1331 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Right. That's the sort of thing I was thinking of when i spoke of axioms. Fact-value distinction and so forth. The heretics' run-time couldn't be proven to be an error.

I suppose Shepard is a Nietzschean figure there. He resolves the dispute by an act of will, establishing his own preferred value for the run-time by destroying or rewriting anyone who doesn't share it.

[shodiswe]

Some people don't consider the books cannon others do, still events in the books are often referenced in the games.

Mass Effect: Ascension, covers both how Cerberus treats kids like Jack, and Quarian politics and behaviour and lifestyle to set the the stage for ME2. It also introduses us to the standard greeting a Quarian gives when they return to the fleet and what they are expected to say to indicate that they are safe and not under duress. Like asking for a security detail.
Personaly I think I enjoyed most of that book.

// From the book
After reaching the Migrant Fleet, Kahlee(who we meet at Grissom academy in ME3(Andersons blonde GF)) gives her opinion on Sovereign's attack on the Citadel and it's influence on the Geth. It seems insignificant to her but it's apparently an important factor in deciding whether the Quarians will launch risky exploratory missions. The Admiralty hypothesizes that they may be able to use Reapers to influence the Geth and reclaim their homeworld.

The Cerberus attack on the Quarian ship turns out a decisive factor in sending a mission to find habitable worlds or Sovereign-like ships to drive the Geth from the Quarian homeworld.
//
Two years later in ME2 Rael, Han and Xen seems to have made unique and tangiable progress in finding a way to influence and disable the Geth while fighting them using advanced novel technology that hadn't been developed during the previous 300 years, not even by the experts on their homeworld during the morning war who created the Geth, while they were in their infancy.
Maybe a deal was made, but dealing with the devil usualy tends to bite you in your arse, which it did. The only person who could save the Quarians from their own repeated lack of good judgement was Shepard.

It is established expanded universe lore that the Quarians were exploring the possibility of using Reaper tech or Reaper influence to get the Geth of their Homeworld since the end of ME1. The death, destruction and power the reapers spread which they were informed about as the rest of the galaxy was trying to make them prepare for the Reapers arrival was seen as an opportunity to the Quarian admiralty.

What they found or what deals they might have made was never disclosed, but it was hinted at.

[Applepie_Svk]

The fact is that Hudson and Walters needed this plot to be a nonsenical, to have reason for whole synthetics vs organics, just a cheap excuse for last five minutes of whole trilogy. If they turned some of the stuff, like Legion wasn´t serving to reapers and geth haven´t willingly joined, but Legion was caught on some mission against Heretics and used to be as viable platform to spread the reaper signal, it would mean that creative directors would loose their excuse for final moments... it would also mean, that Heretics would need either to sabotage geth consensus or reaper support, when heretic´s fraction is just a little piece of whole geth nation, and you know something like a convetional victory against Reapers in space battle doesn´t fit into deus ex machina.

 

I did find an explation made in ME2 great, it was out of classic cliché made about AI in most if not all the scifi in the past, yet they had to retcon it with somehing along "We synthetics wants to be you - organics"

[KaiserShep]

I guess my biggest issue with the Rannoch arc is that its outcome in connection to the Catalyst conversation can potentially amount to an extremely cheap, dissatisfying gotcha. It comes off as a resolution to the big-picture issue at first, but it's inevitably doomed for a weak rug pulling.

[shodiswe]

The fact is that Hudson and Walters needed this plot to be a nonsenical, to have reason for whole synthetics vs organics, just a cheap excuse for last five minutes of whole trilogy. If they turned some of the stuff, like Legion wasn´t serving to reapers and geth haven´t willingly joined, but Legion was caught on some mission against Heretics and used to be as viable platform to spread the reaper signal, it would mean that creative directors would loose their excuse for final moments... it would also mean, that Heretics would need either to sabotage geth consensus or reaper support, when heretic´s fraction is just a little piece of whole geth nation, and you know something like a convetional victory against Reapers in space battle doesn´t fit into deus ex machina.
 
I did find an explation made in ME2 great, it was out of classic cliché made about AI in most if not all the scifi in the past, yet they had to retcon it with somehing along "We synthetics wants to be you - organics"

Even if they become more individualistic, they still wouldn't be like Organics. They would however have more freedom, like Legion to become part of future mass effect adventures and become people that you can talk to. Either to trade with, pickup missions from, help, start a rivalry with, fight, whatever. I don't think Legion ever said he wanted to be an organic, and constantly points out and the advantages to being synthetic, and shows off his ability to perform high altitude atmospheric assault drops during the server mission.

Wanting to improve because you notice you got a problem affectign your survival, isn't nessesarily the same as trying to become organic.

[Obadiah]

Legion mentions the Geth weakness of losing intelligence/strength/ability when apart in the default conversation in ME2, at the end of the option about Sovereign. The "fractured mind" quote posted earlier is also an indication of this. It is really quite logical that it would want to empower the Geth runtimes such that they do not have this weakness. That Legion stated it the way it did is unfortunate, but it was trying to convince organics that its goal was just.

[RZIBARA]

the whole thing was a failure

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Even if they become more individualistic, they still wouldn't be like Organics. They would however have more freedom, like Legion to become part of future mass effect adventures and become people that you can talk to. Either to trade with, pickup missions from, help, start a rivalry with, fight, whatever. I don't think Legion ever said he wanted to be an organic, and constantly points out and the advantages to being synthetic, and shows off his ability to perform high altitude atmospheric assault drops during the server mission.

Wanting to improve because you notice you got a problem affectign your survival, isn't nessesarily the same as trying to become organic.

 

Borderlands 2 absolutely reams this. 

[Iakus]

Legion mentions the Geth weakness of losing intelligence/strength/ability when apart in the default conversation in ME2, at the end of the option about Sovereign. The "fractured mind" quote posted earlier is also an indication of this. It is really quite logical that it would want to empower the Geth runtimes such that they do not have this weakness. That Legion stated it the way it did is unfortunate, but it was trying to convince organics that its goal was just.

 

So by that logic, humans must want to become krogan, because humans are so squishy and fragile in comparison.  We lose intelligence/strength/ability as we get old or injured, after all.

[Applepie_Svk]

Even if they become more individualistic, they still wouldn't be like Organics. They would however have more freedom, like Legion to become part of future mass effect adventures and become people that you can talk to. Either to trade with, pickup missions from, help, start a rivalry with, fight, whatever. I don't think Legion ever said he wanted to be an organic, and constantly points out and the advantages to being synthetic, and shows off his ability to perform high altitude atmospheric assault drops during the server mission.

Wanting to improve because you notice you got a problem affectign your survival, isn't nessesarily the same as trying to become organic.

 

That wasn´t the point, to be an organic - to become one (I should be clear, sorry for confussion), the point was that organics are each one individual, geths from the other hand are more like a great collective hive mind, whole dyson sphere was their goal - to be a whole and together in unity, not to be each one an individual. We could also say, that they were always one mind fractured into the billions of pieces, that´s why they required consensus or that´s why they were even more effective in squads.

[Obadiah]

So by that logic, humans must want to become krogan, because humans are so squishy and fragile in comparison. We lose intelligence/strength/ability as we get old or injured, after all.

How is that example even slightly comparable? Legion just watched the weakness I described used against its kind with disasterous results... almost annihalated by one enemy and its diminished collective intelligence causing it to ally with another.

Why would it not attempt to prevent that from happening in the future? Especially if an opportunity to improve its capabilities presents itself.

[shodiswe]

That wasn´t the point, to be an organic - to become one (I should be clear, sorry for confussion), the point was that organics are each one individual, geths from the other hand are more like a great collective hive mind, whole dyson sphere was their goal - to be a whole and together in unity, not to be each one an individual. We could also say, that they were always one mind fractured into the billions of pieces, that´s why they required consensus or that´s why they were even more effective in squads.

The destruction of the sphere clearly showed how dangerous that idea was, putting all your eggs in one basket. Centuries of work and billions of Geth killed. It clearly wasn't a safe future to persue.

[Iakus]

How is that example even slightly comparable? Legion just watched the weakness I described used against its kind with disasterous results... almost annihalated by one enemy and its diminished collective intelligence causing it to ally with another.

Why would it not attempt to prevent that from happening in the future? Especially if an opportunity to improve its capabilities presents itself.

 

Because all organics everywhere are losing to the Reapers.

 

How much more effective would everyone be if they were as tough as a krogan?  Krogan troops slowed the attack on Palaven.  Think of how much more effective the defense would have been if all the turians were as tough as they were?

 

If weakness is so bad, clearly it must be purged from everyone, everywhere.  No matter how much it might change you. 

[Barquiel]

I guess my biggest issue with the Rannoch arc is that its outcome in connection to the Catalyst conversation can potentially amount to an extremely cheap, dissatisfying gotcha. It comes off as a resolution to the big-picture issue at first, but it's inevitably doomed for a weak rug pulling.

 

Peace on Rannoch should not have been possible if the writers wanted us to accept that war between organics and synthetics is inevitable (it isn't a problem in my games because I sided with the geth. But as you said, the Catalyst conversation is even more frustrating if you managed to make peace on Rannoch). Now if the ending was designed to make the Catalyst's logic look fallible, then there would have been an option to call him out on it. But since we have to accept the Catalyst's "problem" that must have a "solution"...

[Obadiah]

Because all organics everywhere are losing to the Reapers.

How much more effective would everyone be if they were as tough as a krogan? Krogan troops slowed the attack on Palaven. Think of how much more effective the defense would have been if all the turians were as tough as they were?

If weakness is so bad, clearly it must be purged from everyone, everywhere. No matter how much it might change you.

Was there an analysis done somewhere that said everyone would be more effective if they were Krogan? Yeah sure, make us Krogan.

What's the counterargument? Diversity? Can that be quantified as a benefit? Does it negate the benefit of us all being Krogan? Does general opposition to the idea and infighting negate the benefit? Then don't do it.

Seems to me you have some sort of conviction to weakness that you aren't willing to articulate.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Peace on Rannoch should not have been possible if the writers wanted us to accept that war between organics and synthetics is inevitable (it isn't a problem in my games because I sided with the geth. But as you said, the Catalyst conversation is even more frustrating if you managed to make peace on Rannoch). Now if the ending was designed to make the Catalyst's logic look fallible, then there would have been an option to call him out on it. But since we have to accept the Catalyst's "problem" that must have a "solution"...

 

It should have come up in the ending since it is pretty relevant, even if to have the Catalyst just dismiss it. I think the whole thing is pretty reflective of how disconnected everything involving the Catalyst is from the rest of the game, as Shepard's past experiences dealing with Organics vs Synthetics is never brought up.

[Iakus]

Seems to me you have some sort of conviction to weakness that you aren't willing to articulate.

 

My conviction is to not having our identities defined by another.  Even by another of our species.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

So by that logic, humans must want to become krogan, because humans are so squishy and fragile in comparison.  We lose intelligence/strength/ability as we get old or injured, after all.

 

Yup! If there are ways to improve the condition of human life, they should definitely be pursued.

[DeinonSlayer]

Yup! If there are ways to improve the condition of human life, they should definitely be pursued.

I... AM... HROOOOGAAAAN?

[Chashan]

I... AM... HROOOOGAAAAN?

 

Like this?

 

Now it all makes sense.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I mean, I'm not sure what it means to "become krogan," but agree with the general idea of overcoming limitations.

 

 

Nobody cherishes old age or disability.

[Iakus]

 I mean, I'm not sure what it means to "become krogan," but agree with the general idea of overcoming limitations.

 

 

Nobody cherishes old age or disability.

 

And at what point do you stop being the person you were before?  At what point do yo stop being human?

 

If humans suddenly became a consensus because it was somehow "better" or "stronger" then are they still human?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

And at what point do you stop being the person you were before?  At what point do yo stop being human?

 

If humans suddenly became a consensus because it was somehow "better" or "stronger" then are they still human?

 

Ooh... this is some very deep stuff we're getting into! ^^

 

Well, I tend to think that humans are not static, but dynamic and ever-changing creatures. I used to be quite the athlete a few years ago, but have since let myself go, and now I am quite the weakling. I am not the same person I was before, truly, on a physical level -- I could identify myself as an athlete, but now I cannot. On a mental/intellectual level? Over the past couple years my personal and political beliefs have shifted quite a bit as well -- in some areas, radically. In that sense, I am definitely not the same person I was before: I have a different outlook now, and act differently because of it.

 

And as a race, I'd say we've changed over time from what we were. We live longer, for one thing, than our ancestors used to. We're smarter, too. Things that were once mere hypothesis among our scientists are now common-knowledge, such as the theory of evolution.

 

So I'd say that change -- physical or mental -- is just this natural phenomenon that comes with being human.

[Jorji Costava]

Ooh... this is some very deep stuff we're getting into! ^^

 

Well, I tend to think that humans are not static, but dynamic and ever-changing creatures. I used to be quite the athlete a few years ago, but have since let myself go, and now I am quite the weakling. I am not the same person I was before, truly, on a physical level -- I could identify myself as an athlete, but now I cannot. On a mental/intellectual level? Over the past couple years my personal and political beliefs have shifted quite a bit as well -- in some areas, radically. In that sense, I am definitely not the same person I was before: I have a different outlook now, and act differently because of it.

 

And as a race, I'd say we've changed over time from what we were. We live longer, for one thing, than our ancestors used to. We're smarter, too. Things that were once mere hypothesis among our scientists are now common-knowledge, such as the theory of evolution.

 

So I'd say that change -- physical or mental -- is just this natural phenomenon that comes with being human.

 

I can't speak for Iakus on this point, but I think he's trying to get at something a bit more abstract: It's a question of numerical, rather than qualitatively identity. During the course of my life, I undergo a lot of changes; I don't remain qualitatively the same, but I do remain numerically the same person throughout the duration of my life. For instance, when you undergo changes in your political views, those are genuine changes, but they don't amount to you ceasing to exist and then being replaced by someone very much like you but with different political views.

 

So I suppose that the question is, are the changes that something like synthesis brings about consistent with me remaining numerically the same person? To put it as simply as possible, does synthesis change people, or does it replace them? If it's the latter, then synthesis is arguably mass murder, which is what I think Iakus is trying to get at. I'm not saying that this is necessarily right, though; personally, I think the concept of synthesis is just too ill-defined for there to be any concrete answers to these questions.

[Obadiah]

It's an old philosophical question since the Ship of Theseus paradox.

The line the devs were drawing between huskification and Synthesis is in Mordin's speech in ME2: technology in Synthesis is supposed to augment us (as it does now), not overwhelm us. It seems fairly obvious to me that technology augmented us in the EC Synthesis epilogue.