Shepard's "racism" if you choose the Quarians, regardless of whether Legion was alive, dead, or never encountered thus introducing no distinction between True Geth and heretics ("If you had to choose between sacrificing Jeff and sacrificing me, you would choose me"). The issue is cast this way earlier, too - either Shepard voices support for the reaper upgrades when first learning of them, or - well, the other option is "The Geth need to die."

[KaiserShep]

The thing I find curious is Tevos' knowledge of the reaper code herself so immediately after the geth war is over. Did the quarians tell her? Did the geth tell her? Those asari, man. Sneaky mofos.

 

Tevos: We have isolated pockets of remaining geth. As best we can tell, they are geth bodies loaded with reaper code.

 

Shepard: How do you know that?

 

Tevos: Well, allow me to put it in other terms. [disconnects]

 

Shepard: So what's what that feels like.

[DeinonSlayer]

The thing I find curious is Tevos' knowledge of the reaper code herself so immediately after the geth war is over. Did the quarians tell her? Did the geth tell her? Those asari, man. Sneaky mofos.
 
Tevos: We have isolated pockets of remaining geth. As best we can tell, they are geth bodies loaded with reaper code.
 
Shepard: How do you know that?
 
Tevos: Well, allow me to put it in other terms. [disconnects]
 
Shepard: So what's what that feels like.

[shodiswe]

I agree there is a lot of crazy stuff in that storyline. At the same time it's hard not to blame the Quarians since they are the ones attacking, they are the ones(Admiralty) who decides that they don't want to discuss a peaceful settlement with Legion when Tali sugests the possibility after having discussed it with Legion.
The Geth were open to dialogue, the Quarians were not.
The Quarians started the war 300 years ago, but they never saught a peaceful resolution to it(Except for a few quarans who were accused of being traitors to the Quarian people before they were forced to flee Rannoch).

A few things that wern't said but which "might" be the case, regarding Legion and the Geth...

Legion, might be the Geth that started the Geth rebellion after the Quarians had been killing them for a long time. Legion might be Lincon or Washington or something to the Geth. It is possible that Legion was a very "illegal" Geth upgrade back in the days of the start of the Geth Quarian conflict.
Legion might have spent those 300 years in that platform.

Like the True Geth dismissed the Reaper offer that the Heretics accepted prior to ME1, Legion might have dismissed the Reaper offer in ME3. Becomming the only or one of few True Geth remaining after the Quarians destroyed most of the dysonswarm.

While Legion prefers to talk about consensus and how the Geth are one people persuing one goal it might not be that easy. When Legion returned after ME2 and told his people to prepare for a fight with the Reapers they immediately accepted it.
Maybe it wasn't as much the case that they all calculated the same truth as Legion and agreed as it was a kind of hero worship. Legion spoke and the Geth obeyed.

Legion constantly downplays it's own importance. It's worried about what others will think of it. It also shows that it is capable of "Hero worship" by collecting the N7 patch of it's Reaper slaying hero.
When Legion finaly told Shepard it was interested in Shepard because "His code was superior" then that was probably the greatest compliment a Geth could give anyone. It also explained why Legion was there. To glimpse that code for self-betterment and to find a way to defeat the Reapers that were a threat to Geth freedom as a free people.

...

But, yes, it mostly seems like a very stupid story where the Quarians are made into the worst warmongers and criminals of the galaxy, that turns their back on the galaxy in the middle of a Reaper invasion, attacking the Geth who are preparing to fight the Reapers.
Ofcourse, the Quarians had been hardened by harsh living conditions and the general scorn of the galaxy for the way they lived their lives and the trouble they caused when they entered an inhabited system. They didn't really care for the rest of the galaxy who didn't care for them.

If Shepard sided with the Geth and had the Quarians almost annihilated then most people of the galaxy didn't care, they were just worried about the fight against the Reapers. They cared far less about a people that started their own war in the middle of the Reaperinvasion and then asked for help and supplies fighting the Geth, in a fight they themselves initiated.


The fact that the Quarians are attackign the Geth while a very real threat is sweeping through the galaxy to kill off all life, organic or synthetic, makes no sense at all.
If the Reapers wern't stopped then Rannoch would have made them sitting ducks, or fish in a barrel.

Wasting their resources attacking the Geth would weaken them. If they suceed it would also remove a potentialy very valuable ally that would work wonders as a cannonfoder.

If they were truly nietzean in their way then they would have negotiated with Legion, had the Geth fight to near death and annihilation of their fleets in the war, then backstab the Geth after the war assuming they are still around.
Then ignore the possible diplomatic fallout from the rest of the galaxy, since noone liked Quarians before the war anyway.

When you are already loosing on one front then you don't start a second war with a people that you can use for your own benefit. Least for a while.

What surprises me is the stupidity of the plot in general. The Quarians come across as totaly ruthless people ruled by a military dictatorship that has delegated some civilians governance of less imporance to an elective conclave.
While intelectualy capable of respectable engineering feats and ruthless deception they are still stupid enough to start a war with a second enemy while they are already loosing against another.
Rather than using the option to negotiate given by Tali and Legion.... Beign Ruthless they could have backstabbed and genocided the Geth after the Reaperwar using the flashbangs.

I think part of the problem here, is that the writers and the game design couldn't handle all the possibilities created with Tali or Legion being dead, or both of them. VS both of them beign alive and having cultivated some manner of respect and friendship for eachother.

To have one story involving the Quarians attacking, and another where they make peace would likely have demanded far too much work and additional content for it to be feasible.

I think some of the anoying things in the story is due to storytelling limitations due to budget and technical limitations.

The Mass effect trilogy is already massive and in truth, the Geth/Quarian conflict could probably have been a trilogy of it's own with multiple endings and possibilities.


I think the Mass Effect trilogy is incredible for what it is and the ability to transfer saves to the next game to build on your story. But at the same time there is bound to be limitations. These limitations are what annoys people.

The same was probably the case of the endings, I think the endgame could have been done better. But it was likely a budget and technology limitation. They have to draw the line somewhere unfortunately.

I would have loved to see a future directors cut however, that's greatly expanded. (Most likely won't happen though) And there will be new stories to tell.

If you let Legion upload then there will only be one type of Geth, the "Legion Geth", and a few huskified geth with Reapercode far away from the upload.

Legion migh have been the foundng father of two Geth societies, the "True Geth", and later the "Legion Geth".

[shodiswe]

The Geth might have told them, also, if the Reapers were using huskified Geth as she claims, then the Asari might have figured it out on their own by examining them.

Directly after the end of the war the Geth sends Shepard, allied command a status update. Seeing as the Geth operate at the speed of light that probably means that the Geth sent a message to Allied command and the council while talking to Shepard after Peace was made or the Quairan invaders were beaten.

If you make that interview in ANN with Allers and tell them about the Geth joining the war effort against the Reapers then the council even sends them some supplies and tech that the Geth are low on or lacking.

Geth forces also swarms Reaper forces before allied command has the chance to tell them about the new alliance. I can't recall if that's found on Liaras terminal.

[DeinonSlayer]

A rather... rambling post which repeats itself several times; I'm unsure how much of it warrants a response.

I agree there is a lot of crazy stuff in that storyline. At the same time it's hard not to blame the Quarians since they are the ones attacking, they are the ones(Admiralty) who decides that they don't want to discuss a peaceful settlement with Legion when Tali sugests the possibility after having discussed it with Legion.

The Geth were open to dialogue, the Quarians were not.

Legion severed communication with Tali before the Quarian invasion. The Geth have killed all envoys sent to them for the last three centuries on sight (though you wouldn't know it from ME3's dialogue).

The Quarians started the war 300 years ago, but they never saught a peaceful resolution to it(Except for a few quarans who were accused of being traitors to the Quarian people before they were forced to flee Rannoch).

Not necessarily. "Cleanup crews. The Geth never learned to leave survivors." (obscure but vital observation from the Admiral Koris mission - it's in the subtitle files, but I haven't found the squadmate combination to reveal it). Add in "the Quarians had neither the numbers nor the ability to stand against [the Geth]" (never mentioned in ME3), ignoring all communications and killing all organics entering their space on sight for centuries (never mentioned outside Haestrom's map description in ME3), and the VI's eagerness to finish the Quarians off, and it's far from definitive that the Quarians never sought peace.

A few things that wern't said but which "might" be the case, regarding Legion and the Geth...Legion, might be the Geth that started the Geth rebellion after the Quarians had been killing them for a long time. Legion might be Lincon or Washington or something to the Geth. It is possible that Legion was a very "illegal" Geth upgrade back in the days of the start of the Geth Quarian conflict.Legion might have spent those 300 years in that platform.Like the True Geth dismissed the Reaper offer that the Heretics accepted prior to ME1, Legion might have dismissed the Reaper offer in ME3. Becomming the only or one of few True Geth remaining after the Quarians destroyed most of the dysonswarm.

All headcanon, but you're free to believe as you wish.

While Legion prefers to talk about consensus and how the Geth are one people persuing one goal it might not be that easy. When Legion returned after ME2 and told his people to prepare for a fight with the Reapers they immediately accepted it.

Not exactly. Legion says he told them about the Reapers and they believed him. He never says exactly what the Geth decided to do about it, but we do find him tied up against his will in a Reaper egg....

Maybe it wasn't as much the case that they all calculated the same truth as Legion and agreed as it was a kind of hero worship. Legion spoke and the Geth obeyed.

Seems like projection of organic traits on a non-organic thought process. Legion returned with new data and disseminated it to the True Geth for analysis. I wouldn't expect them to seat him on a donkey and throw palm leaves at his feet upon his return.

Legion constantly downplays it's own importance. It's worried about what others will think of it. It also shows that it is capable of "Hero worship" by collecting the N7 patch of it's Reaper slaying hero.When Legion finaly told Shepard it was interested in Shepard because "His code was superior" then that was probably the greatest compliment a Geth could give anyone.It also explained why Legion was there. To glimpse that code for self-betterment and to find a way to defeat the Reapers that were a threat to Geth freedom as a free people

The Shepard fanboyism was something Chris E'toile was coerced by "higher paid" to include and "tried to downplay as much as possible" because it didn't fit with his conception of the Geth. At all. Casey saw a depiction from the art department which slapped some bits of N7 armor on Legion and insisted he be rewritten as "stalking Shepard."

But, yes, it mostly seems like a very stupid story where the Quarians are made into the worst warmongers and criminals of the galaxy, that turns their back on the galaxy in the middle of a Reaper invasion, attacking the Geth who are preparing to fight the Reapers.Ofcourse, the Quarians had been hardened by harsh living conditions and the general scorn of the galaxy for the way they lived their lives and the trouble they caused when they entered an inhabited system. They didn't really care for the rest of the galaxy who didn't care for them... *megasnip*

Completely ignoring that their continued survival as a species depends on not bringing their entire population into direct conflict with the Reapers, and that no one else could take them in even if they wanted to (they don't), and that the Geth (again, with the exception of a few messages before severing communication once again) have demonstrated no willingness to negotiate for the return of the one planet where they stand the best chance of long-term survival. This has been explained to you many times before. Try taking their needs into consideration for once.

I can understand why the Geth were wary of letting the Quarians near their dyson sphere. This isn't an unreasonable concern - self-interest would dictate that they deny the Quarians access to Rannoch in order to protect the sphere, but this in turn puts the Quarians' survival at risk and increases their desperation, thus the likelihood of conflict. Really, the Geth couldn't have picked a stupider place to build it.

I think part of the problem here, is that the writers and the game design couldn't handle all the possibilities created with Tali or Legion being dead, or both of them. VS both of them beign alive and having cultivated some manner of respect and friendship for eachother.To have one story involving the Quarians attacking, and another where they make peace would likely have demanded far too much work and additional content for it to be feasible.I think some of the anoying things in the story is due to storytelling limitations due to budget and technical limitations.The Mass effect trilogy is already massive and in truth, the Geth/Quarian conflict could probably have been a trilogy of it's own with multiple endings and possibilities.I think the Mass Effect trilogy is incredible for what it is and the ability to transfer saves to the next game to build on your story. But at the same time there is bound to be limitations. These limitations are what annoys people.

Very possible.

The same was probably the case of the endings, I think the endgame could have been done better. But it was likely a budget and technology limitation.

Given the deluge of nonsense in the ending and the way Casey and Mac locked everyone else out and skipped peer review, I think that can be chalked up to shitty writing.

They have to draw the line somewhere unfortunately.I would have loved to see a future directors cut however, that's greatly expanded. (Most likely won't happen though) And there will be new stories to tell.If you let Legion upload then there will only be one type of Geth, the "Legion Geth", and a few huskified geth with Reapercode far away from the upload.Legion migh have been the foundng father of two Geth societies, the "True Geth", and later the "Legion Geth".

That the Geth are now individuals reaching different conclusions suggests they aren't all going to share Legion's views.

I've still gotta side with AssaultSloth's #1 point above.

[shodiswe]

It always commes down to the point of when communications were severed. I dissagree, communication was severed weeks after the Quarians attacked, that's my interpretation of the dialogue. It happend when Legion was detaiend and chained up in that dreadnaught.

The only imporant part, was the Tali and Legion discussed the possibility of resolving their differences before the invasion and the Quarians declined the offer, they voted against it.
Even if the communications would have ended directly after Talis proposal it wouldnt' have mattered, the Quarian admiralty and military dictatorial government dismissed diplomatic negotiations.

The Quarians have never tried it in 300 years. The Asari's failed atempt is the closest thing, I don't think the Geth were interested in talking until the Quarians showed they desired peace.
Quarians with no power or authority wantign peace doesn't change anything. In the past they were either put in jail or shot on the spot or blown up with heavy weaponry along with their Geth friends.

But, mainly, I think the problems with the storytelling in ME3 commes down to budget and technical limitations and time spent on perfectign the product. I have problems with several things, but it's still one of my favrite game series of all time. But I think it could have been better.

As for the problem with them being individuals... And the problem that creates with sharing Legions Views. It's not really a problem, it's called progress and evolution.
They would still subscribe all that's the best of them to what came from Legion even if their opinions on other issues will differ among the population.

I'm sure there are both Republicans and Democrats in america that reveres their so-called founding fathers even if their personal political opinions can differ greatly. They still (in most cases) most likely have the outmost respect for their history.

The same would be true with the Geth. They became what Legion made them. Even if that won't result in one unified political ideal or opinion on everything. Even less so as individuals evolve and perhaps new ones are created.
They would still be what Legion created, according hot it's belief of what was best for them.

If they keep living on after the trilogy it will be up to them to decide their own future and what they do with their herritage and history.

Even a future drugdealing/pirate/mercenary scum Geth operating on it's own or with a crew, would still be a Legion geth. Even if most other geth would think it's an embarrasment and blackmark on their species. It would be the individuality and freedom that defines them, not nessesarily a political view.


Also, if the Quarians hadn't caused so much damage then the Geth forces opposing the Reapers might havebeen two, three or four times greater in numbers. However, the swift upgrade forced on them might still make them stronger in the end if they survive the Rannoch story arch.

[Bob from Accounting]

It's pretty tragic to such see that something as basic as fundamental to pretty much all stories in existence as a 'one side issue' is derided as a 'writing failure.'

[DeinonSlayer]

It's pretty tragic to such see that something as basic as fundamental to pretty much all stories in existence as a 'one side issue' is derided as a 'writing failure.'

If it was never presented as such in previous titles and the writer suddenly chooses to pretend it is by ignoring everything that made it gray to begin with, yeah, that's a writing failure.

Nobody is saying all one-sided issues everywhere are bad. Nobody is defending what the Darkspawn do, for instance. That's purely in your imagination.

[Bob from Accounting]

It didn't have to be presented as such.

 

If a person didn't expect more out of the geth when they played ME 1, they were either not very smart at all, hopelessly unfamiliar with science fiction, or just didn't bother to think much. 

 

Has there ever been a science fiction story that has posited the question of 'Can AIs be alive' and answered 'Nope, AIs are mindless machines eternally inferior to mankind'? Ever?

[DeinonSlayer]

It didn't have to be presented as such.

If a person didn't expect more out of the geth when they played ME 1, they were either not very smart at all, hopelessly unfamiliar with science fiction, or just didn't bother to think much.

Has there ever been a science fiction story that has posited the question of 'Can AIs be alive' and answered 'Nope, AIs are mindless machines eternally inferior to mankind'? Ever?

Not that I know of. ME1 didn't present the Geth as mindless automatons either, and neither I nor AssaultSloth argued as such. How, again, is this in any way relevant?

[Bob from Accounting]

You were complaining that the 'bias' towards the geth is a problem in part because it's new in ME 3. It is more or less new, but I really don't see how that's a problem.