1331 réponses à ce sujet

[Hadeedak]

Since I'm scared of the quarian geth debate (and also have nothing to add beyond my usual 'both sides have valid points and made mistakes'), I'm going to avoid that and go for something that annoyed me.

 

Legion is not its platform. Legion is a massive collection of geth runtimes uploaded into that platform. I do not see why it'd be a horrible thing if he has some code from the original rebel, or if he doesn't. I doubt it's all the same geth in Legion, or even the majority of the geth in Legion, given what a hippy it is when dealing with Shepard.

 

I also think (although tragically, this never gets explored in game), it'd be interesting to have individuals who are, at the same time, multiple programs. Each platform is many, many geth, and I kind of like the idea that they form collectives in balls to be individuals, against the whole background sea of the geth consensus.

[DeinonSlayer]

So.... How long did it take the Allied fleet to travel through the Arcturus/Earth relay? like thousands of warships jumping through the relay. (Sword fleet)

Which is, itself, bullshit - an instance where rule of cool trumped existing lore.

Later on we see the Cain firing a projectile which hones in on its target with the agility of a moth circling a lamp. Never mind that the projectile fired by a Cain is described as simply being a very big, very fast bullet - a miniaturized mass accelerator cannon which should have no tracking capabilities at all.

This is a big reason why the debate never ends. The argument I make is only valid when I stay consistent with the rules the writers established, even when the writers don't. When the writers break their own rules to make something happen, I see it as indicative of poor writing. You may like it because it comes down on your side of this particular debate, but that does nothing to change the situation.

[shodiswe]

They are not dependant on their native plantlife outside of the fact that it's a dextro foodsource. The plantlife however is dependant on them since there are no Bees or bumblebees or butterflies or such to pollinate them.

In the Quarians absence the Geth took over the role to manage some of these biological systems on the planet to avoid killing of the whole planet due to the recklessness of their creators.

The Quarians immunesystem has been weakened du to their sterile environment aboard the fleet however, which is a different problem all together. It's certainly not the Geth's fault.

[DoomsdayDevice]

A lot of this can be explained if you consider the possibility that Legion (and the Geth in general) have been rewritten. He's abandoned all his previous ideals, and falls in love with the Reaper code, accepting the gifts of the old machines, instead of rejecting him, like he said true Geth would at the end of ME2.

 

The poor victim role of the Geth is emphasized to make you empathize with them, and make you allow the upload of the Reaper code. If there's ever going to be a follow up to this story, I think it'll bite people in the ass who allowed it.

[KaiserShep]

The Cain weeps over its misrepresentation, and so do I.

[DeinonSlayer]

They are not dependant on their native plantlife outside of the fact that it's a dextro foodsource. The plantlife however is dependant on them since there are no Bees or bumblebees or butterflies or such to pollinate them.In the Quarians absence the Geth took over the role to manage some of these biological systems on the planet to avoid killing of the whole planet due to the recklessness of their creators.The Quarians immunesystem has been weakened du to their sterile environment aboard the fleet however, which is a different problem all together. It's certainly not the Geth's fault.

From Rannoch's codex entry (which you've seen and ignored before):

"Rannoch has no insect life. As a result, its pollinating plants evolved to rely on animals for propagation. This symbiosis between flora and fauna is responsible for the quarians' weakened immune systems, which made colonization of other planets extremely difficult after their exile from Rannoch. For many quarians, reclaiming their homeworld from the geth is a matter of both cultural and physiological necessity."

No dialogue acknowledges this in-game, with the exception of Tali's line about how "our bodies carried the seeds which spread the desert grass."

[shodiswe]

" For many quarians, reclaiming their homeworld from the geth is a matter of both cultural and physiological necessity."

Is a political opinion. Their immunesystem is weak, but they don't need the plantlife to live outside of it beign a food source.
The plantlife however evolved to rely on animals and ofcourse Quarians to walk past them and have their pollen get stuck in their skin, hair and clothes.

The Quarians don't really need to be pollinated. That just sounds crazy.

It would also be easier for them to adapt to their old planet than a new one, but it wouldn't be impossible to adapt to a new one.
For those many quarians with that opinion it's really due to convenience, not necessity.

5 000 years on a new planet and they wouldn't even miss the old one, it would likely make them sick. It's not a necessity for their species survival.


On the otherhand, the Geth might have elt them return if they had agreed to that peacesummit and asked nicely, aswell as agreed on a mutual defencepact against the Reapers with the rest of the galaxy.

Nationalists are the people who tend to talk about cultural necessities in the context of driving of other people to claim territory. It's for people like Gerrel and X who would sacrifise both Quarians and Shepard and the rest of the galaxy to aquire their price.

[DeinonSlayer]

" For many quarians, reclaiming their homeworld from the geth is a matter of both cultural and physiological necessity."Is a political opinion. Their immunesystem is weak, but they don't need the plantlife to live outside of it beign a food source.The plantlife however evolved to rely on animals and ofcourse Quarians to walk past them and have their pollen get stuck in their skin, hair and clothes.The Quarians don't really need to be pollinated. That just sounds crazy.

They do need it. You don't seem to have been paying attention. They aren't simply funny-legged humans in body suits, they're aliens with their own physiological needs.

Tali: "Because Rannoch has no insect life, plants evolved symbiotic relationships with large animals (including but not limited to Quarians) to transport seeds or pollen." The animals need the plants as much as the plants need them. Physiological necessity. That's exactly what the codex entry is saying.

Tali: "It's the difference between sixty years and six hundred."

Tali: "Our bodies carried the seeds which spread the desert grass."

Javik: "You are intoxicated. A foolish risk, given Quarian ecosymbiotic physiology."

[KaiserShep]

Honestly, the whole thing about the quarians' symbiotic relationship with its plantlife and the time it would take to adapt to a new world doesn't really matter, because in the end, they're still stuck huddled together in spaceships. It seems to me that they could just as well construct fully-enclosed environments on the surface of a suitable planet. They would be easier to maintain than thousands of spaceships, and much easier to expand as the population grows. The only thing that might really stop them is being allowed to establish a colony in the first place. Sure, they wouldn't enjoy sitting under a tree or basking in the sun anytime soon, but it's no different from their current state anyway, but they would be avoiding the major perils involved with space travel.

[shodiswe]

The physiological need of the Quarians is to eat the plants and breathe the oxygen they are produsing.

The Plants needs them to spred their pollen and seeds.

They can certainly wait 600 years. Somehow the geth seemed to know how to stimulate their immunesystem a lot faster... Maybe the Quarians could have research medicine and their biolgical needs rather than weapons for 300 years.

Tbh, the reaper war can be won witohut both the Geth and the Quarians. But I guess help is always appreciated if they decide to do their part for the galaxys future survival, like everyone else.

[DeinonSlayer]

Honestly, the whole thing about the quarians' symbiotic relationship with its plantlife and the time it would take to adapt to a new world doesn't really matter, because in the end, they're still stuck huddled together in spaceships. It seems to me that they could just as well construct fully-enclosed environments on the surface of a suitable planet. They would be easier to maintain than thousands of spaceships, and much easier to expand as the population grows. The only thing that might really stop them is being allowed to establish a colony in the first place.

I personally think Terra Nova would have been a good fit (for a dome city anyway), but again, it'd take centuries longer to adapt and they'd need to perform extensive self-modifications which are outlawed by the Council and which they don't have the equipment for to remove their dependency on plant life they no longer have access to.

The physiological need of the Quarians is to eat the plants and breathe the oxygen they are produsing.The Plants needs them to spred their pollen and seeds.They can certainly wait 600 years. Somehow the geth seemed to know how to stimulate their immunesystem a lot faster... Maybe the Quarians could have research medicine and their biolgical needs rather than weapons for 300 years.

Your headcanon (which, as I see it, contradicts what we're told so as better to villianize them). Re: geth in suits, I'd direct your attention back to point 4 in the original post.

I'm having a hard time seeing anything constructive coming from continuing to debate with you at this point.

[shodiswe]

I personally think Terra Nova would have been a good fit, but again, it'd take centuries longer to adapt and they'd need to perform extensive self-modifications which are outlawed by the Council and which they don't have the equipment for to remove their dependency on plant life they no longer have access to.

Your headcanon (which, as I see it, contradicts what we're told so as better to villianize them). Re: geth in suits, I'd direct your attention back to point 4 in the original post.

I'm having a hard time seeing anything constructive coming from continuing to debate with you at this point.

Terra Nova is not a Dextro world, all the plantlife would be poisonus and inedible to them unless they kill of the entire biosphere by nuking it and then lettign the world start over and introduse Dextro plantlife and life to the now dead world.
Same with that other Heavygravity world that the Quarians wanted to colonise. It really was better for Elchor, who would be able to live with both the flora and fauna and the gravity.

The Quarians did find a world, but it wasn't suitable to them. Even a barren world would have been better in the long run.
I guess the only resources were free oxugen and abundant mineralsupplies for their agressive mining methods. A world that's on the limit of giving you a blackout just for trying to stand up, nevermind if you got a healthcondition... Can't be a good world to colonise longterm. No wonder the Council said no. The council shoudl have made sure the Quarians got paid for their discovery however, unless the damage they did would have resulted in serious fines and prison sentences.
They wouldn't have adapted to either of these two in a billion years.

[KaiserShep]

I personally think Terra Nova would have been a good fit, but again, it'd take centuries longer to adapt and they'd need to perform extensive self-modifications which are outlawed by the Council and which they don't have the equipment for to remove their dependency on plant life they no longer have access to.

 

The point is, living in a sealed habitat on the surface of a planet is relatively safer than living in a spaceship that can be anywhere from a few decades to a couple hundred years old. Whatever supplies the quarians currently use to live on is clearly adequate enough that they can expand upon it in a setup that allows them to freely create greenhouse facilities without having to worry about augmenting their old starship tech. Adapting to the environment through gene manipulation should really be a secondary concern. Other species establish giant colonies on planets that support no life at all. There's no reason the quarians can't do this. In ME2, when Tali complains about how long it would take for the quarians to adapt, one of the things that goes through my mind is "Like humans adapt to the environment of Mars?"

[shodiswe]

The point is, living in a sealed habitat on the surface of a planet is relatively safer than living in a spaceship that can be anywhere from a few decades to a couple hundred years old. Whatever supplies the quarians currently use to live on is clearly adequate enough that they can expand upon it in a setup that allows them to freely create greenhouse facilities without having to worry about augmenting their old starship tech. Other species establish giant colonies on planets that support no life at all. There's no reason the quarians can't do this.

A planet with a normal for quarians gravity would be preferable. Then they would need, water or water-Ice. If it's got an Oxygen atmosphere that they can filter then that's a huge bonus. If it's a Dextroplanet then it's next to perfect.

A Levo planet should be for Levo lifeforms first and foremost.

[DeinonSlayer]

The point is, living in a sealed habitat on the surface of a planet is relatively safer than living in a spaceship that can be anywhere from a few decades to a couple hundred years old. Whatever supplies the quarians currently use to live on is clearly adequate enough that they can expand upon it in a setup that allows them to freely create greenhouse facilities without having to worry about augmenting their old starship tech. Adapting to the environment through gene manipulation should really be a secondary concern. Other species establish giant colonies on planets that support no life at all. There's no reason the quarians can't do this. In ME2, when Tali complains about how long it would take for the quarians to adapt, one of the things that goes through my mind is "Like humans adapt to the environment of Mars?"

Their supplies actually aren't adequate, though. They were always dependent on external infrastructure and trade to keep the fleet going, and the same would apply to a domed city. Without the Geth having restored infrastructure on Rannoch, they probably wouldn't be entirely self-sufficient there, either, at least in the beginning.

There is one other significant downside to restricting themselves to domed habitats...

[Obadiah]

...
I've never understood this notion that the Geth should be lauded because they couldn't make up their minds on whether to kill off the last tattered, fleeing refugees fast enough to actually do so.

Its a point for the Geth because their enemy the Quarians would not have done the same.

[DeinonSlayer]

Its a point for the Geth because their enemy the Quarians would not have done the same.

What, get bogged down by indecision? The Quarians do that all the time.

Sparing the survivors wasn't a conscious choice by the Geth; they couldn't anticipate the consequences for themselves (ex: the Council bringing the hammer down) if they finished the Quarians off and stalled until they lost their opportunity to do so. It wasn't mercy.

[SporkFu]

What, get bogged down by indecision? The Quarians do that all the time.

Sparing the survivors wasn't a conscious choice by the Geth; they couldn't anticipate the consequences for themselves (ex: the Council bringing the hammer down) if they finished the Quarians off and stalled until they lost their opportunity to do so. It wasn't mercy.

I dunno if the geth were too worried about the council, they were killing everything that entered the perseus veil for the last 300 years. They might decided, "let them come." Plus the council would never bring the hammer down because they don't want to send a fleet outside of council space and risk an all-out war in the terminus systems... at least that's what they told shepard. Ultimately they may have decided the geth did them a favor in getting rid of the "suit-rats" so that they would stop depleting planets of all their resources. 

[AlanC9]

Sparing the survivors wasn't a conscious choice by the Geth; they couldn't anticipate the consequences for themselves (ex: the Council bringing the hammer down) if they finished the Quarians off and stalled until they lost their opportunity to do so. It wasn't mercy.

That's a fairly odd reading of the source material.The geth were aware that the quarians were going to get away through the relay, so they knew that delay meant refraining from total genocide. 

[Obadiah]

See, this is why I like these conversations. The Geth were wrong, and if they did someone "right" it was for the wrong reasons. Rinse, repeat, and, oh yeah, the Quarians are victims.

What, get bogged down by indecision? The Quarians do that all the time.

Sparing the survivors wasn't a conscious choice by the Geth; they couldn't anticipate the consequences for themselves (ex: the Council bringing the hammer down) if they finished the Quarians off and stalled until they lost their opportunity to do so. It wasn't mercy.

Really? I think it is actually worthwhile that the Geth did not actively decide to commit a complete act of Genocide the way the Quarians did.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

After the Quarians escaped, the combined fleets of the council massed on the borders to the Perseus Veil. If the Quarians had never gotten out, the Turian, Asari, Salarian, Batarian, etc fleets would've moved in and destroyed the Geth with ease. 

[DeinonSlayer]

That's a fairly odd reading of the source material.

Trying to remember, I think Legion and the VI have slightly conflicting accounts at that point. I think one talks about not being able to anticipate the consequences and the other talks about how they ceased to be a threat. I may very well be off.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

So.... How long did it take the Allied fleet to travel through the Arcturus/Earth relay?



Looks like thousands of warships jumping through the relay. (Sword fleet)

 

Lore in the Mass Effect Universe is a zany free-for-all. - KaiserShep

 

Note that this also applies to the Reaper blitz through the mass relays. The lore was broken and I won't say retconned - I'll say rewritten when the reapers invaded. Because they used the mass relays to get their massive fleet through to various systems and hit Earth and Palaven simultaneously, the rule of taking 2 weeks to get a massive fleet through a relay had to go bye bye.

 

Once the writers pull something out of their asses, they have to pull something else out of their asses, and then they have to keep pulling things out of their asses, and then we end up with Mass Effect 3. All because of crap they pulled in ME1 and ME2 without thinking of the consequences.

[DeinonSlayer]

See, this is why I like these conversations. The Geth were wrong, and if they did someone "right" it was for the wrong reasons. Rinse, repeat, and, oh yeah, the Quarians are victims.Really? I think it is actually worthwhile that the Geth did not actively decide to commit a complete act of Genocide the way the Quarians did.

No, just 99.15% of one (minimum - seventeen million divided by two billion). So much better.

Since the Quarians lost the war, we'll never know if they would have wholly destroyed them or reduced them to a controllable level again (which, to be completely fair, is similar). Could we really go through with destroying every device we have which runs the Java programming language if they started killing people for turning their phones off? Think of what we'd be doing to ourselves.

I've never said the Geth were always wrong, or the Quarians were always right. It's tough to debate people on the subject who have thoroughly convinced themselves that 99.15% of the population died with rifles in their hands.

[Sir DeLoria]

Deinon bro, don't waste your time arguing with Shodiswe, he just keeps repeating the same points over and over, ignores what you say, ignores the other side of the conflict completely and uses weird headcanon as an argument(Legion "the Lincoln of synthetics", wut?).