1331 réponses à ce sujet

[Mrs_Stick]

@ DeinonSlayer I think an issue is no matter how logical for the Quarians it is to have liveships in a war zone for the purposes you stated. I still keep thinking it is not logical at all. Part of my hard headedness right there nothing will get past no matter what is explained about that. Why did they not land a few ships on another world for the time being? Leaving room for the ships needed in the fight to have their supplies and be able to go where needed? It is to many questions with to many possible variations.

[DeinonSlayer]

@ DeinonSlayer I think an issue is no matter how logical for the Quarians it is to have liveships in a war zone for the purposes you stated. I still keep thinking it is not logical at all. Part of my hard headedness right there nothing will get past no matter what is explained about that. Why did they not land a few ships on another world for the time being? Leaving room for the ships needed in the fight to have their supplies and be able to go where needed? It is to many questions with to many possible variations.

Which world? Name a Turian colony which isn't under Reaper attack and isn't already overwhelmed by their own refugees. They couldn't take them in even if they wanted to (they don't - go to the Citadel before Priority: Rannoch and you see Tali asking for, and being denied, Turian aid). Rannoch is the world which gives their species the best shot at long-term survival. They can't offload everyone on some airless moon; if the fleet doesn't survive to come back for them (again, fighting Reapers this is a very real possibility), they're stuck there.

Even if they could pull some unclaimed dextro world out of their collective butts in the nick of time, they'd have needed 600 years and extensive bioengineering to remove their dependency on interaction with their native plant life. Check out the codex entry on Rannoch - its recovery is a matter of "physiological necessity" for the Quarians. Bear in mind that 600 year estimate came from before the galaxy was torn apart. Would they even have the technology to adapt themselves to a different world? They've already degenerated to the point where they need a clean room simply to reproduce (ME2 codex entry on Liveships).

[Mrs_Stick]

Which world? Name a Turian colony which isn't under Reaper attack and isn't already overwhelmed by their own refugees. They couldn't take them in even if they wanted to (they don't - go to the Citadel before Priority: Rannoch and you see Tali asking for, and being denied, Turian aid). Rannoch is the world which gives their species the best shot at long-term survival. They can't offload everyone on some airless moon; if the fleet doesn't survive to come back for them (again, fighting Reapers this is a very real possibility), they're stuck there.
Even if they could pull some unclaimed dextro world out of their collective butts in the nick of time, they'd have needed 600 years and extensive bioengineering to remove their dependency on interaction with their native plant life. Check out the codex entry on Rannoch - its recovery is a matter of "physiological necessity." That estimate came from before the galaxy was torn apart. Would they even have the technology to do it? They've already degenerated to the point where they need a clean room simply to reproduce (ME2 codex entry on Liveships).

Im not trying to argue =) I have been going back through the game and actually listening to the Quarians when I speak to them and reading the codex when I can. I can see everything you say is very logical and makes sense. However I will not claim that my brain works logically at all sense this is not the case. It is just mass of random thoughts and weird ideas that might work.

If the Quarians are about survival I wonder why then are all their people fighting for Rannoch. I understand the need to have all ships for the points you listed earlier. However if you want the survival of your spieces it might be wise to find a place for some in case the fleet doesn't make it. But with the Reapers that wouldn't matter anyway.

[SporkFu]

Im not trying to argue =) I have been going back through the game and actually listening to the Quarians when I speak to them and reading the codex when I can. I can see everything you say is very logical and makes sense. However I will not claim that my brain works logically at all sense this is not the case. It is just mass of random thoughts and weird ideas that might work.

If the Quarians are about survival I wonder why then are all their people fighting for Rannoch. I understand the need to have all ships for the points you listed earlier. However if you want the survival of your spieces it might be wise to find a place for some in case the fleet doesn't make it. But with the Reapers that wouldn't matter anyway.

It's entirely possible that the quarians began the war to with this in mind. When shep arrives on the scene, the war had been going on for seventeen days already, and Gerrel talked about precision strikes on geth systems. Don't need armed liveships for that, but once the reapers got involved, arming the liveships may have been a necessity.

 

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, I haven't read the whole thread. 

[von uber]

Except that trial proved that no man, woman, alien, or whatever could ever use the excuse of 'just following orders' as a means to avoid the blame for any wrongdoing they did as a result of following bad and immoral orders.

 

Except it was an incredibly selective trial, wasn't it - certainly didn't try both sides for bad or immoral orders; just the losers.

[DeinonSlayer]

Except it was an incredibly selective trial, wasn't it - certainly didn't try both sides for bad or immoral orders; just the losers.

Relevant:

"War is inevitable, and this time, it will be truly world wide. It will unravel everywhere and there will be no limit to its battlefields. The condemnations of Nuremberg will be one of the main reasons, which will cause this war to be a conflict whose horror will be unparalleled. These condemnations gave birth, in fact, to a new conception which makes the victor a hero and the vanquished an odious criminal. By this fact, each leader will wage war like a demon in order not to be the loser and become, consequently, a criminal. All the atrocities that can be imagined by man, will be committed during this next war, in order to prevent the enemy from acquiring victory.

What I have just said, I have repeated to the American representatives and I have warned them that all of the mothers of the entire world will one day curse America."

-Otto Skorzeny

Note that I do not condone anything the guilty at Nuremberg did.

[Jorji Costava]

Relevant:

"War is inevitable, and this time, it will be truly world wide. It will unravel everywhere and there will be no limit to its battlefields. The condemnations of Nuremberg will be one of the main reasons, which will cause this war to be a conflict whose horror will be unparalleled. These condemnations gave birth, in fact, to a new conception which makes the victor a hero and the vanquished an odious criminal. By this fact, each leader will wage war like a demon in order not to be the loser and become, consequently, a criminal. All the atrocities that can be imagined by man, will be committed during this next war, in order to prevent the enemy from acquiring victory.

What I have just said, I have repeated to the American representatives and I have warned them that all of the mothers of the entire world will one day curse America."

-Otto Skorzeny

Note that I do not condone anything the guilty at Nuremberg did.

 

Anyone see The Act of Killing? In that film Adi Zulkadry, a former death squad member from the Indonesian anti-communist purges of the 1960s, says, "War crimes are defined by the winners. I am a winner so I can make my own definition." Not that I agree with Mr. Zulkadry, but it seemed relevant. Also, I just wanted to name drop the film, which was the best of last year IMO.

[Obadiah]

The idea that the Quarians needed Rannoch because of the Reaper invasion does not make any sense. Any species living on a planet is far more succeptible to Reaper attack since the Reapers can simply devastate the planet's biosphere to kill everyone. At least the existing Quarian fleet is mobile and can beat feet at FTL.

Even if Rannoch was more defensible, what's the calculation? Lets expend resources and weaken our fleet in an attack that might damage the fleet so less of us can escape when the Reapers arrive? We'll set up a planetside industrial or agricultural infastructure not vulnerable to orbital bombardment? It doesn't make any sense.

The only valid reason the Quarians had for attacking is that there was real opportunity there for a win, and they'd get their planet back... in time to lose again to the Reapers.

[Iakus]

The idea that the Quarians needed Rannoch because of the Reaper invasion does not make any sense. Any species living on a planet is far more succeptible to Reaper attack since the Reapers can simply devastate the planet's biosphere to kill everyone. At least the existing Quarian fleet is mobile and can beat feet at FTL.
 

 

Not if you have to bring your liveships into battle with you.

 

Not if your own family and loved ones are on the ship with you.

 

The quarians never had the warships to be a great power.  They simply have more ships than anyone else.  And some of those ships are centuries old and not up to the rigors of warfare.

 

As Joker put it, strapping guns to your schoolbuses is not a good idea.

[DeinonSlayer]

@Obadiah
I'd advise reading my post on the last page. Safeguarding their civilians isn't their only concern; it's also a matter of freeing up their fleet for the Reaper war effort. Keeping millions of people alive in space places restrictions on them which prevents them from doing the job they need to be doing, and running is not a viable option when the Reapers can simply blockade the relay of whichever system their fleet gets caught in and attrit them down to nothing (Vigil).

Again, the external infrastructure they depend on to survive in space (ME1) is being actively destroyed by the Reapers (ME3), and even before the invasion, their fleet had an estimated eighty years left given the rate at which ships wore out versus being replaced (Ascension). The Reapers spend centuries scouring the galaxy in each cycle (Vigil). Hiding in space gives them next to no chance of survival and prevents them from committing those same ships to the war effort. Offloading their civilians gives them a slim chance of survival and frees up the fleet to aid the Reaper war effort. They made the best of a terrible situation.

I suppose they could have sped things up by simply spacing their civilians and devoted their newly-emptied cargo holds to the Reaper war effort, but that seems slightly counterproductive to the survival of the species.

[Obadiah]

@DeinonSlayer
The Quarians attacked with their entire fleet. They're already risking all of their resources in an attack they might not have won, and wouldn't without Shepard's intervention. This strategy you seem to think is a good idea would have gotten them all killed, indicating that it was NOT a good idea, and they would have been better off not attacking.

I realized you've rationalized the attack as a good idea, but on this point you're just fighting the narrative to support one side.

[SporkFu]

@DeinonSlayer
The Quarians attacked with their entire fleet. They're already risking all of their resources in an attack they might not have won, and wouldn't without Shepard's intervention. This strategy you seem to think is a good idea would have gotten them all killed, indicating that it was NOT a good idea, and they would have been better off not attacking.

I realized you've rationalized the attack as a good idea, but on this point you're just fighting the narrative to support one side.

Except that when they began their attack, the reapers hadn't gotten involved yet. It was the reaper upgrades that turned the tide in the geths' favor. 

[Obadiah]

...and? The Quarians thought the overwhelming Reaper AI that was attacking everywhere else wouldn't side with the Geth AI, a faction of which sided with the Reapers 2 years previous?

Meanwhile, if the Quarians had succeeded they would have destroyed a potential ally, the Geth, in the war against the Reapers.

[SporkFu]

...and? The Quarians thought the overwhelming Reaper AI that was attacking everywhere else wouldn't side with the Geth AI, a faction of which sided with the Reapers 2 years previous?

Maybe. There's no guarantee of that until it happens. What if the geth had decided the dangers of accepting reaper aid weren't worth it? Or the reapers could have just as easily chosen wiping both sides out at the same time, or letting them settle it between themselves first and mopping up the remainder afterwards.

 

Or it could be as simple as the quarians feeling they had a chance to wipe out the geth before the reapers got involved.

[ImaginaryMatter]

@DeinonSlayer
The Quarians attacked with their entire fleet. They're already risking all of their resources in an attack they might not have won, and wouldn't without Shepard's intervention. This strategy you seem to think is a good idea would have gotten them all killed, indicating that it was NOT a good idea, and they would have been better off not attacking.

I realized you've rationalized the attack as a good idea, but on this point you're just fighting the narrative to support one side.

 

They need to contribute the entire fleet. The military ships can only last so long without the hive ships.

 

The thing is there is no good options for the Quarians. They can pal around in space for a few years at best. As soon as the Reapers find them though they are done; they are isolated to the system they are currently in due to the amount of time it takes to traverse a relay and the fleet isn't self sustaining, they have a few weeks as soon as they jump randomly into space to avoid the Relays. With Rannoch at least they can contribute their military ships without having to defend the live ships which are basically a collective liability since they're big, lightly armored, and contain large portions of an endangered species.

 

The Quarians had a massive advantage with whatever Xen came up with. It was a gamble, yes, but one that was well into their favor. Without the assault they would have died for sure, at least Rannoch offered a slim chance.

[Obadiah]

...or they could have reached out to a Council faction and said hey, we can contribute our fleet if you can help us secure our civilians.

[ImaginaryMatter]

...or they could have reached out to a Council faction and said hey, we can contribute our fleet if you can help us secure our civilians.

 

I think Deinon has already addressed that, the Turians said no.

[Obadiah]

That's interesting. Do you haved a conversation reference?

If true, then ANYONE else for help.

[DeinonSlayer]

@DeinonSlayer
The Quarians attacked with their entire fleet. They're already risking all of their resources in an attack they might not have won, and wouldn't without Shepard's intervention. This strategy you seem to think is a good idea would have gotten them all killed, indicating that it was NOT a good idea, and they would have been better off not attacking.

Meta knowledge. I guess they should have sacrificed a goat and read the entrails to determine that the Geth would get code upgrades from the reapers which the heretics never had? We should never have fought the Collectors, either - they're aligned with the Reapers, clearly they'd have something up their sleeve guaranteeing their victory.

The Quarians had no way of anticipating this. It was a risk to the species, yes, but less so than facing the Reapers in space.
 

I realized you've rationalized the attack as a good idea, but on this point you're just fighting the narrative to support one side.

That's rich coming from the guy who rationalized a rifle in the hands of every Quarian in the Morning War solely to justify the act of killing them and consistently shrugs off every item of the lore contradicting it.

I expect you have a specific alternative plan they could have followed, making their ships flexibly available without dragging their entire civilian populace into the battle for Earth.
 

...and? The Quarians thought the overwhelming Reaper AI that was attacking everywhere else wouldn't side with the Geth AI, a faction of which sided with the Reapers 2 years previous?

Meanwhile, if the Quarians had succeeded they would have destroyed a potential ally, the Geth, in the war against the Reapers.

Willing to go crying to the Reapers at the drop of a hat? Such a trustworthy ally! Gee, why don't they leave all of their noncombatants under their supervision?

The Quarians are an ally. The Geth have only just decided not to kill every single organic that crosses their path, well... never, actually. Up until the second war for Rannoch that was policy for them with the exception of a single mobile platform which never attempted outreach to the Council, the Migrant Fleet etc. during its two years outside the veil and severed communication again shortly after returning. I would only call them an ally after Rannoch, and I find the conditions for their partnership (Reaper code) difficult to swallow.
 

That's interesting. Do you haved a conversation reference?

If true, then ANYONE else for help.

Tali on the Presidium between the dreadnought mission and Priority: Rannoch. Even if Shepard sides with her over the Turian rep she's arguing with, the Turian says they can't help.

The Turians are the only species with their compatibility. If they can't help them, who can?

[grey_wind]

So what if he did? It's of course possible that he was simply wrong about that, right? Even in the sections he himself wrote we see the consensus failing. They had to change in some direction. The massive consensus was one possibility, but ME3 shows just how dangerous such a situation is (the consensus gets blown up and the geth are gone). When Legion is describing the Reaper code to Shepard, it's the massive upgrade in processing potential, and the way that the code seems "alive", that he relates to Shepard as being beautiful. Somewhere along the way the idea of runtimes being permanently networked in a mobile platform was introduced, but even then we know the geth can either let their runtimes leave their platform or duplicate their runtimes to download into other networks.

Just because the consensus had weaknesses doesn't mean the Geth had to alter the nature of their very existence at its most fundamental level. Individuality also has its shortcomings, especially in comparison to consensus.

 

It's like saying that because the organic races' own individuality this cycle nearly cost them the war when they refused to prepare for the Reaper invasion and actually fought each other for a good portion of the conflict instead of uniting immediately, that they should then all be transformed into something "better" because individuality has its failings. And then we reach controversial nonsense like Synthesis.

[DeinonSlayer]

Also, re: running, how long do you think they could reasonably keep that up? Need to stop to distribute food daily, need to stop to find gas giants to mine for He3 fuel (factor in the time to deploy and pack up the infrastructure for that, and again to distribute it to the fleet), need to stop to discharge drive cores, to say nothing of mechanical breakdown - all without any external support. If one or more Reapers show up in the system, they can't exactly pick up and go in the time it takes for the Reapers to pick a target and shoot. There are any of a hundred ways to get caught with your pants down, and if you lose one liveship (or the fuel extractors, or...) you're screwed.

[Jukaga]

If the Geth survive the Rannoch War, Shepard picks the Destroy option, and then the Geth somehow manage to survive that blast, how do they judge organics then?

 

Assuming they survive, how would they know it was a known consequence of activating the Crucible? It's not like the Reaper king was broadcasting the big reveal for all to see. Only Shepard knows this. I bet she isn't talking after rescue and recovery.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Except that trial proved that no man, woman, alien, or whatever could ever use the excuse of 'just following orders' as a means to avoid the blame for any wrongdoing they did as a result of following bad and immoral orders.

 

And by your definition the entire geth race should be put down for genocide for willingly exterminating over 99% of the Quarian race 300 years earlier.

[CronoDragoon]

Just because the consensus had weaknesses doesn't mean the Geth had to alter the nature of their very existence at its most fundamental level.

 

No, they chose that.

 

Individuality also has its shortcomings, especially in comparison to consensus.

 

No, the consensus has its shortcomings, especially in comparison to individuality. No shortcoming matches the problem of the destruction of a single structure wiping out your entire race. If the geth truly want to all join into a super-structure, then I'm not going to stop them. But when some anti-synthetic nutjob blows it up, they won't be around to hear me say "I told you so." It's a short-sighted goal whether you consider it from Legion or Chris's point of view. It's also not alien at all as some may claim: the whole "join into one mind" trope is ground thoroughly plowed in at the very least the video game/anime story spectrum, with perhaps the most notable example being Evangelion.

 

It's like saying that because the organic races' own individuality this cycle nearly cost them the war when they refused to prepare for the Reaper invasion and actually fought each other for a good portion of the conflict instead of uniting immediately, that they should then all be transformed into something "better" because individuality has its failings. And then we reach controversial nonsense like Synthesis.

 

Individuality had nothing to do with this cycle's inability (or near inability) to win the war. The game, if anything, supports the opposite conclusion, considering Javik's analysis of why his cycle lost, and what he identifies as this cycle's only hope. But even a united galaxy of diverse races was going to be screwed against the might of the Reapers without the Crucible. Synthesis has nothing to do with individuality, either.

 

But all of this misses one of the central points here, which is that the geth chose to evolve into what they did. The geth as constructed in Mass Effect 2 were unhappy with themselves, that much is clear. The super-consensus was one possibility, but when Legion encounters the Reaper code, he sees another path for the geth to evolve.

 

This brings us back to the question of why Legion would be willing to use Reaper code to achieve evolution but not a Reaper body to achieve the super-consensus. In other words, is it still the case that the geth want to forge their own future, no matter what?

 

To which I respond: That entire line of thinking was bogus to begin with. I give it as much weight as the argument that the galaxy is not truly free unless we destroy the relays. It's nonsense and does not represent how technology and invention have been utilized in our prior history. Now, there may be practical concerns about whether using the code will cause the Reapers to actually corrupt the geth further instead of fortify them. Those concerns are real. But that doesn't sound like the reasoning Legion divulges behind the geth's decision to reject Reaperization. They did it out of principle.

[Iakus]

 

No, the consensus has its shortcomings, especially in comparison to individuality. No shortcoming matches the problem of the destruction of a single structure wiping out your entire race. If the geth truly want to all join into a super-structure, then I'm not going to stop them. But when some anti-synthetic nutjob blows it up, they won't be around to hear me say "I told you so." It's a short-sighted goal whether you consider it from Legion or Chris's point of view. It's also not alien at all as some may claim: the whole "join into one mind" trope is ground thoroughly plowed in at the very least the video game/anime story spectrum, with perhaps the most notable example being Evangelion.

 

The drell would like a word with you