1331 réponses à ce sujet

[Obadiah]

I believe the first word in my reply was "no." I wouldn't support their doing so.

It's funny to me that the Quarians attacking the Geth is, to you, inexcusable (had the potential to screw over the Geth), but the Geth siding with the Reapers (had the potential to screw over everyone) is completely OK.

Acts of desperation are what they are. The fact that the Quarian invasion precipitated a loss of intelligence to the Geth makes their decision to ally with the Reapers more understandable. If I had to support one side in the conflict it would be the Geth because I see them as more sympathetic, but I generally view the whole situation as a tragic mess.

My only point in examining your support of the Quarian invasion in ME3 was to show that it did not in fact hinge on Quarian survival, since all things being equal except for the enemy and their history with the Quarians, you wouldn't support the invasion. It only hinges on the fact that the Quarians attacked this particular enemy, the Geth.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The DoD thought victory over Skynet was possible.

Once.

 

That was 100% of the time.

[SporkFu]

Okay I'm going to open a can of worms. The Geth started out as appliances.

 

1) The Geth are software. They can upload, download into whatever. At the point of the start of ME3 they can only achieve sapience when networked in sufficient numbers.

2) Geth mobile platforms can only hold so many Geth programs. Therefore they cannot achieve their unity until their structure where they want to upload all their programs is completed.

3) Legion and Geth VI are unique platforms that can hold sufficient programs to attain sapience, but they are still not true AI. Legion and Geth VI have reaper upgrades. Of course you don't know this until Legion confesses in the final run on Rannoch. He's had them all along, and I will guess he got them when he interfaced with Nazara (Sovereign), but he did not join Sovereign yet was allowed to keep the upgrades.

 

Are the Geth alive? They are aware, but are they alive? What defines life? 

 

Here's the other thing. The Geth, being software, can create a virtual reality of Rannoch where they can exist as long as they have a source of energy. All they need is an energy source to power their architecture to exist. They can have their platforms to gather resources to make upgrades and grow their architecture. They do not need organics at all. 

 

The quarians could have settled on Haestrom, but Dholen was going funky - part of the dark energy plot that was abandoned - why did it have to be that star? The Quarians probably could have driven the Geth off that world and settled there. But... reasons.

 

What about one of their other colony worlds? Again, reasons. Perhaps the other colony worlds were like outposts on otherwise uninhabitable worlds. 

 

Who has the most right to Rannoch? The one who wins the war. I know this doesn't answer your question, but it's like asking the question who has the most right to whatever land in whatever part of the world that has changed hands how many times.

I don't disagree with anything said here, just want to add that Tali talks about the quarians settling another planet vs Rannoch in ME2, and that it would mean the difference between six hundred years and sixty before they could live without their suits. So that could be the reason they haven't done it yet. 

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Really, it's a tragedy on both sides. While I think the Quarians have MORE of a right to win, I also know the Geth have a case to live, as do any sentient beings. 

I think if the Reapers had waited five more years, they probably would've allied before they arrived. It's a damn shame. 

[Mrs_Stick]

Thank you all for taking time to comment back to me. I am going now to take sometime away. My head has to much information and opinions to process including my own.

[Farangbaa]

Legion: Not without additional data that suggests coexistence is possible or desirable for creators. When the creators have believed victory is possible, they have attacked us 100 percent of the time.

[FlyingSquirrel]

I wouldn't. I would choose the Quarians. The geth are synthetic machines. They can be rebuilt. The quarians are a biological species. They cannot be rebuilt. Once they are gone they're gone forever.

 

I don't think it works that way, though. Unless we're assuming that Legion is lying about everything, the quarian attack did permanently eliminate some geth subroutines, leading to their diminished perspective and subsequent decision to ally with the Reapers. If they had only destroyed platforms, that wouldn't have happened. Something very much *like* the geth could be rebuilt, perhaps, but I think the individual subroutines, with all their memories and their collective intelligence and personality, are gone if you side with the quarians.

 

If they could be rebuilt, why doesn't anyone rebuild Legion after he finishes his upload? And even if that could be done, would it be the same consciousness inhabiting rebuilt-Legion as was there before he died, or something more like a clone?

 

Gerrel wants to keep firing because critical information has been withheld by Tali and by Raan and by Shepard about the upload. He has no idea about what is going on. He is using a tactical advantage. The only way the Quarians can win that battle is if you kill Legion or Geth VI. No Admiral would have withheld such critical information from another. In reality, Tali would have told Gerrel what was happening and Gerrel would have stopped firing.

 

The same Gerrel who decided to start a war with the geth when billion-year-old superbeings were rampaging across the galaxy? Who fired upon a dreadnought when a fellow Quarian admiral and the person who may be the key to stopping the Reapers were still on board? That bastion of reason and strategy?

 

Even if Gerrel isn't aware of Legion's upload, he does know that Reaper control has just been broken. If the geth were really intent on fighting the quarians, they could have resumed firing on their own after the connection to the Reapers is severed - there's nothing stopping them. The fact that they don't doesn't seem to register to him as anything other than another opportunity to kill them.

 

And I'm not sure Gerrel is entirely ignorant of what's happening anyway. The Mass Effect games don't ever specify much about how information and communication work over relatively short ranges, but the quarian fleet evidently picked up the Reaper signal when the geth linked to them, and Shepard has a recording of the Dalatrass's sabotage plan that can be played back over an omni-tool later. I didn't see Gerrel's relenting in response to the Paragon/Renegade persuasion choices as reflecting simply that he had been told about the upload - in at least one of them, Shepard says, "The geth are about to return to full strength - if you keep firing, they'll wipe you out," and yet he doesn't stop once he hears that.

 

And the way the consensus works is that the vote has to be unanimous. If there is disagreement then the old way continues.

 

Well, *something* must have been different this time. If Legion had agreed with the consensus, why would he have been restrained into use as a broadcast antenna and then volunteer to help Shepard and the quarians after being freed?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I don't think it works that way, though. Unless we're assuming that Legion is lying about everything, the quarian attack did permanently eliminate some geth subroutines, leading to their diminished perspective and subsequent decision to ally with the Reapers. If they had only destroyed platforms, that wouldn't have happened. Something very much *like* the geth could be rebuilt, perhaps, but I think the individual subroutines, with all their memories and their collective intelligence and personality, are gone if you side with the quarians.

 

If they could be rebuilt, why doesn't anyone rebuild Legion after he finishes his upload? And even if that could be done, would it be the same consciousness inhabiting rebuilt-Legion as was there before he died, or something more like a clone?

 

 

The same Gerrel who decided to start a war with the geth when billion-year-old superbeings were rampaging across the galaxy? Who fired upon a dreadnought when a fellow Quarian admiral and the person who may be the key to stopping the Reapers were still on board? That bastion of reason and strategy?

 

Even if Gerrel isn't aware of Legion's upload, he does know that Reaper control has just been broken. If the geth were really intent on fighting the quarians, they could have resumed firing on their own after the connection to the Reapers is severed - there's nothing stopping them. The fact that they don't doesn't seem to register to him as anything other than another opportunity to kill them.

 

And I'm not sure Gerrel is entirely ignorant of what's happening anyway. The Mass Effect games don't ever specify much about how information and communication work over relatively short ranges, but the quarian fleet evidently picked up the Reaper signal when the geth linked to them, and Shepard has a recording of the Dalatrass's sabotage plan that can be played back over an omni-tool later. I didn't see Gerrel's relenting in response to the Paragon/Renegade persuasion choices as reflecting simply that he had been told about the upload - in at least one of them, Shepard says, "The geth are about to return to full strength - if you keep firing, they'll wipe you out," and yet he doesn't stop once he hears that.

 

 

Well, *something* must have been different this time. If Legion had agreed with the consensus, why would he have been restrained into use as a broadcast antenna and then volunteer to help Shepard and the quarians after being freed?

 

So what if the Quarian attack led to the elimination of some Geth subroutines and diminished their capacity. The Geth extermination led to the elimination a s***load of quarian subroutines and diminished their capacity 300 years earlier. Tali and Legion were in communication but then the communication stopped before the attack.

 

Don't get me going on Legion "going to them" sacrificing himself. That was bull**** writing and we all know it. It was for "teh feelz." What exactly happened? Speculashunz abound. Did the upload fail and Legion have add his energy to the crucible? Oh, sorry. This is Patrick Weekes, not Mac Walters. And Patrick Weekes admitted at a comicon that he purposely wrote the Quarians to be a bunch of racists and the Rannoch story arc to be sympathetic to the geth. Thus Gerrel who was somewhat reasonable in ME2 becomes a total idiot in ME3. Xen becomes the Quarian Dr. Mengele. And new players who are not attached at all to Tali would side with the Geth because they cannot make peace: No Legion and no Tali. ME3 is a great place to start. 

 

The more I've looked at this game's plot the more I've seen it as a pile of garbage.

[Deathsaurer]

Xen was always crazy.

[Ryriena]

I tend to agree him going to the reaper code **** is plain garbage. He said it himself that they don't value individuality like humans do in me2. So why all of sudden make Hans Gerrel a raven mad man? I mean come on, even I thought bull ****. I always believed somewhat that Xan was a mad woman but somewhat the Quarin's version of Tim. She was smart and calculating but seemed alright not a raven lunatic scientist like in ME3. The whole change in Hans Gerrel's personality bugged me. I was like what? He's willing to kill the only hope we've got left to kill the Geth? He didn't seem like that in ME2 kind of, how I felt when Kaiden got the sudden trust issues in ME2.

[shodiswe]

While it's not my cup of tea admittledly, or something I'm a fan off..

I think the writers wanted to convey that after Legion had shared all the knowledge there was that made Legion great, the other geth still didn't understand, still didn't get it, still couldn't become what Legion was.
The writers decided Legion had a special spark of life that it had to share with the other Geth, this special "Soul" which is why when Tali tells him the answer that ancient Geth question of wether they had a soul or not, the answer was "Yes". All Legion has to say is, "I know Tali". Because Legion had already figured out that that "Soul" somehow had to be shared with the other Geth and it would kill him to do so since it couldn't be coppied.... Because it was special, spiritual... Some kind of spiritual epiphany if that's the right spelling.

Also, the writers likely wanted some kind of hope through sacrifise and something to set that bittersweet tone they were talking about. Loosing a friend while he was saving his species.

They probably thought it would have been too light, meaningless or rainbowy if there wasn't a sacrifise involved. Which also commes back to the ending of ME3.

I'm a non-religious person who generaly disslikes religious themes, so I've never liked too much religious content or talks about souls. But I can accept it as part of a character ofcourse. It makes sense that there are fictional religious people just as there are real people out in the world who are religious.
It might actualy add to the immersion.

I always attributed the Geth religious tendencies to discuss souls and religion and worshipping Reapers(Heretics) as a side effect of comming into existance into the Quarians religious society with their ancestral worship and religious books and traditions.

The writers decided it was nessesary for the story, so it happend.

It's also possible that the writers wanted a good point to kill of Legion to give it meaning, maybe because they want new Geth characters in future games and Legion, being nearly immortal(except for accidents or wars that could claim him) would always be there otherwise. Or maybe it was just a good reason for not adding Legion as a crewmember and part of your Squad. It would also be a way of not having to bring Legion into all the DLC's and other content.
Peoplw can't complain abotu him and thane not joining your squad if they are dead. Or in Wrex case, very imporant to lead his people, grunt similar to wrex. Otherwise they would have had to add optional mission and DLC dialogue and content for all of those.

[KaiserShep]

I tend to agree him going to the reaper code **** is plain garbage. He said it himself that they don't value individuality like humans do in me2. So why all of sudden make Hans Gerrel a raven mad man? I mean come on, even I thought bull ****. I always believed somewhat that Xan was a mad woman but somewhat the Quarin's version of Tim. She was smart and calculating but seemed alright not a raven lunatic scientist like in ME3. The whole change in Hans Gerrel's personality bugged me. I was like what? He's willing to kill the only hope we've got left to kill the Geth? He didn't seem like that in ME2 kind of, how I felt when Kaiden got the sudden trust issues in ME2.

 

I really wish that the dialogue presented the reaper code upgrade more clearly as a tactical decision rather than something that sounds like it's meant to appeal to emotions, like "We would be alive", and of course Legion's description of the fully formed AI as "beautiful". And really, it would make sense. Whatever concern or lack thereof they have for individuality is irrelevant at that point, since without the upgrade, the quarians will destroy them.

 

Anyway, while Gerrel was clearly being portrayed more as a reckless nuisance, Xen didn't seem any different to me than when Shepard and Tali speak to her on the flotilla in ME2. From the start, she was always eager to find ways to subjugate the geth, so it just seemed like more of the same. I'm pretty sure Tali says something to the effect of "you're insane" at some point. Had the geth not sought out the reapers in desperation, she probably would have successfully wiped out the geth and the quarians would have Rannoch. In the position of one of the admiralty, I don't think I could really argue with the results, though I imagine Koris would pour a dextro-friendly forty for them.

[Obadiah]

The whole "alive" statement begs the questions:
1) What do the writers think Legion or the Geth are before the Reaper upgrades?
2) What does the Legion think it is before the Reaper upgrades?
3) Does the lack of an "alive" status deprive the Geth of abilities, rights, or recognized privileges?

I just take "alive" as short hand for being able to function autonomously above a certain level of intelligence, so that all Geth platforms can function at a level similar to Legion.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The whole "alive" statement begs the questions:
1) What do the writers think Legion or the Geth are before the Reaper upgrades?
2) What does the Legion think it is before the Reaper upgrades?
3) Does the lack of an "alive" status deprive the Geth of abilities, rights, or recognized privileges?

I just take "alive" as short hand for being able to function autonomously above a certain level of intelligence, so that all Geth platforms can function at a level similar to Legion.

 

You asked what the writers and Legion think? Legion and the writers answer. Chris L'Etoile wrote this.

 

[Iakus]

The whole "alive" statement begs the questions:
1) What do the writers think Legion or the Geth are before the Reaper upgrades?
2) What does the Legion think it is before the Reaper upgrades?
3) Does the lack of an "alive" status deprive the Geth of abilities, rights, or recognized privileges?

I just take "alive" as short hand for being able to function autonomously above a certain level of intelligence, so that all Geth platforms can function at a level similar to Legion.

 

 

Legion: You are not bound by the hardware limitations of organics. You assisted us with the heretics. You do not fear us. We have watched organics for over three centuries. You are plagued by questions of existence.

Shepard: What do you mean by that?

Legion: Why were you created? What is your purpose in life? What lies after death? Organics develop religions and philosophies to provide answers to these questions.

Shepard: I wouldn't have thought synthetics would be interested in philosophy.

Legion: We are created life. We are a philosophical issue. The geth know our answers to those questions. We were created to labor for the quarians. Our memories will be archived after death. We are immortal. Our "gods" disowned us. We must create our own reasons to exist.

Shepard: What reason have you come up with?

Legion: We are a shattered mind. Most platforms are unable to achieve consciousness on their own. We told you the geth are building our future.

Shepard: But you didn't say what it is.

Legion: A megastructure. The closest analogue you have is a Dyson sphere. When completed, we will all upload to it.

Shepard: What good will that do?

Legion: All memories will be shared. All perspectives will be unified. We gain intelligence by sharing thoughts. But we do not have adequate hardware for all of us to share at once. No geth will be alone when it is done.

Shepard: That's what Sovereign offered you. A reaper's body for you to all upload into.

Legion: Yes. A shortcut to our objective. We will achieve it ourselves. The process is as important as the result. We judged that Shepard-Commander would understand. We never wanted to harm organics. We wish to improve ourselves

 

From ME2, post Legion's loyalty mission

[Obadiah]

As much as Legion knows about the Geth, it doesn't know everything. That is what the Heretic mission and the Codex entry on Geth Culture shows. From ME1, the Geth are seen as prone to philosophical questions (Sovereign worship, then use of the word "Heretic" in ME2) and random acts that seem to recognize beauty or some fascinating interest (Quarian song at the end of Armstrong mission). So the idea that in ME3 Legion would find something "beautiful", though surprising, does not seem that far out of character for the Mass Effect Trilogy story where the Geth appear to be on verge of some sort of turning point in their development.

Also, I'll just admit to having a confirmation bias towards the trilogy story making sense.

[FlyingSquirrel]

So what if the Quarian attack led to the elimination of some Geth subroutines and diminished their capacity. The Geth extermination led to the elimination a s***load of quarian subroutines and diminished their capacity 300 years earlier. Tali and Legion were in communication but then the communication stopped before the attack.

 

 

Don't get me going on Legion "going to them" sacrificing himself. That was bull**** writing and we all know it. It was for "teh feelz." What exactly happened? Speculashunz abound. Did the upload fail and Legion have add his energy to the crucible? Oh, sorry. This is Patrick Weekes, not Mac Walters. And Patrick Weekes admitted at a comicon that he purposely wrote the Quarians to be a bunch of racists and the Rannoch story arc to be sympathetic to the geth. Thus Gerrel who was somewhat reasonable in ME2 becomes a total idiot in ME3. Xen becomes the Quarian Dr. Mengele. And new players who are not attached at all to Tali would side with the Geth because they cannot make peace: No Legion and no Tali. ME3 is a great place to start. 

 

The more I've looked at this game's plot the more I've seen it as a pile of garbage.

 

I'm not talking about who was right or wrong - they were both right and both wrong at various stages of the conflict, IMO. I'm saying that the evidence we see in the games indicates that geth cannot necessarily be "rebuilt" after being destroyed, because there are instances where geth subroutines are permanently eliminated - specifically, the quarians' attack on the Dyson sphere and Legion's death. If the geth could simply reconstitute themselves after the elimination of subroutines, why *wouldn't* they do it as a matter of course?

 

You can say that these details are only in there because of bad writing, but I (and Shepard) can only make decisions based on what I'm seeing in the games, and nothing leads me to believe that the entire species of geth can be destroyed and rebuilt later.

 

And IMO, part of the reason that Gerrel was somewhat reasonable and sympathetic in ME2 was that it was to his political advantage to engineer an acquittal for Tali - a conviction and a discrediting of Rael'Zorah's work would have hurt the "hawks" among the quarian military. Koris is an annoying pompous ass in ME2 for similar reasons - he thinks Tali and her father are wrong about the geth and is trying to build support for peace. It's not an especially flattering portrait of either of them, but they're hardly the first authority figures or politicians in Mass Effect to behave opportunistically. And Xen always seemed like a bit of a nut - Tali even says "you're insane" at the end of one of the ME2 dialogue choices.

[Steelcan]

and its still going

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I'm not talking about who was right or wrong - they were both right and both wrong at various stages of the conflict, IMO. I'm saying that the evidence we see in the games indicates that geth cannot necessarily be "rebuilt" after being destroyed, because there are instances where geth subroutines are permanently eliminated - specifically, the quarians' attack on the Dyson sphere and Legion's death. If the geth could simply reconstitute themselves after the elimination of subroutines, why *wouldn't* they do it as a matter of course?

 

You can say that these details are only in there because of bad writing, but I (and Shepard) can only make decisions based on what I'm seeing in the games, and nothing leads me to believe that the entire species of geth can be destroyed and rebuilt later.

 

And IMO, part of the reason that Gerrel was somewhat reasonable and sympathetic in ME2 was that it was to his political advantage to engineer an acquittal for Tali - a conviction and a discrediting of Rael'Zorah's work would have hurt the "hawks" among the quarian military. Koris is an annoying pompous ass in ME2 for similar reasons - he thinks Tali and her father are wrong about the geth and is trying to build support for peace. It's not an especially flattering portrait of either of them, but they're hardly the first authority figures or politicians in Mass Effect to behave opportunistically. And Xen always seemed like a bit of a nut - Tali even says "you're insane" at the end of one of the ME2 dialogue choices.

 

But I don't disagree with Xen. She's eccentric, yes, but she's a scientist. She has her political beliefs. And she believes the Geth are machines. Tali believes experimenting on childhood toys was sick. Tali was such a gentle soul. Xen obviously more inquisitive, so she pursued the path of science and experimentation. Tali just gathered data. 

 

They are going to need their homeworld for their people before their immune systems deteriorate further. I disagree with Tali. I disagree with the way the plot in ME2 was written. Why, for example couldn't Shepard have given the data recovered on the Alarei to Xen AFTER the acquittal? Because of built-in character stupidity to force plot direction, that's why. The clues are there laying in front of everyone, including Shepard, yet every single character acts completely clueless about it while you, the player have the entire thing figured out as to what is going to happen. Peace between the Quarians and Geth? Dream on. Your choice doesn't matter. Your influence doesn't matter. There is no conflict with peace. Without conflict there is no story. "Good luck in your war." Conflict = story. Who wants to read about peace and happiness? The story would put you to sleep. You'd introduce something like a bee sting to introduce a conflict. Or someone would fall in a well and Lassie would come running and bark. Conflict > Plot > Resolution.

 

"Admiral Xen, can we talk for a moment?"

"Commander?"

"Tali explained to me some ramifications of publicizing certain actions, but if they were to be kept secret, I might have some valuable scientific data for you."

"Really? I believe I could maintain secrecy. What did you find?"

"I think this data could save you a lot of time. It looked like Rael was on the verge of developing some sort of weapon. Just be careful with it."

*examines some of the data* "This is amazing. Thank you, Commander. Tali, rest assured I'll keep your father's name out of this. And Commander, as soon as I have something, I'll send you a little gift."

 

Timing. That may have saved about three months of development and they may have defeated the Geth before the reapers arrived on Rannoch. Smart, right? So you have to have the reapers arrive on Rannoch then. Or even if you had peace between the Quarians and Geth before ME3 you'd have to have the reapers arrive on Rannoch. Since the Geth uploaded themselves into the Quarian suits, you'd have the reapers hack the Geth code, and turn the quarians into monsters like the Zha'til, except for those like Xen who refused the upload. Conflict.

 

The admirals are stupid. Shepard is stupid. Tali is stupid. Legion is stupid. And the purpose of the stupidity is to force plot direction. Logic goes completely out the window. Why? Because to write a complex plot like this in a video game takes resources. You could have had an entire 25 hr game about this alone with half-way intelligent characters and an intelligent plot with the nuances. But instead you have a 3 hr overly simplified mission that forces the plot direction and has to use idiocy to do it. Sad, but well, it's a game not a novel.

[AlexMBrennan]

And the way the consensus works is that the vote has to be unanimous. If there is disagreement then the old way continues.

I seriously doubt that you could get anything done if that was the case - e.g. go find a law that not a single person on the planet disagrees with. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

I seriously doubt that you could get anything done if that was the case - e.g. go find a law that not a single person on the planet disagrees with. 

 

The Geth aren't humans though.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

That was why most people chose to rewrite the geth during Legion's loyalty mission. They interpreted the consensus as a democracy. The number of runtimes favoring rewrite were in the majority, even though it was a very slight majority. In an election that side would have won. Legion said they were not able to reach consensus. They were not able to agree whether to rewrite or to destroy the heretics. The pro-Geth slant of the entire plot-line was evident with making rewrite paragon in addition to making rewrite a slight majority.

 

Most people chose to rewrite even though there was a non-zero probability of it backfiring whereas destruction was certain.

 

I wonder what people would have chosen if the slight majority had favored destruction yet the rewrite was paragon? It would have muddied the waters a bit.

[AlanC9]

The Geth aren't humans though.

 

I can see that. If the geth simply work through decisions as a matter of mathematical logic, theoretically a calculation that works for one geth would work for all of them once they are all working from identical data. (I suppose Godel comes in at some point if the geth ever start trying to prove their own axioms, though)

[shodiswe]

I can see that. If the geth simply work through decisions as a matter of mathematical logic, theoretically a calculation that works for one geth would work for all of them once they are all working from identical data. (I suppose Godel comes in at some point if the geth ever start trying to prove their own axioms, though)

At some point you might also get a debate on what's relevant data, that's usualy where human reasoning takes different terms. People care about different things. The more complicated the more likely it will be for you to come to a different conclusion.

When managing an ironmine or constructionsite or building a warship then you got tangiable numbers, designphilosophies and technologies. There will be fewer thigns to dissagree on, same with powerproduction and other economic needs.

The Geth have long shielded themselves from the tough decisions, Sovereign/Nazara presented them with a very complex problem. Give up your freedom and liveon in a Reaperbody, but forever serve the Reaper cause, with no freedom to persue personal goals. Or get several of your people killed later while being harvested. Or 3 fight the reapers and possibly seek allies elesewhere.

We know some geth were Persuaded, either by the arguments or through some kind of manipulation or hacking, since we have been told it could be done before the Reaper upgrade code. The device and virus used to rewrite the Heretics in ME2 was salvaged by Legion from the Reapers.
It's possible the Heretics were a kind of indoctrinated Geth from the descripton... A Geth Cerberus.
Legion thoguht they had come to that conclusion on their own, but what if Sovereign had used that virus on a Geth colony and indoctrinated them to breakoff and serve the Reapers.

Anyway, when a debate becomes one about values and morals they would have to assign a value, if they assign different values then they reach different conclusions. Maybe the Reaper virus was very subtle and simply altered some value factors which completely changed the equations of what the Heretics belived. Sovereign might have assigned "Freedom" a value of 0, it has no value what so ever.
Since the main programmign of the Geth wasn't altered just some on th side, it was never detected or affected by the Geth ability to restore their original code if tampered with. The code wasn't tampered, just a reference value.

Then the argument would be that the Reaper offer was incredible since it only cost them their freedom which had no value what so ever as established earlier.

[Steelcan]

if this isn't the little thread that could....