1331 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryriena]

Except it was an incredibly selective trial, wasn't it - certainly didn't try both sides for bad or immoral orders; just the losers.

Actually, we had a few Americans that were tired in that trial. They stole from families, I believe during the war can't remember the name. They tried Japan and Germany for those immoral acts on soldiers and civilians. The only thing, I found morally questionable the allied forces did was dropping the atom bomb on Hiroshima. This killed 90% of the cities population within seconds and later on killed 800k more from the radiation poison they received from the blast.

[CronoDragoon]

The drell would like a word with you 

 

Since you couldn't be bothered to make an argument I'll guess you were referring to what happened on their homeworld. In response I'll point you to this passage: "In the following ten years, the hanar would transport a total of 375,000 drell to the hanar homeworld, Kahje. The remaining billions left on Rakhana would perish on their dying planet, warring against each other for diminishing resources. The drell now thrive co-existing with the hanar and have been a part of the galactic civilization for roughly two centuries."

 

Which is something that could only have been achieved because the race consisted of individuals that did not all die out in one incident of industrial expansion.

[Bob from Accounting]

You're making up nonsense.

 

The geth were 'unhappy with themselves,'? Because they had a goal?

[CronoDragoon]

You're making up nonsense.

 

The geth were 'unhappy with themselves,'? Because they had a goal?

 

Because they considered themselves a shattered mind and were seeking unification. If you'd like, I'll rephrase to say they were discontent with the current structure of their race.

[Bob from Accounting]

They were seeking progress. There's no indication they were ever 'unhappy' with their state, and certainly not because they wanted to improve.

[CronoDragoon]

They were seeking progress. There's no indication they were ever 'unhappy' with their state, and certainly not because they wanted to improve.

 

Considering your race a "shattered mind" means you're happy? Okay.

[Bob from Accounting]

And humans are currently shackled to Earth. Boy, that sounds tragic. Does that means we're miserable because our current technology is limited? No.

 

It's not a question of being 'happy' or 'unhappy.'

[CronoDragoon]

And humans are currently shackled to Earth. Boy, that sounds tragic. Does that means we're miserable because our current technology is limited? No.

 

Actually, if all of humanity had a conference, and announced unanimously that they considered themselves shackled to Earth and expressed a desire to leave, then that does mean they are unhappy with their situation.

 

This was, of course, a false equivalence on your part, but it's funny that it fails even on your terms.

[Bob from Accounting]

Do you even know what 'unhappy' means? 

 

Humans pretty much do unanmously agree that it would be a good thing for technology, or at least some technologies, to improve. Cleaner power, for example. More fuel efficient cars. Faster computers. We all agree those are good things. We all have a desire for better such technology. The idea that such a situation makes us 'unhappy' is absurd.

[DeinonSlayer]

Humans pretty much do unanmously agree that it would be a good thing for technology, or at least some technologies, to improve. Cleaner power, for example. More fuel efficient cars. Faster computers. We all agree those are good things. We all have a desire for better such technology.

Ehh... that's questionable.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

...and? The Quarians thought the overwhelming Reaper AI that was attacking everywhere else wouldn't side with the Geth AI, a faction of which sided with the Reapers 2 years previous?

Meanwhile, if the Quarians had succeeded they would have destroyed a potential ally, the Geth, in the war against the Reapers.

 

Correction. The Heretics aligned with the Reapers while the bulk of the Geth refused to support them.

 

And by your definition the entire geth race should be put down for genocide for willingly exterminating over 99% of the Quarian race 300 years earlier.

 

No, but since you mentioned it, the leadership of the Quarians in the Morning War would certainly be sent to the noose. I'd argue about considering the same for Xen and Gerrel as well considering their primary reason for the attack was 'We have a new toy and wanna use it."

[grey_wind]

 

 

No, they chose that.

Without giving any reasoning as to why it's better from their point of view beyond the writers telling us that "more like us = true intelligence!".

 

No, the consensus has its shortcomings, especially in comparison to individuality. No shortcoming matches the problem of the destruction of a single structure wiping out your entire race. If the geth truly want to all join into a super-structure, then I'm not going to stop them. But when some anti-synthetic nutjob blows it up, they won't be around to hear me say "I told you so." It's a short-sighted goal whether you consider it from Legion or Chris's point of view. It's also not alien at all as some may claim: the whole "join into one mind" trope is ground thoroughly plowed in at the very least the video game/anime story spectrum, with perhaps the most notable example being Evangelion.

Let's thank ME3 for that. The Geth, as described in ME2, should have had backup copies of all those programs that were going into the Dyson Sphere. Restoring themselves from backups is their entire schtick. There is literally no reason why they didn't beyond it being a convenient excuse to give them "true intelligence" through Reaper upgrades.

 

Individuality had nothing to do with this cycle's inability (or near inability) to win the war. The game, if anything, supports the opposite conclusion, considering Javik's analysis of why his cycle lost, and what he identifies as this cycle's only hope. But even a united galaxy of diverse races was going to be screwed against the might of the Reapers without the Crucible. Synthesis has nothing to do with individuality, either.

My point was that individuality was a big reason this cycle also kept screwing itself over. Forget whether or not we can defeat the Reapers conventionally. TIM, Wreav, Gerrel, etc are all examples of individuals acting out of self interest and nearly sabotaging the war effort because of it. And because we nearly lost thanks to these few nutjobs, following the same line of reasoning as you as to why the Geth should be individuals, we're all better off becoming a hivemeind like Synthesis implies.

 

To which I respond: That entire line of thinking was bogus to begin with. I give it as much weight as the argument that the galaxy is not truly free unless we destroy the relays. It's nonsense and does not represent how technology and invention have been utilized in our prior history. Now, there may be practical concerns about whether using the code will cause the Reapers to actually corrupt the geth further instead of fortify them. Those concerns are real. But that doesn't sound like the reasoning Legion divulges behind the geth's decision to reject Reaperization. They did it out of principle.

Just because that line of reasoning is bogus (to some) doesn't justify having the character do a complete 180 and not even addressing the change of his stance on the issue. The reason people are complaining is because it's poor writing. If Thane and Samara had suddenly dropped their controversial moral philosophies for something more conventional without any explanation whatsoever, people would complain because it wouldn't be justified. The Geth's original stance had both good and bad points. If they were going to change it, then they should have actually explained why the Geth think differently this time.

[DeinonSlayer]

Correction. The Heretics aligned with the Reapers while the bulk of the Geth refused to support them.

They also made no effort to stop them or even dissociate themselves from them for the next two years.
 

No, but since you mentioned it, the leadership of the Quarians in the Morning War would certainly be sent to the noose.

Why? Because they tried to enforce Council law by decommissioning malfunctioning machines?

Please note that I agree (in hindsight) that they were wrong to try to shut down the Geth - my canon Shepard says as such in ME3. I do, however, find it hypocritical to condemn them for misunderstanding what they were dealing with, yet give the Geth a free pass for committing genocide because they didn't understand what they were doing (if that's even the case - the consensus mission suggests otherwise).

Reminds me of this, got PM'd to me a while back:

 

I'd argue about considering the same for Xen and Gerrel as well considering their primary reason for the attack was 'We have a new toy and wanna use it."

They acted on the information at hand; I can't fault them for that. If Gerrel pressed the attack after being informed of the upload and the offer for peace, though? My Shepard would want to tie the noose himself.

EDIT: Odd, trying to frame these debates in a "my Shepard" this, "your Shepard" that, kind of way...

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Correction. The Heretics aligned with the Reapers while the bulk of the Geth refused to support them.

 

 

No, but since you mentioned it, the leadership of the Quarians in the Morning War would certainly be sent to the noose. I'd argue about considering the same for Xen and Gerrel as well considering their primary reason for the attack was 'We have a new toy and wanna use it."

 

And why are the geth innocent victims? When was enough enough 300 years earlier? When they had wiped out the race? Leaving a only a few million alive is still genocide kid, even if they "let" them escape. They were still guilty of extermination of innocent men, women, children, babies, and old people, and even those who supported them. 

 

The difference between the Quarians and the Geth is that the Quarians had a leadership. The Geth do not. The Geth have a consensus where they all agreed to exterminate the Quarians on Rannoch. When some escaped they had to reach another consensus "should we exterminate the Quarians in space who left?" They didn't say "no," they didn't say "yes." They didn't reach any kind of agreement among themselves. That's why there was never any peace. The consensus isn't a democracy.

[CronoDragoon]

Without giving any reasoning as to why it's better from their point of view beyond the writers telling us that "more like us = true intelligence!".

 
Well, in the case of Rannoch, it's not just a question of Legion wanting it more for its own right, but also that it's necessary to prevent being controlled by the Reapers. But you're right that there's no explicit weighing of pros and cons.
 

Let's thank ME3 for that. The Geth, as described in ME2, should have had backup copies of all those programs that were going into the Dyson Sphere. Restoring themselves from backups is their entire schtick. There is literally no reason why they didn't beyond it being a convenient excuse to give them "true intelligence" through Reaper upgrades.

 

True, they could have backups.

 

My point was that individuality was a big reason this cycle also kept screwing itself over. Forget whether or not we can defeat the Reapers conventionally. TIM, Wreav, Gerrel, etc are all examples of individuals acting out of self interest and nearly sabotaging the war effort because of it. And because we nearly lost thanks to these few nutjobs, following the same line of reasoning as you as to why the Geth should be individuals, we're all better off becoming a hivemeind like Synthesis implies.

 
Synthesis implies no such thing. TIM was indoctrinated. I'll weigh you Wreav and Gerrel against Shepard anyday. The entire series is built around his status as an exceptional individual that can get things done others can't, whether that be peace or victory.
 

Just because that line of reasoning is bogus (to some) doesn't justify having the character do a complete 180 and not even addressing the change of his stance on the issue. The reason people are complaining is because it's poor writing. If Thane and Samara had suddenly dropped their controversial moral philosophies for something more conventional without any explanation whatsoever, people would complain because it wouldn't be justified. The Geth's original stance had both good and bad points. If they were going to change it, then they should have actually explained why the Geth think differently this time.

I'll agree with that.

[DeinonSlayer]

The image I posted above was the OP of the linked Reddit thread (and unarguably an oversimplification). A far, far better post came from almost immediately below:
 

The Rannoch arc in ME3 was atrocious for many reasons, but if I were to put on my literary snob hat to complain; I would probably say that it "lacked proper resolution to the conflicts leading up to it". The question of who to support in a random space battle answers none of the issues relating to the Quarian political situations leading up to the Morning War, the nature of Geth understanding of their creators' existence and right to life preceding their freedom, the Quarians obeying Council laws at the time, or the Geth's actions after they had been isolated.

The Quarians' and Geth's ignorance of each other existence should have been the primary focus of the arc, not action schlock.

After the Geth server mission, what do we get when we talk to the admirals? A bunch of technobabble bullshit in a pretty light show about the Reaper Code makes the Geth "alive" or whatever. Not the Admirals addressing potentially the potentially revisionist history of events that they have told the Council over the years. Not an attempt to defend their actions under the bounds of the law at the time. All we get is more "Are teh Geth ALIVE!!!???!?!?!??!" questions that would make Asimov roll his eyes over how played out it is.

What is our other side plot? Admiral Koris is missing. This mission is completely useless. It should have been some effort to show the damage the Geth have inflicted on the Quarians during the war and after their exile; with the Geth's envoy trying to defend it somehow.

In the end, peace between the Geth and the Quarians should have been the result of how you, the player, officiated these arguments and back-and-forth discussions between the Geth's envoy and the Quarian admirals. Not if 2 random characters were still alive and if you did 2 side missions (though, that obviously should help your case).

TL;DR, you hit the nail on the head. Overcoming ignorance about each other should have been the theme of the mission, not painting the Geth as the victims.

 

I'd almost consider editing the above into the original post of this thread...

[Deathsaurer]

 

We should never have fought the Collectors, either - they're aligned with the Reapers, clearly they'd have something up their sleeve guaranteeing their victory.

Realistically they should have. Like I note they could have just destroyed the Normandy instead of boarding it and that would have been the end of that. The base was idiotically designed for the sake of the plot. Let's not even get into questions like what didn't a few Reapers park at the galactic core instead of dark space.

[CronoDragoon]

@Deinon

 

That's a bit of a simplification of the arc. Tali isn't a "random character" still alive, she's the symbol for quarian acceptance of the geth. Legion's characterization dealt more with organics as a whole, but that's entirely appropriate when the geth's hangup is understanding organic thought process in general, not just the quarians in specific.

 

Or, to put it another way, let's say you never activate Legion in ME2. No interaction with Tali or Shepard. Who in their right mind is expecting peace in ME3 in the first place?

 

But I do like the alternate ideas for missions he plots out.

[Obadiah]

...
Tali on the Presidium between the dreadnought mission and Priority: Rannoch. Even if Shepard sides with her over the Turian rep she's arguing with, the Turian says they can't help.

The Turians are the only species with their compatibility. If they can't help them, who can?

You have got to be kidding. This conversation is about the Quarians wanting supplies for their war with the Geth, not looking for a place to secure their civilians
Tali: There has to be some way for us to get more medical supplies.
Turian: I told you already, we have nothing to spare.
Tali: We're willing to pay.
Turan: It's not about payment. Between the war on Palaven and the coup attempt here, supplies are short.
Tali: If my people don't get more anti-biotics and medigel, thousands of us will die.
Turian: Then maybe you picked a bad time to start a war with the Geth.

Support Tali:
Turian: We don't have enough medi-gel for our own needs. I'm sorry.

[DeinonSlayer]

You have got to be kidding. This conversation is about the Quarians wanting supplies for their war with the Geth, not looking for a place to secure their civilians
Tali: There has to be some way for us to get more medical supplies.
Turian: I told you already, we have nothing to spare.
Tali: We're willing to pay.
Turan: It's not about payment. Between the war on Palaven and the coup attempt here, supplies are short.
Tali: If my people don't get more anti-biotics and medigel, thousands of us will die.
Turian: Then maybe you picked a bad time to start a war with the Geth.

Support Tali:
Turian: We don't have enough medi-gel for our own needs. I'm sorry.

The point being, they don't have the resources to provide material support even if they wanted to. You think they'll be able to take in millions of refugees with finicky diets on top of their own refugee crisis? News announcements tell us the Citadel itself is facing a food shortage, and we're well aware by now of how Quarians are regarded in Citadel space - the clerk she deals with later wouldn't even call a doctor for her when she had been shot.

[Obadiah]

It means the Turians don't have the material to provide support for a war with the Geth, not that they couldn't find a place for the Quarians to house their non-combat civilians so the Quarians could better allocate resources and assets to fight the Reapers.

[DeinonSlayer]

It means the Turians don't have the material to provide support for a war with the Geth, not that they couldn't find a place for the Quarians to house their non-combat civilians so the Quarians could better allocate resources and assets to fight the Reapers.

He says they don't have the material, period. It'd take a lot more than what she's asking for to keep millions of Quarian noncombatants alive on one of their planets. And even if a world existed which could take them in (no evidence one exists), if they offloaded there, guess who'd be the first to go without once supplies start running short?

[Obadiah]

First, the conversation is about medical supplies.

Second, the Quarians would be starting from scratch IF they succeeded and took Rannoch. They'd be in a similar position in some other location, but in Turian jurisdiction, the Turians would be nearby to lend support, if not material then at least logistical. And the Quarians could do to them same. This conversation is not evidence the Quarians should have attacked Rannoch, it is the opposite.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The point being, they don't have the resources to provide material support even if they wanted to. You think they'll be able to take in millions of refugees with finicky diets on top of their own refugee crisis? News announcements tell us the Citadel itself is facing a food shortage, and we're well aware by now of how Quarians are regarded in Citadel space - the clerk she deals with later wouldn't even call a doctor for her when she had been shot.

Not if ME3 is a good place to start. 

[DeinonSlayer]

First, the conversation is about medical supplies.

Second, the Quarians would be starting from scratch IF they succeeded and took Rannoch. They'd be in a similar position in some other location, but in Turian jurisdiction, the Turians would be nearby to lend support, if not material then at least logistical. And the Quarians could do to them same. This conversation is not evidence the Quarians should have attacked Rannoch, it is the opposite.

By all appearances, the Turians would be drawing on the Quarians' resources, not the other way around. They accept the assistance of the Quarian fleet, but they don't reciprocate in any way I've seen (Councilor Irissa snarks about them as "the vagrants" immediately following the Rannoch arc). What makes you think they'd be able, let alone willing, to help the Quarians settle in when they're already stretched thin and asking others for assistance with logistics? At best, the "suit rats" would be a secondary priority for medicine, protection, food etc. At worst, they'd be stripped and abandoned at the first opportunity.

They're self-sufficient on Rannoch - they wouldn't produce a surplus, but they're expected to meet nobody's needs but their own, and they succeed at this. The Quarians expect to cannibalize a good deal of their fleet in the process of resettling on Rannoch (per Tali in ME2), but it leaves plenty of ships left over to aid the wider war effort. I'd expect the food processing gear to be offloaded from the liveships, leaving behind bulky glass cannons which were otherwise cored out. IIRC we only see two in the ending cutscene, though. As we're told in ME3 if the Geth are destroyed, they're roughing it in the beginning, but they make it.