1331 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

What's wrong with strip-mining uninhabited worlds? How is that an issue?

Beats me. Reminds me of how in ME1 humanity is viewed as "a bully" for expanding in power, territory and influence faster than some would like. "Aggression? Or ambition, in the eyes of those who don't try as hard?"

Now, dumping their criminals on whatever world they happen to pass by? That I can see justifiably pissing people off. Granted, they don't have the resources for a nonproductive prison population (and in a population more than double that of NYC you're going to have criminals), but still...

Question: If aliens showed up in the solar system tomorrow and started mining out our asteroid belt or terraforming Venus or what not to their own needs, would we really have any grounds to stop them? Sure we might get pissed that they're harvesting what might have been our industrial resources had our space program developed faster, but we've never been there. We haven't exactly staked a claim. I wonder how the Citadel Council would weigh such a case.

[KaiserShep]

What's wrong with strip-mining uninhabited worlds? How is that an issue?

 

Maybe there's some universal "Gaia" type belief among the other races. Won't someone please think of the goddess??

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Beats me. Reminds me of how in ME1 humanity is viewed as "a bully" for expanding in power, territory and influence faster than some would like. "Aggression? Or ambition, in the eyes of those who don't try as hard?"

Now, dumping their criminals on whatever world they happen to pass by? That I can see justifiably pissing people off. Granted, they don't have the resources for a nonproductive prison population (and in a population more than double that of NYC you're going to have criminals), but still...

Question: If aliens showed up in the solar system tomorrow and started mining out our asteroid belt or terraforming Venus or what not to their own needs, would we really have any grounds to stop them? Sure we might get pissed that they're harvesting what might have been our industrial resources had our space program developed faster, but we've never been there. We haven't exactly staked a claim. I wonder how the Citadel Council would weigh such a case.

As long as it isn't in Council space, I doubt that they'd care. 

If that time when the Quarians attempted to colonize a suitable planet and the Turians forced them out happened in the Turians territory, they were justified. 

[DeinonSlayer]

As long as it isn't in Council space, I doubt that they'd care.
If that time when the Quarians attempted to colonize a suitable planet and the Turians forced them out happened in the Turians territory, they were justified.

Ekuna is in the Phoenix Massing, which (per the codex entry on the planet Aite) is in the Terminus systems.

The Quarians discovered it. They went to the Council so that it might be recognized as a Quarian world. When they recognized Council authority, the planet and the system it was located in became part of Citadel space. The Council used that newfound authority to drive them out and give the planet to the Elcor, whom they were on better terms with, and who were better suited to its high gravity.

They were willing to send in dreadnoughts to drive them out or bomb them off of the planet if they refused to leave, but eighty years later they can't be bothered to step up patrols of their own borders in the wake of Eden Prime lest they provoke the ire of Terminus warlords? Riiiiight.

Seems to me the Council was feeding Udina a line of crap. They were content to sit back and let the heretics put us uppity humans back in our place without getting their hands dirty.

[jtav]

And people wonder why I want to see the Citadel government dismantled...

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Ekuna is in the Phoenix Massing, which is in the Terminus systems.

The Quarians discovered it. They went to the Council so that it might be recognized as a Quarian world. When they recognized Council authority, the planet and the system it was located in became part of Citadel space. The Council used that newfound authority to drive them out and give the planet to the Elcor, whom they were on better terms with, and who were better suited to its high gravity.

They were willing to send in dreadnoughts to drive them out or bomb them off of the planet if they refused to leave, but eighty years later they can't be bothered to step up patrols of their own borders in the wake of Eden Prime lest they provoke the ire of Terminus warlords? Riiiiight.

That just seems like bad writing. 

But reading the Codex entry on the wiki, it seems like there were some other groups first. 

[DeinonSlayer]

The Quarians were there first. Development firms followed while they were settling in, then the Council evicted them.

First discovered by the quarians at the turn of the century, Ekuna is habitable but a second-tier choice for most species. Circling an orange sun, Ekuna averages below freezing temperatures. This led development firms to colonize at the planet's equator, where the climate is tolerable for agriculture. The quarians, seeking a homeworld of their own, petitioned the Citadel Council for the right to take over Ekuna, but they had already settled a few hundred thousand quarians on the planet before approaching the Council. Seeing this occupation as an illegal act, the Council turned a deaf ear to quarian pleas and gave the world to the elcor, who could withstand the high gravity of the world far better. The quarians squatting on the planet were given one galactic standard month to leave, at which point their colonies would be bombarded. The junk left behind by the fleeing quarians clogs up portions of the landscape to this day. Non-elcor visitors to Ekuna are advised to use personal or vehicular mass effect fields to lighten the pressure, as the surface gravity will otherwise cause health and mechanical problems.

[themikefest]

What do you expect from the council? They're a couple cans short of a six pack. Or as I like to call them, dumb, dumber and dumbest.

[DeinonSlayer]

What do you expect from the council? They're a couple cans short of a six pack. Or as I like to call them, dumb, dumber and dumbest.

Ah, but which is which?

Probably need a "dumber-est" there too. Udina's on the stand as well.

[themikefest]

Ah, but which is which?

Probably need a "dumber-est" there too. Udina's on the stand as well.

just add dummy

 

dumb, dumber, dumbest and dummy. Let the people choose which word applies to each councillor.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

That entry is really unclear. It mentions the development firms first, then the Quarians occupying it. It's convoluted. 

It's still bad writing. Realistically, a lot of Quarians would leave the fleet and maybe attempt to become citizens of the Hierarchy. 

[themikefest]

It's why I almost always sacrifice them in ME1

I always sacrifice them.

 

The new council is just dumb, dumber, dumbest and dummy 2.0

[Barquiel]

What's wrong with strip-mining uninhabited worlds? How is that an issue?

The problem is that they're also visiting inhabited worlds.

Because of the Flotilla's limited resources, quarians strip-mine the systems they pass through, which often puts them at odds with any species currently settled there. (...) The fleet's demand for resources and the quarian tendency to take whatever employment they can find, often at the expense of native inhabitants, further harms their reputation, and the leaders of any colonies or systems through which the Migrant Fleet might pass are often inclined to donate any spare items of use to the quarians as a bribe to keep them from visiting.

[Obadiah]

Council seemed more interested in maintaining the status quo than resolving issues. Got an issue? We'll rationalize a reason not to help.

I bet having the Quarians as a roaming homeless people served some purpose.

Like all bodies of power, it probably changed over time.

[DeinonSlayer]

The problem is that they're also visiting inhabited worlds.Because of the Flotilla's limited resources, quarians strip-mine the systems they pass through, which often puts them at odds with any species currently settled there. (...) The fleet's demand for resources and the quarian tendency to take whatever employment they can find, often at the expense of native inhabitants, further harms their reputation, and the leaders of any colonies or systems through which the Migrant Fleet might pass are often inclined to donate any spare items of use to the quarians as a bribe to keep them from visiting.

Hearkens back to the question I asked at the top of the page. If nobody has laid claim to the materials, is there any legal grounds to object? It certainly wouldn't make you any friends to mine like that, but it isn't illegal.

Council seemed more interested in maintaining the status quo than resolving issues. Got an issue? We'll rationalize a reason not to help.

I bet having the Quarians as a roaming homeless people served some purpose.

Like all bodies of power, it probably changed over time.

Pretty much. They expect you to follow their rules to the letter, but they'll cut you loose the second you turn to them for help.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The problem is that they're also visiting inhabited worlds.

Because of the Flotilla's limited resources, quarians strip-mine the systems they pass through, which often puts them at odds with any species currently settled there. (...) The fleet's demand for resources and the quarian tendency to take whatever employment they can find, often at the expense of native inhabitants, further harms their reputation, and the leaders of any colonies or systems through which the Migrant Fleet might pass are often inclined to donate any spare items of use to the quarians as a bribe to keep them from visiting.

 

But when you're forced in exile for 300 years you stop caring about what other inhabitants think. You just start taking what you need. It's about survival of your species. The end justifies the means. The council won't let you settle on a planet that will stop this permanently. Perhaps the Quarians should just have found a world somewhere and settled on it and not made contact with the Council. Of course that wouldn't work out since someone would have informed the Council "Hey have you heard the Quarians settled on blah blah blah out in the middle of nowhere."

[Barquiel]

We don't have enough information...and galactic "geography" is 100% screwed up in ME2 (we know Aite was briefly considered part of Citadel space during its first wave of colonization), so it's hard to speculate why the council didn't give them Ekuna for example. The only reason I can think of is that the elcor really wanted that planet for some reason.
 

Council seemed more interested in maintaining the status quo than resolving issues. Got an issue? We'll rationalize a reason not to help.

I bet having the Quarians as a roaming homeless people served some purpose.

Like all bodies of power, it probably changed over time.

 
Galactic war is the number one fear of the Council (not at all surprising, given the Rachni Wars and Krogan Rebellions)...and Bioware's idea of the Terminus systems from ME1 was completely different than what we got in ME2. In ME1, it was described as a rather loose coalition of unseen species united in not wanting to bow to council authority, posing a serious threat to the citadel races. In ME2, we have an asari on top with some merc groups all helmed by races we're familiar with...

[Jukaga]

@wolfhowwwl
I can only think of three examples of "bad" Quarians. In Garrus' LotSB dossier, it's said that he killed one (with a cough) who evidently had a background in virology and was murdering people with genetically engineered viruses. How that works (a pilgrim, no less!), I'm not sure. There was Golo, the exile from the book Ascension who helped Cerberus attack the fleet (he was exiled for selling Quarians to the collectors - that to my mind would skip right over "exile" and into "summary execution" territory), and there was a Quarian girl on pilgrimage who got in a relationship with a Turian who was part of the Facinus movement and lent material support to the bombing of Taetrus (Cerberus Daily News). One is, as mentioned, buried in LotSB and the other two are in supplemental material. I agree they could have done more to "show, not tell," their desperation - none of the above play into it.

I'd be curious how Tali would react if Lia'Vael had actually stolen the credit chit...

I've seen a lot of people talking about "strip-mining." Is that in a codex entry somewhere? We see them mining in map descriptions of the system next to the one the fleet is in in ME2, but can't think of anything else. There was one codex entry talking about corporations spreading propaganda about "job-stealing quarians" (which, to be fair, seems more like the kind of thing a labor union would do (see also "scabs," treatment thereof) rather than a company which would benefit from the cheap labor, but I guess someone was getting their obligatory anticapitalist rag on - see also Nassana Dantius and every Volus in the galaxy).

One thing I think they could have done is restructure Koris' mission. Instead of walking through the wild to reach an AA platform, we go from the wild to the outskirts of a dead city (a bit of discussion of the war/extermination from the Quarian perspective here), find what's left of the Qwib-Qwib and go inside the wreck (see the living conditions they've been reduced to). A mission to provide perspective to counterbalance the half-hour slideshow of Self-Sacrificing Geth Throughout History we get in the consensus.

My 'like' button is wearing out from all your quality posts!

[wolfhowwl]

What's wrong with strip-mining uninhabited worlds? How is that an issue?

 

What if they're already claimed by someone else?

 

From the Codex: "As the fleet passes through the a system, swarms of mining vessels work over asteroids for metals and siliceous materials and cometary bodies for water ice and organics. Quarian miners are adept at locating and strip-mining space-borne resources. This sparks conflict with corporations already working the system."

 

Will no one here think of the shareholders?

[Jukaga]

Ekuna is in the Phoenix Massing, which (per the codex entry on the planet Aite) is in the Terminus systems.

The Quarians discovered it. They went to the Council so that it might be recognized as a Quarian world. When they recognized Council authority, the planet and the system it was located in became part of Citadel space. The Council used that newfound authority to drive them out and give the planet to the Elcor, whom they were on better terms with, and who were better suited to its high gravity.

They were willing to send in dreadnoughts to drive them out or bomb them off of the planet if they refused to leave, but eighty years later they can't be bothered to step up patrols of their own borders in the wake of Eden Prime lest they provoke the ire of Terminus warlords? Riiiiight.

Seems to me the Council was feeding Udina a line of crap. They were content to sit back and let the heretics put us uppity humans back in our place without getting their hands dirty.

All good arguments for Cerberus, or something like it to protect human interests in a backstabbing, hostile society like Citadel Space.

[wolfhowwl]

Council seemed more interested in maintaining the status quo than resolving issues. Got an issue? We'll rationalize a reason not to help.

I bet having the Quarians as a roaming homeless people served some purpose.

Like all bodies of power, it probably changed over time.

 

Don't the Quarians compete with the Turians for the same Dextro worlds?

 

Of course the real purpose is that BioWare liked Battlestar Galactica.

[Jukaga]

We don't have enough information...and galactic "geography" is 100% screwed up in ME2 (we know Aite was briefly considered part of Citadel space during its first wave of colonization), so it's hard to speculate why the council didn't give them Ekuna for example. The only reason I can think of is that the elcor really wanted that planet for some reason.
 

 
Galactic war is the number one fear of the Council (not at all surprising, given the Rachni Wars and Krogan Rebellions)...and Bioware's idea of the Terminus systems from ME1 was completely different than what we got in ME2. In ME1, it was described as a rather loose coalition of unseen species united in not wanting to bow to council authority, posing a serious threat to the citadel races. In ME2, we have an asari on top with some merc groups all helmed by races we're familiar with...

Back in ME1, the Terminus Systems were mysterious and dangerous, but with the retcon in ME2 how are we supposed to take the Council's fears of Terminus retribution seriously? They have no warships worthy of the name from what we were shown. They have no organization beyond feudal tribute relationships.

[Jorji Costava]

It's obvious what BioWare is doing here. These situations work to engender sympathy in the player. Even the worst Quarian in the game is an extremist instead of an outright villain and there's the emotionally charged justification with his daughter. The Paragon (read as correct) option is to cover up his misdeeds. There aren't any unambiguously bad Quarians like there are for the Asari with Nassania Dantius. The player also never even fights Quarians in combat, kills any, or plays through a plot arc where one is a boss or antagonist. It's a little odd given the good and bad we meet from the other races (or just the outright bad guy stick the Batarians and Vorcha are hit with). Perhaps it is damage control from BioWare to shore up the Quarian's position with players vs. ME2's new Geth?

 

To all of the examples you provided, you can add the disproportionate number of well-known voice actors who are playing what essentially amount to glorified bit parts during Tali's loyalty mission. How many voice actors do you recognize from the loyalty missions of Garrus, Mordin or Miranda? I think ME2 was desperately, desperately trying to get you to believe that the Quarians are awesome and that you should like them, but my sense that the game was trying too hard to achieve this effect was precisely the thing that made me not like them very much.

[grey_wind]

To all of the examples you provided, you can add the disproportionate number of well-known voice actors who are playing what essentially amount to glorified bit parts during Tali's loyalty mission. How many voice actors do you recognize from the loyalty missions of Garrus, Mordin or Miranda? I think ME2 was desperately, desperately trying to get you to believe that the Quarians are awesome and that you should like them, but my sense that the game was trying too hard to achieve this effect was precisely the thing that made me not like them very much.

It's actually more likely that the reason there are so many famous voice actors for the Quarians is because you don't have to worry about synchronizing facial models with the voice coming from the character. Since the Quarians are always masked, you can have any voice come from any of them without it looking absurd. For example, trade Miranda and Jack's vocal styles and see how badly that clashes with their character models. On the other hand, with the Quarians, you can have the high profile voice actors record their lines at any time in a studio without worrying about whether or not their character models/concept art has been finalized.

 

I also disagree that ME2 was trying really hard to get you to like the Quarians. In fact, what I loved about the Admiralty Board in ME2 was how complex and ambiguous they were for minor characters. Raan was Tali's trusted familial friend but was not above manipulating her for her "own good", Koris was a jackass but also a pacifist, and Gerrel was kind hearted but a warmonger. Even Rael was torn between love to his family and commitment to the Quarian cause, and that led him to become one of their worst war criminals in history. I don't think ME2's intention was to get you to like the Quarians; it was to simply show that the Quarians were a diverse race of people (not solely represented by Tali) with their own unique opinions, fears and goals.

 

If there are any races the games have tried to beat you over the head with loving, it's the Geth (especially in ME3) and the thrice damned Asari.