1331 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

You were complaining that the 'bias' towards the geth is a problem in part because it's new in ME 3. It is more or less new, but I really don't see how that's a problem.

Good for you.

[von uber]

It's a problem if me3 is the best place to start the trilogy.

[Ruadh]

Dammit. This thread has added a couple more items to my 'Things that ****** me off about ME3' list.

[themikefest]

What's the difference?

 

 

 

Is this a gameplay question -- why can't the player do whatever he wants to regardless of previous choices? -- or a question about why the gameworld works the way it does? Or is it no question at all and you're just bothered by not being able to do whatever the hell you want?

One is a machine and the other is organic

 

Why are you so worried about me not agreeing that Tali and Legion should be available to get peace? Why can't we get peace with Xen and the Geth VI? Or maybe with Raan and Legion? Do you have a problem with me liking a different way to get peace without having those two present?

 

Or are you just posting because you find it amusing?

[KaiserShep]

Why are you so worried about me not agreeing that Tali and Legion should be available to get peace? Why can't we get peace with Xen and the Geth VI? Or maybe with Raan and Legion? Do you have a problem with me liking a different way to get peace without having those two present?

 

The idea of promoting peace seems totally incongruous with Xen's character. Her goal to subjugate the geth is pretty clear since ME2, and she never showed any signs of changing that stance. Problem is, the substitutes for Tali and Legion have such wildly different ideologies that being able to achieve peace would essentially devalue the whole lot of them. It's made even worse if you subtract Koris from the equation, because between Raan, Gerrel and Xen, there isn't a single thought in their heads that promotes any such idea of a peaceful coexistence that isn't total control.

[von uber]

I'm tempted to kill tali in my current play through to set up a vi/xen situation.
But I'd miss her during citadel. Choices, choices...

[shodiswe]

I'm tempted to kill tali in my current play through to set up a vi/xen situation.
But I'd miss her during citadel. Choices, choices...

I really don't think youget Xen at the final showdown, you get Auntie Raan. Xen only goes with you on the Dreadnaught mission. Probably to stake out the salvage.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

It's pretty tragic to such see that something as basic as fundamental to pretty much all stories in existence as a 'one side issue' is derided as a 'writing failure.'

 

One sided issues aren't basic or fundamental. They are almost always seen as writing failures. Universally. There's always two-sides or more sides to an issue. If there wasn't, there wouldn't be an issue.

[DeinonSlayer]

One sided issues aren't basic or fundamental. They are almost always seen as writing failures. Universally. There's always two-sides or more sides to an issue. If there wasn't, there wouldn't be an issue.

The best example I could think of for a one-sided issue on short notice is "darkspawn suck."

[Jorji Costava]

The best example I could think of for a one-sided issue on short notice is "darkspawn suck."

 

On the other hand, the darkspawn and the archdemon are largely just pretexts to bring other, more nuanced conflicts to the forefront. One could make the argument that the real conflicts of Dragon Age: Origins were the internal political struggles within Ferelden, and the struggles of the characters with their own demons (I always though of the Reapers themselves as serving the same sort of function that the Darkspawn do in DA, which is why I never had much interest in their motivations). William Faulkner had that famous saying, "The only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself," and I tend to think there is some truth in that.

 

The only example I can think of off the top of my head where you have totally one-sided conflict in which there is no underlying internal struggle at all would be the early seasons of Star Trek: The Next Generation. Early on, Gene Roddenberry had this rule that the characters couldn't come into conflict with each other, to reflect the idea that humanity had advanced beyond the point of having petty squabbles with each other. It didn't make for the best television, though.

 

EDIT: Corrected a spelling error

[AlexMBrennan]

Why can't we get peace with Xen and the Geth VI? Or maybe with Raan and Legion?

Because Tali is the only quarian who isn't clinically brain dead - it's not a matter of "peace", but of "do we sacrifice our entire species on a sucicidal attack which we know won't work", and when faced with that decision every last quarian decided that it's better to ineffectually shoot at geth and die.

[DeinonSlayer]

Because Tali is the only quarian who isn't clinically brain dead - it's not a matter of "peace", but of "do we sacrifice our entire species on a sucicidal attack which we know won't work", and when faced with that decision every last quarian decided that it's better to ineffectually shoot at geth and die.

Nice strawman, but no.

In the one outcome where the Quarians die, Shepard chooses not to inform them that 1) the upload was taking place, and 2) the Geth are willing to honor a ceasefire for the first time in their entire history. If you have the VI in Legion's place (a better representative of the Geth's historical behavior and the only model the Quarians have to go on for predicting them), the Quarians can only survive by destroying the Geth. In the peace outcome, Shepard informs them that circumstances have changed, and they stand down - they're more interested in survival than revenge.

Hell, IIRC the first thing you hear is Captain Kar'Danna asking "what's going on?" if you betray them. For all they'd know, another Reaper backup came online somewhere, in which case ceasing fire wouldn't spare them.

[Obadiah]

To your point that Shepard didn't inform the Quarians of Legion's upload - that shows that the Quarians will pull the trigger on the Geth if they think they will win every time. The only version in which they don't is when they realize they will lose. There is nothing in the Legion VI version of the resolution that says they Quarians only survive by destroying the Geth. The resolution in which the Quarians are destroyed describes them as never surrendering in the battle, thus they are destroyed.

[Sir DeLoria]

To your point that Shepard didn't inform the Quarians of Legion's upload - that shows that the Quarians will pull the trigger on the Geth if they think they will win every time.

To their knowledge, the Geth fleet was completely defenseless, to their knowledge they would be annihilated if they didn't attack, because the Geth would never show them mercy. Shepard is withholding crucial infomation from his allies for no bloody reason. He's indirectly responsible for the potential destruction of the fleet.

The only version in which they don't is when they realize they will lose.

A human military commander would most likely act the same way. Remember, the Quarians are at war with an unforgiving, relentless and brutal enemy.

There is nothing in the Legion VI version of the resolution that says they Quarians only survive by destroying the Geth. The resolution in which the Quarians are destroyed describes them as never surrendering in the battle, thus they are destroyed.

Actually yes, the VI is quite clear that it intends to destroy the Quarian fleet and it's clearly saying "either us or them". Even if they had surrendered after the battle broke out, I heavily doubt it would've made a difference. The Geth VI and the rest clearly don't give a damn, Legion is the only one with slight sympathy for the opposing side.

[Vortex13]

The best example I could think of for a one-sided issue on short notice is "darkspawn suck."

 

The Awakened, and the Messenger in particular, throw a nice shade of grey on that issue.

[Obadiah]

Shepard is withholding crucial infomation from his allies for no bloody reason. He's indirectly responsible for the potential destruction of the fleet.

Yeah, but doesn't the Quarian Admiral with Shepard do the same thing, withhold the information? From a game mechanic standpoint, how would having a Shepard conversation fail option to convince the Quarians change things? Wouldn't it just confirm that the Quarians always attack when they think they'll win?
 

A human military commander would most likely act the same way. Remember, the Quarians are at war with an unforgiving, relentless and brutal enemy.

People surrender when losing all the time, even to "butchers".
 

Actually yes, the VI is quite clear that it intends to destroy the Quarian fleet and it's clearly saying "either us or them". Even if they had surrendered after the battle broke out, I heavily doubt it would've made a difference. The Geth VI and the rest clearly don't give a damn, Legion is the only one with slight sympathy for the opposing side.

Don't the surviving Geth also say, "We regret the deaths of the Creators", indicating that they'd rather it not have happened?

[AlexMBrennan]

A human military commander would most likely act the same way. Remember, the Quarians are at war with an unforgiving, relentless and brutal enemy.

An enemy who made no move to pursue them for what, 300 years, after they stopped attacking? Oh god, the horror! 

[DeinonSlayer]

An enemy who made no move to pursue them for what, 300 years, after they stopped attacking? Oh god, the horror!

An enemy which exterminated 99% of their entire population in the course of a single year and occupied the planet they need to survive for no reason, killing anyone who came near it and ignoring all attempts to open diplomatic channels for centuries on end, then did nothing to dissociate themselves from the heretics for over two years following Sovereign's attack on the Citadel. An enemy which has allied itself with the Reapers, voluntarily, twice.

I've never understood this notion that the Geth should be lauded because they couldn't make up their minds on whether to kill off the last tattered, fleeing refugees fast enough to actually do so.

[von uber]

Never understood why the Geth kept hold of Rannoch. They don't need it to survive; they could just all have buggered off somewhere remote and done their thing.

[shodiswe]

The Quarians had the option to retreat before the upload, they choose to try and kill the Geth instead, the Quarians had the chance to retreat after the destruction of the Geth Dreadnaught gave them a window to escape while the Geth were in dissaray.

Before the Quarians began their attack on the Geth, Tali proposed that she and Legion(They had talked about it) could mediate a peace and sugested a meeting. The Quarian Admirals voted no.

In the Morning war the Quarians started killing Geth, when geth and Quarian Geth sympathisers protested the Quarian government had the Geth killed, any Quarian resisting was either arrested for treason or killed with their Geth friends.
Eventualy it reached to breakign point where the Geth took to arms and the Quarians suffered heavy losses quickly.
But the Quarian leaders never doubt that they were right, they would fight to the end, and eventualy try to retreat.

The Quarian leadership were completely incapable of contemplating a peace, or negotiations. They never tried and 300 years later during the Reaper invasion they voted no on a proposed peaceconference proposed by Tali and Legion.

Then they attacked the Geth with this new incredible superweapons that came out of nowhere, 300 years of nothing and suddenly they had a new weapon. And they just feelt they had to try it out because the annihilation of the Geth was somethign that seems to have consumed their species for the last 300 years. While the Geth have just let the Quarians be for the last 300 years because they didn't think they posed a serious danger to them.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Quarians are the main problem. I'm hardly surprised that they are so impopular by the other inhabitants of the galaxy these days.

The Quarians wern't content with just taking back their homeworld, they tried to kill of every Geth they could find in several different system. It was a war of genocide and ethnic cleasing. They never wanted to discuss peace since they preferd to kill Geth.

It's simply a fact that can be traced through the choices made by their admiralty.

If the people had those who doubted and didn't want the war, like the one at the crashsite that told you they(The civilians) never wanted the war, then they had no say about it. The war had never ended so the Admiralty only had to designate it a military mission to retake Rannoch, they were already at war since 300 years back, so there was no need to vote. The conclave had no say in military matters.

The Admiralty pointed at the Geth and the Quarians would die for them without question.

That's the story that the writers gave us, I can understand if people, especialy Quarian fans areupset about it and wants to headcannon and retcon what we were given.

But the thing is, that unless Shepard supported the Quarian cause ever since ME1, throughout ME2 and 3, then the Rannoch story arch makes the Quarians look like complete dicks.
Back in ME1 Shepard could tell Tali that what they did was wrong. In ME2 Shepard could say it again and Shepard could hold a speach against going to war at Tali's trial with lots of witnesses. Asking them to fight the Reapers rather than the Geth. Also they Quarians didn't have to send in their civilian ships and liveships into either war but they did.

But no matter what you did the Quarians would still go and attack the Geth. And they would strap cannons to their kids schoolbusses and send them into a warzone rather than sending them into a safe are in deepspace to wait it out. Ship that had no shields or armor for combat.

Bioware made it extremely hard to like the Quarians in ME3. Maybe it was easier to pick one path and have all choices lead to the same setting because it would otherwise create alternate missions which would requier extra voiceovers and maps and more time and a bigger budget, nevermind the technological requierments.

[DeinonSlayer]

Right. Try fitting fifty thousand ships through a mass relay in the timeframe we're talking about. The Codex says it takes days for them to pass through a single relay (putting one ship through the relay every single second would take just under fourteen hours, and they'd be exposed the entire time). If we're throwing that out the window now specifically so we can jump on them for not doing what was established as physically impossible, that is a failure in the writing. See also "Thanix missiles" and all the other crap they pulled out of their butts which sounded cool but violated established lore. At times, recent MEU material seems more like sanctioned fanfiction than anything which truly fits the universe.

I could take apart the rest of what you're saying by delving into the logistics of the fleet et al, but it's consistently bounced off of you in the past. Most of the rest is your headcanon, and I don't feel like picking it apart when I know you'll ignore everything I say.

[AlexMBrennan]

An enemy which exterminated 99% of their entire population

If your people are so stupid to not even consider disengaging until 99% of their population is dead does not make the enemy responsible for their deaths; by your logic, if the Germans had carried out the Nerobefehl you'd have tried Roosevelt for genocide which is obviously absurd. If your claims about the quarians needing Rannoch were true there wouldn't be any quarians left alive, so that obviously can't be true. 

 

Right. Try fitting fifty thousand ships through a mass relay in the timeframe we're talking about. The Codex says it takes days for them to pass through a single relay.

You only need to do that if you want to travel to a specific point; to get away from an enemy you simply need to hit the FTL button to become impossible to hit (weapon projectiles travel at sublight speed) and impossible to track. 

[shodiswe]

It's not retconed since it's been there since ME1, the Quarians decided to kill the Geth after they achived sentience. In ME2 we learned more and it continued in ME3.

The Quarian attack in ME3 is kind of the last straw for me... I'm sure the Reapers were thrilled to see them kill each other it certainly made the Reapers work easier. Rather than allying up against the Reapers. It just seemed incredibly stupid to me.

Anyway, it's still one of my favrite games, but there were several places where thought they could have added more variation. At the same time I can see that it would have been a lot of work.

One alternative would have been to create a scenario where the Geth and Quarians teamed up to fight off Reaper invaders.

Reapers board the Geth dreadnaught and you board to fight them off.

Reapers try to invade Geth Servers and you go there and fight them off.

Reapers attack the surface of archlite'>Rannoch and take of a former Geth installation and you go there to evict them.

You get a mission to save Quarian Civilians fleeing from a Reaper ground assault.

There could have been an alternative to a Geth Quarian war depending on your choieces in previous games.

Maybe there should have been an option to destroy the Alarei in ME2, to get rid of that dangerous and immoral research. Rather than saving it.(self-destruct)

[shodiswe]

Right. Try fitting fifty thousand ships through a mass relay in the timeframe we're talking about. The Codex says it takes days for them to pass through a single relay (putting one ship through the relay every single second would take just under fourteen hours, and they'd be exposed the entire time). If we're throwing that out the window now specifically so we can jump on them for not doing what was established as physically impossible, that is a failure in the writing. See also "Thanix missiles" and all the other crap they pulled out of their butts which sounded cool but violated established lore. At times, recent MEU material seems more like sanctioned fanfiction than anything which truly fits the universe.

I could take apart the rest of what your saying by delving into the logistics of the fleet et al, but it's consistently bounced off of you in the past. Most of the rest is your headcanon, and I don't feel like picking it apart when I know you'll ignore everything I say.

So.... How long did it take the Allied fleet to travel through the Arcturus/Earth relay?



Looks like thousands of warships jumping through the relay. (Sword fleet)

[DeinonSlayer]

If your people are so stupid to not even consider disengaging until 99% of their population is dead does not make the enemy responsible for their deaths; by your logic, if the Germans had carried out the Nerobefehl you'd have tried Roosevelt for genocide which is obviously absurd. If your claims about the quarians needing Rannoch were true there wouldn't be any quarians left alive, so that obviously can't be true.

ME3's codex entry for Rannoch establishes that they're physiologically dependent on their native plant life for their immune systems to function properly. According to Tali, it would take approximately six hundred years and extensive bioengineering (which 1: they don't have access to, and 2: is illegal under Council law) to adapt to a new planet. Try coding a human being with no dependency on an external source of vitamin C.

Your notion that they fought until 99% of them were dead directly conflicts canon ("The Quarians had neither the numbers nor the ability to stand against [the Geth]....less than 1% escaped the genocide" "cleanup crews - the geth never learned to take survivors") and is demographically impossible. You think they had toddlers and geriatrics throwing rocks at them or something? Consider that the Geth have, for centuries, ignored all attempts at communication and killed all organics on sight. If they started doing this during the war itself, that would mean any attempt by the Quarians to surrender would be ignored.

You only need to do that if you want to travel to a specific point; to get away from an enemy you simply need to hit the FTL button to become impossible to hit (weapon projectiles travel at sublight speed) and impossible to track.

Shepard doesn't recommend retreat via FTL. He suggests retreat via relay.