1331 réponses à ce sujet

[Hadeedak]

Borderlands 2 absolutely reams this. 

Borderlands 2 absolutely reams everything. It's one of the games I love to watch played.

[DeinonSlayer]

Borderlands 2 absolutely reams this.

Now you've got me curious.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Now you've got me curious.

 

BL2 will seriously show you what 'broke' really means once you start getting into the meat of the skill building. Its wild thinking that someone could be a suicidal **** and solo a boss meant for 4 players at max level.

[SporkFu]

Borderlands 2 absolutely reams everything. It's one of the games I love to watch played.

It's even more fun to actually play it... except for the Hammerlock DLC. That killed it for me. 

[I Tsunayoshi I]

It's even more fun to actually play it... except for the Hammerlock DLC. That killed it for me. 

 

Yeah... Its bad and its mobs are the worst ever in the series.

[Hadeedak]

The boyfriend's talked me into trying once or twice... Funny as it is, I have a hard time focusing on all the shooty (okay, stabby, I rolled a Zero) bits, since most of the plot is bizarre hilarity. But I love listening in. And there's a lot of good jokes.

 

...I'm not sure Claptrap is everything an AI should be.... Or maybe he's exactly perfect. Hmm.

[SporkFu]

Yeah... Its bad and its mobs are the worst ever in the series.

I wanted to like it so much, but it's just... bleh. 

The boyfriend's talked me into trying once or twice... Funny as it is, I have a hard time focusing on all the shooty (okay, stabby, I rolled a Zero) bits, since most of the plot is bizarre hilarity. But I love listening in. And there's a lot of good jokes.

 

...I'm not sure Claptrap is everything an AI should be.... Or maybe he's exactly perfect. Hmm.

There is definitely a lot going on most of the time. As for Clap-trap I kinda wished I could pull out his eye anytime I wanted. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

I can't speak for Iakus on this point, but I think he's trying to get at something a bit more abstract: It's a question of numerical, rather than qualitatively identity. During the course of my life, I undergo a lot of changes; I don't remain qualitatively the same, but I do remain numerically the same person throughout the duration of my life. For instance, when you undergo changes in your political views, those are genuine changes, but they don't amount to you ceasing to exist and then being replaced by someone very much like you but with different political views.

 

So I suppose that the question is, are the changes that something like synthesis brings about consistent with me remaining numerically the same person? To put it as simply as possible, does synthesis change people, or does it replace them? If it's the latter, then synthesis is arguably mass murder, which is what I think Iakus is trying to get at. I'm not saying that this is necessarily right, though; personally, I think the concept of synthesis is just too ill-defined for there to be any concrete answers to these questions.

 

It's actually the geth upgrade in question here, not synthesis.

 

To that end, I think people look at the geth (and synthetics in general) through organic lens too much. While for us, the idea of radically changing others or one's self brings up all kinds of moral/ethical questions, it's not the same thing for Mass Effect synthetics. These "upgrades" are just their equivalent of evolution, as stated by EDI and others.

 

One thing Legion said back in ME2, that people seem to forget (or maybe ignore), is that organics need not apply their morality or ethics to synthetic life, because synthetics are fundamentally different and those differences should be properly accounted for.

[Hadeedak]

I WISH Mass Effect in general had gotten a bit more creative with the AI, or delved deeper into it, instead of just "LOL WE ARE UNKNOWABLE" and the quieter geth version, and then EDI, who pretty much seemed to be a human with a filter on her voice in ME2 (and 3).

 

I dunno, I guess I could have just done with more show and less tell for "AIs are terribly different from us!"

[Applepie_Svk]

It's actually the geth upgrade in question here, not synthesis.

 

To that end, I think people look at the geth (and synthetics in general) through organic lens too much. While for us, the idea of radically changing others or one's self brings up all kinds of moral/ethical questions, it's not the same thing for Mass Effect synthetics. These "upgrades" are just their equivalent of evolution, as stated by EDI and others.

 

One thing Legion said back in ME2, that people seem to forget (or maybe ignore), is that organics need not apply their morality or ethics to synthetic life, because synthetics are fundamentally different and those differences should be properly accounted for.

 

 

Well guys, embrace reaper upgrades it´s an evolution, Sovereign and Catalyst said it - it has to be true...

 

I don´t think that the evolution means to be changed into something "greater", it was something along lines - evolve - do it on you own.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Well guys, embrace reaper upgrades it´s an evolution, Sovereign and Catalyst said it - it has to be true...

 

I don´t think that the evolution means to be changed into something "greater", it was something along lines - evolve - do it on you own.

 

 

(Just thought I'd redirect you to the person you're actually arguing against). 

[Iakus]

It's actually the geth upgrade in question here, not synthesis.

 

To that end, I think people look at the geth (and synthetics in general) through organic lens too much. While for us, the idea of radically changing others or one's self brings up all kinds of moral/ethical questions, it's not the same thing for Mass Effect synthetics. These "upgrades" are just their equivalent of evolution, as stated by EDI and others.

 

One thing Legion said back in ME2, that people seem to forget (or maybe ignore), is that organics need not apply their morality or ethics to synthetic life, because synthetics are fundamentally different and those differences should be properly accounted for.

 

Except Legion expressly states in ME2 that the geth rejected using Reaper technology in the past.  Using others' methods blinds you to other paths.  The geth were determined to achieve their own destiny, not have it handed to them.

 

He even compliments Shepard if you choose to blow up the base, saying Shepard is "more like us than we thought"

 

Legion using Reaper code to change the geth is a complete 180 on this.  What he did wasn't evolution, it was a shortcut.  More so, it was done by Legion alone, without the consent of the consensus.  In a sense, what Legion did was almost a dry-run of Synthesis.  "Upgrading" an entire people without their knowledge or consent into something fundamentally different from their origin "for their own good"

[Iakus]

Ooh... this is some very deep stuff we're getting into! ^^

 

Well, I tend to think that humans are not static, but dynamic and ever-changing creatures. I used to be quite the athlete a few years ago, but have since let myself go, and now I am quite the weakling. I am not the same person I was before, truly, on a physical level -- I could identify myself as an athlete, but now I cannot. On a mental/intellectual level? Over the past couple years my personal and political beliefs have shifted quite a bit as well -- in some areas, radically. In that sense, I am definitely not the same person I was before: I have a different outlook now, and act differently because of it.

 

And as a race, I'd say we've changed over time from what we were. We live longer, for one thing, than our ancestors used to. We're smarter, too. Things that were once mere hypothesis among our scientists are now common-knowledge, such as the theory of evolution.

 

So I'd say that change -- physical or mental -- is just this natural phenomenon that comes with being human.

 

Yes, humans grow and change over the course of their lives.  But we are talking about changes far deeper than lifestyle changes or nutrition.  We are talking about altered thought patterns.  Not jsut the wisdom of experience but in mental wiring.  Changes in the DNA.  Not just changes in who we are, but what we are.  Both philosophical and scientific sense.

[Obadiah]

Seems to me your problem is not with the game but with how you WANT Legion to always behave, rather than accepting it as a being capable of making decisions you don't agree with.

[Iakus]

Seems to me your problem is not with the game but with how you WANT Legion to always behave, rather than accepting it as a being capable of making decisions you don't agree with.

 

If you mean my problem is I want Legion to act consistently, then yes.

[Obadiah]

If you mean my problem is I want Legion to act consistently, then yes.

Legion deciding to upgrade the Geth is not inconsistent with its behavior. It said point blank in ME2 that it does not have emotion or hold our values, and it had no real problem overwriting the Heretic Geth. Yet you keep arguing that it ought not to behave the way it does because YOU think its behavior is inconsistent. It kept the Reaper upgrades, decided they were a net benefit, and decided to share these with other Geth to protect them from annihalation from the Quarians.

Your rationale against its decision making is... well... nothing. You just keep intimating on some value that you hold that nowhere do Legion or the Geth ever agree to.

[shodiswe]

If you mean my problem is I want Legion to act consistently, then yes.

Legions problem with the inital offer from the Reapers was that the Reapers offered them a platform for them t oshare together, it was what they were trying to create. It was their goal, howver, accepting that would have imprisoned them in a Reaper dreadnaught hull, forever forced to serve the Catalyst.
The cost was all that they were and all that they could ever become, they would never be free again and they would never be allowed to evolve beyond that.

The Geth couldn't accept that deal. Therefor they prefered to keep building their own dyson Sphere.
After Billions of Geth were killed of in the Quarian attack ont he Dysonsphere they realsied that it was bad for their future survival. They had put almost all their eggs in one basket.

With their options for survival becomming few, they decided the reverse engineered reapercode was their best path forward. Evolution is dictated by a species ability to survive, those who posess the traits that benefit their survival survive.
Legion who had picked the reaper upgrades and code appart and created his own version of it, it was fragments and parts of the reaper code, was able to operate more effectively and survive where other Geth would have perished or failed.

The choice was obvious, Legion had the answer to their needs as a species. Legion kind of became the Father of the New Geth.

The Geth had never intended to stay the same for ever, the sphere was just another step on the way as it was described by Legion. It would present them with new possibilities. At the end of the Geth/Quarian war Legion and the other Geth knew what the options were. It was their only choice. It was their choice and it was the way they created it, on their terms.

[Iakus]

Legions problem with the inital offer from the Reapers was that the Reapers offered them a platform for them t oshare together, it was what they were trying to create. It was their goal, howver, accepting that would have imprisoned them in a Reaper dreadnaught hull, forever forced to serve the Catalyst.
The cost was all that they were and all that they could ever become, they would never be free again and they would never be allowed to evolve beyond that.
 

The Geth couldn't accept that deal. Therefor they prefered to keep building their own dyson Sphere.

Funny how Legion never mentioned any of this before.

 

After Billions of Geth were killed of in the Quarian attack ont he Dysonsphere they realsied that it was bad for their future survival. They had put almost all their eggs in one basket.

With their options for survival becomming few, they decided the reverse engineered reapercode was their best path forward. Evolution is dictated by a species ability to survive, those who posess the traits that benefit their survival survive.
Legion who had picked the reaper upgrades and code appart and created his own version of it, it was fragments and parts of the reaper code, was able to operate more effectively and survive where other Geth would have perished or failed.

The choice was obvious, Legion had the answer to their needs as a species. Legion kind of became the Father of the New Geth.

The Geth had never intended to stay the same for ever, the sphere was just another step on the way as it was described by Legion. It would present them with new possibilities. At the end of the Geth/Quarian war Legion and the other Geth knew what the options were. It was their only choice. It was their choice and it was the way they created it, on their terms.

The goal was to unite the "shattered mind" To become essentially a single being united in perspective and memories.  What Legion did was a mad sprint in the opposite direction.  Blinded to other possibilities

[shodiswe]

He does mention it, that's why the deal was so bad.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Because all organics everywhere are losing to the Reapers.

 

How much more effective would everyone be if they were as tough as a krogan?  Krogan troops slowed the attack on Palaven.  Think of how much more effective the defense would have been if all the turians were as tough as they were?

 

If weakness is so bad, clearly it must be purged from everyone, everywhere.  No matter how much it might change you. 

 

That is why synthesis was the solution. It changed everyone. Everything.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Now you've got me curious.

 

[Iakus]

He does mention it, that's why the deal was so bad.

 

He  never mentioned the geth would be enslaved.  He never mentioned the Catalyst at all (might have saved some trouble in ME3 otherwise)

 

Legion's reasons were "Geth build their own future"

[shodiswe]

What Legion tells you to begin with is that the Reaper offer took away their future, in essence, ther ability to choose for them selves, they would then be forced to forever serve the Reapers. That was something they could not accept.

He could have said it with more words to make it easier for everyone to understand. But it seems a lot of Mass Effect dialogue, especialy from Legion is cut very short and left for speculation.

It's easy to understand why they wouldn't be eager to become another Reaper and serve the whims of the Catalyst. Therefor they rejected it even if the platform offered was very similar to the sphere they were building. The sphere however left them free to choosse their own future later on. Same with the Reapercode, they would be free of the Reapers and could keep choosing their future. They would also be alive sicne the Quarians would have killed them without the upgrade, therefor they are a people thanks to Shepards tolerance in allowing them to keep existing and stopping the Quarian onslaught.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

BL2 will seriously show you what 'broke' really means once you start getting into the meat of the skill building. Its wild thinking that someone could be a suicidal **** and solo a boss meant for 4 players at max level.

 

There are only a few of them. Terramorphus, and the one at the end of the Pirates DLC, and stuff like that. Otherwise you can solo the basic game, even on true vault dweller level. At least Terramorphus you can leave the boss fight. Pirates you're trapped.

[shodiswe]

He  never mentioned the geth would be enslaved.  He never mentioned the Catalyst at all (might have saved some trouble in ME3 otherwise)
 
Legion's reasons were "Geth build their own future"

By turning them into a Reaper they would then forever be a Reaper serving the Reaper cause. That leaves no opening to building their own future. It ends with becomming a Reaper. Their future would have been given to them.(Reaperised)

Or do you think they were promised to fly off on their own ignoring the other Reapers, the cycle, the catalyst and everything else? I seriously doubt that was part of the deal.

Therefor it follows that the "Geth build their own future, and the deal wouldn't allow for that." The Reaper offer was a dead end. Possibly slightly better than absolute death.