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Writing failures in the Rannoch arc (by AssaultSloth)


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#926
teh DRUMPf!!

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So anything complex and not clear is automatically bad? That's a completely naive perspective. Black and white is childish and uninteresting. There's no complexity or conflict in the story worth a damn. On one side you have purely pure do-gooders that are mighty and heroic and absolutely right. On the other side you have mustache twirling evil-doers that are always up to no good. It's the sort of stuff even a 9 year old would find boring and lame.

 

Well, David7204 is not of age yet. Kid's only nine himself. Want me to prove it to you??

 

Anyone lacking the imagination to come up with a username other than their own real name probably isn't going to come up with a completely meaningless string of numbers at the end of it either. "David" likely being David's actual first-name, 7204 must have some similar significance. Four-digit number combinations are typically used as garage-door passcodes, and those are typically based on the birthday of someone in the family. So, 7204 would be David's D.O.B, and 7/2/04 is the only feasible date to be had from that combo -- making David only nine years old (which aptly explains the preference for Disney-caliber stories over the more mature variety).

 

And no, "Bob from Accounting" isn't fooling anyone, especially not when it's an entry on David's old homepage (TVtropes.com).


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#927
ImaginaryMatter

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So anything complex and not clear is automatically bad? That's a completely naive perspective. Black and white is childish and uninteresting. There's no complexity or conflict in the story worth a damn. On one side you have purely pure do-gooders that are mighty and heroic and absolutely right. On the other side you have mustache twirling evil-doers that are always up to no good. It's the sort of stuff even a 9 year old would find boring and lame.

 

All you need is themes and heroism.

 

Otherwise it's just silly.



#928
sH0tgUn jUliA

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I remember the discussion about how heroes need to be socially awkward and virgins. Well my Shepard nipped the last part in the bud at the consort's if there was any question. I guess she wasn't a real hero. And she did Kelly, Thane and Liara in ME2.



#929
KaiserShep

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You can be a Big Damn Hero. They aren't socially awkward or virgins. There's even a formula to it.



#930
shodiswe

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Well, David7204 is not of age yet. Kid's only nine himself. Want me to prove it to you??
 
Anyone lacking the imagination to come up with a username other than their own real name probably isn't going to come up with a completely meaningless string of numbers at the end of it either. "David" likely being David's actual first-name, 7204 must have some similar significance. Four-digit number combinations are typically used as garage-door passcodes, and those are typically based on the birthday of someone in the family. So, 7204 would be David's D.O.B, and 7/2/04 is the only feasible date to be had from that combo -- making David only nine years old (which aptly explains the preference for Disney-caliber stories over the more mature variety).
 
And no, "Bob from Accounting" isn't fooling anyone, especially not when it's an entry on David's old homepage (TVtropes.com).


If he would be european then he would be born 1972 in April. Year/month/day. Start with the big number then narrow it down, for me it feels backwards to syart with month and day and then jump to a year ;) . Kind of like the Decimal system or metric system.
Tradition I guess.
Which would make him 42, I really don't think his posts were written by a 9 years old.

#931
von uber

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He ain't European that's for sure; you can keep him on your side of the bloody pond!
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#932
rekn2

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you all feed him. why wouldnt he stick around?


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#933
sH0tgUn jUliA

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you all feed him. why wouldnt he stick around?

 

The cycle cannot be broken.


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#934
Steelcan

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he said that the name comes from a Runescape account he had iirc



#935
dreamgazer

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you all feed him. why wouldnt he stick around?

 

Pretty much the explanation for all curmudgeon forum-dwellers, really. 


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#936
ImaginaryMatter

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He ain't European that's for sure; you can keep him on your side of the bloody pond!

 

Hey! Don't force him on us!



#937
von uber

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Hey! Don't force him on us!


One of you! One of you!
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#938
Hadeedak

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If you grew up where I grew up, you'd be dead.

 

...Cause of bears. And avalanches.*

 

 

*The above post is 100% legit serious and should be probably taken as a personal insult.**

 

** Not really.



#939
wolfhowwl

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Mass Effect 3 was certainly a shift in tone. In ME2, the writers had been quite favorable to the Quarians and how they were presented to the player.



#940
KaiserShep

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It did seem to be shifting in ME2, though. You had Koris advocating leaving the geth be, Xen insisting that the geth should be subjugated, and of course possibly having Legion put a more sympathetic flashlight on them, dispelling the idea that the entirety of the geth supported the reapers.
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#941
DeinonSlayer

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It did seem to be shifting in ME2, though. You had Koris advocating leaving the geth be, Xen insisting that the geth should be subjugated, and of course possibly having Legion put a more sympathetic flashlight on them, dispelling the idea that the entirety of the geth supported the reapers.

They were already softening things by then, certainly. It was in ME3 that they really tried to drop a brick on the scales.

ME1: "The Geth killed billions and drove us from our homeworld."
ME2: "The Geth killed billions and drove us from our homeworld!" "Of course they did. We tried to kill them."
ME3: "The Geth killed billions and drove us from our homeworld secured freedom."

I wonder how many people would have reflexively supported Koris' peace effort if they'd made more prominent mention of how everyone who tried to talk to them in the past was shot down the second they reached Geth space; you're basically encouraging Koris to blow himself out of an airlock.

...who am I kidding. It'd still be at the top of the wheel.
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#942
von uber

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That wheel has a lot to answer for. I wish they'd have mixed up the para/rene responses so you actually had to read the prompt and decide (rather than 'I'll pick top please').

#943
ImaginaryMatter

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I kind of understand why they had fixed positions for the dialogue wheel (as position denoted tone and such) which makes picking the options a little more streamlined -- like imagine trying to figure what the tone was from just the couple of words they put on the screen.

 

As a possible fix I think they should put important decisions on a different kind of wheel (or no wheel?), one that has no connotation with colors.



#944
von uber

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Oh I can understand why they did it. But from reading around on here a lot of people just seem to default to 'top right' without any thought at all.
Losing neutral in 3 didn't help.

#945
Ryriena

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Oh I can understand why they did it. But from reading around on here a lot of people just seem to default to 'top right' without any thought at all.
Losing neutral in 3 didn't help.

I tend too agree that it didn't help a lot of my thoughts were neutral to things due to my views in number one. I wanted more neutral options which sucked playing.

#946
shodiswe

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Paragon and Renegade is blown out of proportions in this game.

We got a character thats an elite N7 Operative and a Spectre with a licence to kill or anything s/he wants pretty much.
Even if s/he reputation of being a saint that doesn't mean they won't shoot a trrorist threatening people or that s/he wouldn't do what they thought was right or nessesary.

Even if the agent has got a reputation for being merciful people shouldn't assume they won't get shot if the Spectre and elite soldier thinks it's the only way and don't agree with you.

They tell you, they will shoot and you will die if you try something stupid then you better belive it.

#947
wolfhowwl

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It did seem to be shifting in ME2, though. You had Koris advocating leaving the geth be, Xen insisting that the geth should be subjugated, and of course possibly having Legion put a more sympathetic flashlight on them, dispelling the idea that the entirety of the geth supported the reapers.

 

I was thinking of how they presented Quarian characters in general in ME2.

 

When interacting with another race like say the Asari, the player knows Liara, meets nice characters but then also encounters all sorts of galactic refuse. There is a coldblooded killer, a corrupt diplomat who later becomes a villainous corporate executive, a sex vampire mass murderer, a corrupt SPECTRE, slavers, a sleazy contract lawyer, and of course countless thuggish mercenaries. The player kills dozens of them in combat and executes several others as well. You see the good and the bad and that's just fine.

 

In contrast, Quarian characters are almost always victims that the player saves or a damsel in distress that the player will whiteknight for.

 

You save Veetor from torture at the hands of Cerberus goons (You can turn him over but the game makes it clear that it is the wrong decision).

 

You save that Quarian girl on Illium from her predicament with the slave broker.

 

You help out a Quarian girl on the Citadel with the comically racist Volus and obnoxious cop. This could have been an actual ethical dilemma if she had taken the money but instead it is just about yelling at some bigots on behalf of a damsel in distress.

 

You save the Quarian on the jungle world from being eaten by dogs.

 

You save Kenn on Omega from the elcor's extortion.

 

There is of course rescuing Tali multiple times as well as saving Kal Reegar. 

 

It's obvious what BioWare is doing here. These situations work to engender sympathy in the player. Even the worst Quarian in the game is an extremist instead of an outright villain and there's the emotionally charged justification with his daughter. The Paragon (read as correct) option is to cover up his misdeeds. There aren't any unambiguously bad Quarians like there are for the Asari with Nassania Dantius. The player also never even fights Quarians in combat, kills any, or plays through a plot arc where one is a boss or antagonist. It's a little odd given the good and bad we meet from the other races (or just the outright bad guy stick the Batarians and Vorcha are hit with). Perhaps it is damage control from BioWare to shore up the Quarian's position with players vs. ME2's new Geth?

 

In the long run, it probably would have been better if the game had focused less on being the knight in shining armor and more on actual issues with the Quarians like the strip mining or extortionate behavior mentioned in the Codex or ambiguous situations like if that girl had actually stolen the money out of need. Perhaps the Quarians could sometimes "take" ships? It would add depth and the player would be shown (not told!) their desperation.The Migrant Fleet is dying and they're having to resort to increasingly morally dubious measures to survive. Given later events in ME3, it would help support their case for retaking their homeworld with players.


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#948
wolfhowwl

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Oh I can understand why they did it. But from reading around on here a lot of people just seem to default to 'top right' without any thought at all.
Losing neutral in 3 didn't help.

 

Of course they did. Unfortunately a lot of that has to do with BioWare who ultimately presented a system that once again boiled down to good vs. bad.

 

The games often make it very clear to players that Paragon is the correct choice. Renegade choices are written to result in worse outcomes or just less content in the game. Mass Effect 2 encouraged people to choose a side on the alignment scale with its persuasion checks and Paragon is rewarded with better results and is just more palatable in general.

 

The writing of Renegade was problematic. While it never reached the insanity of Closed Fist in Jade Empire (an alignment that was ostensibly a grey morality but instead ended up being one of the most sadistic and completely evil playthroughs ever), they still didn't really have an idea of what to do with Renegade and boy did it show with it being poorly defined, inconsistent, and sometimes ridiculous. Too often Renegade showed its Dark Side roots and was the edgemaster/troll option where the player was pointlessly bloodthirsty, mean, or sociopathic.

 

FINALLY for ME3, Renegade had thought put into it and was much improved (sabotaging the genophage was well done and one of the better moments in the trilogy) against the first two games, too bad the rest of the game flopped. 


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#949
DeinonSlayer

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@wolfhowwwl
I can only think of three examples of "bad" Quarians. In Garrus' LotSB dossier, it's said that he killed one (with a cough) who evidently had a background in virology and was murdering people with genetically engineered viruses. How that works (a pilgrim, no less!), I'm not sure. There was Golo, the exile from the book Ascension who helped Cerberus attack the fleet (he was exiled for selling Quarians to the collectors - that to my mind would skip right over "exile" and into "summary execution" territory), and there was a Quarian girl on pilgrimage who got in a relationship with a Turian who was part of the Facinus movement and lent material support to the bombing of Taetrus (Cerberus Daily News). One is, as mentioned, buried in LotSB and the other two are in supplemental material. I agree they could have done more to "show, not tell," their desperation - none of the above play into it.

I'd be curious how Tali would react if Lia'Vael had actually stolen the credit chit...

I've seen a lot of people talking about "strip-mining." Is that in a codex entry somewhere? We see them mining in map descriptions of the system next to the one the fleet is in in ME2, but can't think of anything else. There was one codex entry talking about corporations spreading propaganda about "job-stealing quarians" (which, to be fair, seems more like the kind of thing a labor union would do (see also "scabs," treatment thereof) rather than a company which would benefit from the cheap labor, but I guess someone was getting their obligatory anticapitalist rag on - see also Nassana Dantius and every Volus in the galaxy).

One thing I think they could have done is restructure Koris' mission. Instead of walking through the wild to reach an AA platform, we go from the wild to the outskirts of a dead city (a bit of discussion of the war/extermination from the Quarian perspective here), find what's left of the Qwib-Qwib and go inside the wreck (see the living conditions they've been reduced to). A mission to provide perspective to counterbalance the half-hour slideshow of Self-Sacrificing Geth Throughout History we get in the consensus.
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#950
TheOneTrueBioticGod

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What's wrong with strip-mining uninhabited worlds? How is that an issue?


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