1331 réponses à ce sujet

[Jorji Costava]

Fair enough points on the VO's, although I stand by what I said by and large.

With Koris and Gerrel, I didn't see much in the way of complexity. Mostly, I saw an extension of ME's pervasive "Men of action are competent and awesome; diplomats and politicians are inept and untrustworthy" trope. Koris' enlightened attitudes don't translate into action (he's the one who demands that security escort Legion from the premises), and I don't think anyone left that mission thinking that he would have played any substantive role in the peace process. With Shala'Raan, I mostly saw in her actions another device with which to engender sympathy in the player towards Tali; what she does is more about the effect it has on Tali and less about what it reveals about her own character (the fact that so many plot devices in this mission seem geared solely towards this end is actually my main problem with it). Raan's paternalism plays no role at all in later events; once it has put Tali in the position of being flabbergasted by the charges against her, it's dispensed with in short order.

As wolfhowwwl mentioned upthread, the Quarians are the only major race which can never serve as fodder for the player during combat during the entire trilogy (if not for Saren, the Turians would be the other example). For all the crap we give the Asari (I don't much care for them either), there are a number of times during both ME1 and ME2 where we fight Asari in decent numbers. And God knows that the Geth have spent most of the trilogy as acceptable targets; I think this partly explains why the writers tried to overcompensate so ham-fistedly in the opposite direction with missions like the consensus (which, keep in mind, is also partly about rehabilitating the image of the Quarians -- they didn't all just regard the Geth as machines to be destroyed). The Quarians don't have a similar excuse, which is partly why I get so frustrated with their content. Compared to the other races, a disproportionate amount of it is dedicated to engendering sympathy or attachment of some kind, whether to their race in general or to Tali in particular. Even characters who do really bad things are to be objects of sympathetic understanding, because after all, Rael'Zorah only did it because he loved his daughter.

I'm not saying that they're all to blame for the Morning War, or that this means you should side with the Geth or whatever; I'm not particularly interested in these in-universe debates. Nor do I think it's bad to try and generate sympathy for a particular character or species, especially a marginalized group like the Quarians. But I find that many of the devices used to achieve this are clunky at best.

[KaiserShep]

But when you're forced in exile for 300 years you stop caring about what other inhabitants think. You just start taking what you need. It's about survival of your species. The end justifies the means. The council won't let you settle on a planet that will stop this permanently. Perhaps the Quarians should just have found a world somewhere and settled on it and not made contact with the Council. Of course that wouldn't work out since someone would have informed the Council "Hey have you heard the Quarians settled on blah blah blah out in the middle of nowhere."

 

Heh, I imagine if they were more beefed up technologically, they could be like the aliens from Independence Day, just roaming from world to world, stripping its resources then retreating through the relay.

 

 

Back in ME1, the Terminus Systems were mysterious and dangerous, but with the retcon in ME2 how are we supposed to take the Council's fears of Terminus retribution seriously? They have no warships worthy of the name from what we were shown. They have no organization beyond feudal tribute relationships.

 

Maybe the Council is more afraid of rocking the boat on their secret drug trade with the rabble of the Terminus.

[Jukaga]

TBH, Tali calling Rael 'the worst war criminal in our history' sounds like a bit of a stretch. Why would Quarians be at all bothered by experiments on working Geth?(other than them escaping and killing everyone that is) I mean seriously, they are mechanical platforms for pseudo-sentient expert systems. Pseudo-sentien expert systems that nearly wiped out your race and that you are locked in a genocidal war to the finish with. But now it's a terrible crime to take a wrench and screwdriver to these things?

[shodiswe]

TBH, Tali calling Rael 'the worst war criminal in our history' sounds like a bit of a stretch. Why would Quarians be at all bothered by experiments on working Geth?(other than them escaping and killing everyone that is) I mean seriously, they are mechanical platforms for pseudo-sentient expert systems. Pseudo-sentien expert systems that nearly wiped out your race and that you are locked in a genocidal war to the finish with. But now it's a terrible crime to take a wrench and screwdriver to these things?

Because they are considered alive, at least at that point... Probably from the point where the Quarians decided to kill them at the start of the Morning War.
If the Geth were truly locked in a genocidal war, then they would have persued the Quarians. The Geth arn't locked, they couldn't care less(as long as the Quarians don't get close enough to be able to hurt them), the Quarians are.

[DeinonSlayer]

Because they are considered alive, at least at that point... Probably from the point where the Quarians decided to kill them at the start of the Morning War.
If the Geth were truly locked in a genocidal war, then they would have persued the Quarians. The Geth arn't locked, they couldn't care less(as long as the Quarians don't get close enough to be able to hurt them), the Quarians are.

They pursued them off of every world they held, even those with no military value, and killed any who couldn't escape. It isn't that the Geth aren't locked in a war anymore; they simply ran out of people to kill and sat behind their borders for three centuries afterwards, doing the same to anyone who stopped by for a chat.

ME2: "Why haven't the Quarians prepared for war?" "What, just like that? *something about the difficulty associated with arming the entire fleet*. People are afraid, or comfortable, or guilt-ridden over whether we were cruel to the Geth." (On the Alarei, speaking at the console, choose the paragon option discouraging war, then the renegade option asking why they haven't tried taking Rannoch back). The Quarians are locked in this conflict because the Geth occupied the planet they need to survive with no intention of ever returning it - they didn't try to take it back until the Reapers invaded and lit a fire under their collective asses.

"But Legion!..." didn't exist two years ago and makes no attempt to reach out to the Migrant Fleet during his time beyond the veil unless Shepard drags him out there. According to his gaming stats (LotSB), he still kills Quarians for fun. Returned to the veil, severed communication again and was found on the dreadnought in a Reaper egg.

And around and around we go...

[Jukaga]

Because they are considered alive, at least at that point... Probably from the point where the Quarians decided to kill them at the start of the Morning War.
If the Geth were truly locked in a genocidal war, then they would have persued the Quarians. The Geth arn't locked, they couldn't care less(as long as the Quarians don't get close enough to be able to hurt them), the Quarians are.

 

Exactly, the Quarians at least perceive they are and clearly don't accept the Geth as living beings. There is no dialog that makes me think they do. Then all of the sudden, what should have been perceived as no more than a lapse in judgment and security (Rael's experiments) becomes this terrible moral crime right out of left field. Xen, an Admiral had no moral qualms with the content of the experiments just the lapse in judgment that led to the platforms on the Alerai getting independent and armed. She openly talks on continuing the experiments. How can that be so if it's some great crime?

[Jorji Costava]

Exactly, the Quarians at least perceive they are and clearly don't accept the Geth as living beings. There is no dialog that makes me think they do. Then all of the sudden, what should have been perceived as no more than a lapse in judgment and security (Rael's experiments) becomes this terrible moral crime right out of left field. Xen, an Admiral had no moral qualms with the content of the experiments just the lapse in judgment that led to the platforms on the Alerai getting independent and armed. She openly talks on continuing the experiments. How can that be so if it's some great crime?

 

Realistically, I also doubt that the Quarians would perceive Rael's experiments as some horrible deed. But it's written the way it is to increase the emotional stakes for Tali. If the outcome was, "It turns out that Rael'Zorah was doing some experiments on Geth that aren't that big of a deal, I guess. Case closed!", that would have been a bit of an anti-climax. There also wouldn't be any pretext whereby we can once again put Tali in a position where she needs Shepard's protection, which is essentially what I think the entire mission is about.

[I Tsunayoshi I]

Realistically, I also doubt that the Quarians would perceive Rael's experiments as some horrible deed. But it's written the way it is to increase the emotional stakes for Tali. If the outcome was, "It turns out that Rael'Zorah was doing some experiments on Geth that aren't that big of a deal, I guess. Case closed!", that would have been a bit of an anti-climax. There also wouldn't be any pretext whereby we can once again put Tali in a position where she needs Shepard's protection, which is essentially what I think the entire mission is about.

 

The experiments wouldnt be what they would be upset over. It would be his total lack of ****s towards safety protocols that would have had him branded a traitor. He pretty much got every last person on the ship killed including himself.

[DeinonSlayer]

Realistically, I also doubt that the Quarians would perceive Rael's experiments as some horrible deed. But it's written the way it is to increase the emotional stakes for Tali. If the outcome was, "It turns out that Rael'Zorah was doing some experiments on Geth that aren't that big of a deal, I guess. Case closed!", that would have been a bit of an anti-climax. There also wouldn't be any pretext whereby we can once again put Tali in a position where she needs Shepard's protection, which is essentially what I think the entire mission is about.

Judging by the dialogue options available, and the paragon option to retain both Tali and Legion's loyalty (plus things like Koris' bleeding-heart reference to the Geth on the Alarei as "living beings in pain"), I think we were supposed to view Rael's hacking attempts as some kind of heinous crime, but it falls on its face (hmm... how many mercenaries did I set on fire in the last mission alone?). Sort of like how in ME1 our only options when told about the history of the Geth were to either make excuses for the Geth or thumb our noses at the present-day Quarians' situation. Credit where it's due: they didn't railroad us quite that bad in 2 or 3.

The experiments wouldnt be what they would be upset over. It would be his total lack of ****s towards safety protocols that would have had him branded a traitor. He pretty much got every last person on the ship killed including himself.

They never really explained his urgency. The only theories I can come up with were that Haestrom's sun would light up, isolating Rannoch from the rest of the galaxy before long, or trying to retake Rannoch before the Reapers turned up so they'd be ready to join the wider fight as soon as they were needed.

[wolfhowwl]

The experiments wouldnt be what they would be upset over. It would be his total lack of ****s towards safety protocols that would have had him branded a traitor. He pretty much got every last person on the ship killed including himself.

Apparently that kind of idiocy is only acceptable in Cerberus where it's just another day on the job.

[jtav]

As best I can piece together, quarian conception of guilt depends on harm done. If something you did hurts the fleet badly enough, you get slapped with a treason charge, even without a mens rea.

[Jorji Costava]

As best I can piece together, quarian conception of guilt depends on harm done. If something you did hurts the fleet badly enough, you get slapped with a treason charge, even without a mens rea.

 

That's the best guess I've heard. I know it would have been obviously impractical to slap a 600 page book on Quarian law in front of Shepard, but it would have helped if we had been filled in on at least some of the very basics of what constitutes treason for Quarians. When I first heard that the charge against Tali was that she smuggled active Geth parts to the flotilla, I was completely confused. To me, that sounds more like handling dangerous materials than treason.

 

I think it would have been particularly interesting if the Quarian concept of treason was explicitly set out to be something that sounded very odd or counter-intuitive to Westerners, but is understandable as something that would have evolved in response to the Quarians' unique circumstances (although don't ask me to sketch this out in any detail, because I have no idea how). That would have been an interesting opportunity to engage with the whole idea of cultural difference and added to the sense that the Quarians aren't just humans with masks on.

[Aimi]

I think it would have been particularly interesting if the Quarian concept of treason was explicitly set out to be something that sounded very odd or counter-intuitive to Westerners, but is understandable as something that would have evolved in response to the Quarians' unique circumstances (although don't ask me to sketch this out in any detail, because I have no idea how). That would have been an interesting opportunity to engage with the whole idea of cultural difference and added to the sense that the Quarians aren't just humans with masks on.

Yes.

They sort of did something like this, but it was easy to miss and didn't really get everything across. In a shipboard conversation with Tali after Haestrom but before the trial, Shep can ask her about the Admiralty and the sorts of stuff that they do. Tali references treason, Shepard can pursue the line of questioning further, and Tali elaborates on the quarians' emphasis on outcomes rather than intentions by relating the story of Anora'Vanya vas Selani and the batarian raiders. She also states that in the event of a Heroic Sacrifice, treason charges can be dismissed to keep the record clean, which leads into the trial sequence and the Alarei.

But the whole notion of what drove the trial deliberation was still kinda murky even with that clarification. They tried to sidestep that with Shala'Raan's comment about "no legal tricks or loopholes", but that still didn't mean that Shepard knew what treason even meant to the quarians, let alone what sort of arguments would be convincing.

[DeinonSlayer]

Yes.They sort of did something like this, but it was easy to miss and didn't really get everything across. In a shipboard conversation with Tali after Haestrom but before the trial, Shep can ask her about the Admiralty and the sorts of stuff that they do. Tali references treason, Shepard can pursue the line of questioning further, and Tali elaborates on the quarians' emphasis on outcomes rather than intentions by relating the story of Anora'Vanya vas Selani and the batarian raiders. She also states that in the event of a Heroic Sacrifice, treason charges can be dismissed to keep the record clean, which leads into the trial sequence and the Alarei.But the whole notion of what drove the trial deliberation was still kinda murky even with that clarification. They tried to sidestep that with Shala'Raan's comment about "no legal tricks or loopholes", but that still didn't mean that Shepard knew what treason even meant to the quarians, let alone what sort of arguments would be convincing.

As I recall, Koris says something to the effect that "Tali's loyalty was never in question - only her judgement."

Seems they care more about results than intentions. In that case, they probably do hold their ancestors accountable for what happened to them, even if they didn't know what they were dealing with. Gerrel says in ME3 that their predecessors "gave the Geth too much time to mobilize."

Sorry, seems my phone strips out paragraph breaks when quoting posts...

[78stonewobble]

@deinonslayer: A very good post and there is certainly merit to alot of the critique. 

 

For me, personally, the biggest meh overall is the continuity from me2. The rest, I can thankfully ignore. 

[78stonewobble]

 I don't agree that the Geth are a people. They aren't. Their just machines.

 

My main issue is why do I have to have Tali and Legion to get peace between both groups? When I cured/sabotage the genophage I didn't need any specific character. It was a yes or no decision.

 

Psht... Humans are machines too. Self replicating and preprogrammed pests. I'd bet 98 percent of what we do is natures programming and not original thought. Atleast the geth exceeded their programming, whereas some humans are wholly oblivious to their true nature and that they have a programming. 

 

If the situation were reversed and based on the quoted post... Legion definately should have picked destroy. 

[themikefest]

Psht... Humans are machines too. Self replicating and preprogrammed pests. I'd bet 98 percent of what we do is natures programming and not original thought. Atleast the geth exceeded their programming, whereas some humans are wholly oblivious to their true nature and that they have a programming. 

 

If the situation were reversed and based on the quoted post... Legion definately should have picked destroy. 

Humans are machines? Sure. Whatever. I'll just go down to the nearest Jiffy Lube store and get my oil changed. Get my joints greased and add some air to my lungs.

[Dean_the_Young]

Why don't you upgrade your software to be awesome at videogames while you're at it?

[Dean_the_Young]

With Koris and Gerrel, I didn't see much in the way of complexity. Mostly, I saw an extension of ME's pervasive "Men of action are competent and awesome; diplomats and politicians are inept and untrustworthy" trope.

 

I've noticed that too. I once wrote a satiricle/mocking thread about how the ME series was a love letter for millitarism/fascism. The whole 'politicians and bureaucrats are holding us back, soldiers are awesome!' always struck me as silly. The forced antagonism, and lack of vindication for pretty much anyone Shepard opposes, was always eye-roll worthy for me.

 

If I were ever to try and write a deconstruction of Shepard and that trope, it would probably be a storyline in which the well-meaning man of action with an unlimited mandate progressively screws things over so much that the unlimited mandate itself is abolished. Sort of like if Spectres screwed up publicly enough that their legal unaccountability got reigned in.

[78stonewobble]

Humans are machines? Sure. Whatever. I'll just go down to the nearest Jiffy Lube store and get my oil changed. Get my joints greased and add some air to my lungs.

 

Sure... You are designed to: Eat, sleep and reproduce

 

If you can stop those permanently via a conscious decision, and thus overcome your basic design and programming. You'll have proven me wrong.

 

PS: Obviously not by maker "designed" ... shaped by nature is better, but longer. 

[Jorji Costava]

If I were ever to try and write a deconstruction of Shepard and that trope, it would probably be a storyline in which the well-meaning man of action with an unlimited mandate progressively screws things over so much that the unlimited mandate itself is abolished. Sort of like if Spectres screwed up publicly enough that their legal unaccountability got reigned in.

 

It sound like a good idea, similar to Watchmen, I suppose. I would say that it's probably more suited to a somewhat smaller-scale story rather than something like the war against the Reapers. In some ways, the all-out war of extinction is not an innocent scenario; it gives the hard core militarists the best chance to make their case, in the same way that the ticking time bomb scenario gives advocates of torture the best chance to make theirs.

 

Humans are machines? Sure. Whatever. I'll just go down to the nearest Jiffy Lube store and get my oil changed. Get my joints greased and add some air to my lungs.

 

I'm a bit confused as to how this argument is supposed to work. One may as well say: "I just got a kidney transplant and a blood transfusion. Obviously that means I'm not a real person. QED." There's nothing sacred about the mere fact of flesh and blood; if there were, then brushing your teeth in the morning would make you a mass murderer, as you're killing cells when you do so. What makes organics 'special' (for lack of a better term), if anything, is the ability of organic processes to give rise to things like consciousness, reasoning, the ability to be helped or harmed from one's own internal point of view on the world, etc. And if such things can be realized by synthetic or mechanical beings, then I see no reason to deny that such beings would be just as 'special' as us.

[themikefest]

 

I'm a bit confused as to how this argument is supposed to work. One may as well say: "I just got a kidney transplant and a blood transfusion. Obviously that means I'm not a real person. QED." There's nothing sacred about the mere fact of flesh and blood; if there were, then brushing your teeth in the morning would make you a mass murderer, as you're killing cells when you do so. What makes organics 'special' (for lack of a better term), if anything, is the ability of organic processes to give rise to things like consciousness, reasoning, the ability to be helped or harmed from one's own internal point of view on the world, etc. And if such things can be realized by synthetic or mechanical beings, then I see no reason to deny that such beings would be just as 'special' as us.

What is it you're confused about?

[Jorji Costava]

What is it you're confused about?

 

Well, I'm going to be straightforward here, and I sincerely hope that it doesn't come across as flippant or mean-spirited. Often, when I say I'm confused about an argument, it's just a more diplomatic of way of saying that I don't think the argument is any good. You're apparently suggesting that synthetics are different from us in a crucial respect, which is that they are made of machine parts 'n' stuff, where as we're made of flesh 'n' stuff. What I tried to point out in my response is that this difference isn't morally relevant to anything provided that synthetics are just as capable of being conscious as we are. And the in-game evidence overwhelmingly suggests that they are.

[shodiswe]

I think they were trying to depict Raels experiments on prisoners as this;

http://en.wikipedia....experimentation

In a story about the Collectors doing the same to humans. The Collectors were experimentign with human bodyparts and slugifying humans and mess with their minds and play around with indoctrination.

Wether or not the story fails/suceeds at telling this story and reference is up to each one of us. It's always been the case that some people don't want to make certain connections due to beliefs or preference. This is why the writers added that dialogue to Tali, because it was the way the writers had intended it.

Admiral Xen also expressed such desires regarding Legion in ME2 and 3. I'm trying to think of one bad thing that the Quarians havn't done but I can't think of anything. That's the way the writers wrote them.
Sure, they fell on hard times, bad economy, they feelt it was unfair, and wanted to recover their greatness and pride. That's the normal story and not the first time we hear such things.
Claiming that they got a cultural necessity to do what they do, we've heard that before aswell.

[DeinonSlayer]

I'm trying to think of one bad thing that the Quarians havn't done but I can't think of anything.

Can't say I'm surprised, Shodiswe, when your headcanon encompasses things like Veetor disabling the defenses of human colonies to enable the Collectors to abduct them without resistance in exchange for Reaper tech to fight the Geth. You're quickly reaching Auld Wulf levels of hilarity.

Also Godwin, but that's par for the course in your posts.