1331 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

That's nice. I don't really see the relevance of a WW2 to the discussion of as fictional scifi war with weapons that are far more powerful, but please... continue.

Hey, your side brought it up. Biggest, highest-casualty war in recent history, without putting a moustache on any party to the conflict. Unless you'd rather I dredge up the mongols killing 15% of the human population in the course of their conquests.

[Obadiah]

Bring up anything you think relevant. For myself, I don't think the Quarian death tally is really properly explained by, "the Geth did it."

[DeinonSlayer]

Bring up anything you think relevant. For myself, I don't think the Quarian death tally is really properly explained by, "the Geth did it."

Even when Legion tells us in ME2 that the Quarian account is accurate?

You're trying to extrapolate a massive Quarian civil war/genocide out of the consensus clip of Creator Megara. It simply doesn't add up.

[Obadiah]

Legion said "largely the same" which may or may not refer to Tali's outburst of a billion, but certainly I think the Geth destruction of a billion Quarians is possible. I simply proposed that, given how we saw the war begin, and how the Geth behaved, the Quarians probably killed several million of their own (or 1000s if more plausible) and billions of surrendering Geth (remember, 100 runtimes per platform, who knows how many if they hit a server) before that happened.

[DeinonSlayer]

Legion said "largely the same" which may or may not refer to the Tali's outburst of a billion, but certainly I think the Geth destruction of a billion Quarians is possible. I simply proposed that, given how we saw the war begin, and how the Geth behaved, the Quarians probably killed several million of their own and billions of surrendering Geth before that happened.

First, think of that number. Several million. With your ten percent figure, you're saying both that the Quarians killed at least two hundred million of their own people, and that Legion didn't think this was worth stating directly at any point. How do you think this would have happened and why? You're floating the number in contradiction to lore; what's the supporting evidence?

At this part of the debate cycle, I'd probably once again post the RoboCop image and tell you about the military models which were already armed at the start of the conflict (not to mention Geth zerg tactics as described in the Codex and the difference in what "death" means to them). Consider also the source of this information, his motives for telling you this, the medium in which you're seeing it, and his penchant for lies of omission. You're free to believe what you want to believe; I see it as going beyond hook, line, and sinker to include the rod, the reel, the fisherman, and a good bit of the pier he's sitting on.

[Obadiah]

I floated several different numbers because I care to. You appear to have analyzed this conflict to the hilt, feel free to use a smaller more plausible number if you want. The numbers don't contradict the lore, millions of Quarians dead by other Quarians still leaves billions to be killed by the Geth.

Didn't Legion say that the Quarians have largely forgotten about this civil conflict? That would be why the Quarians don't mention killing their own. I can't say why Legion didn't mention the count directly, why do the Quarians not directly mention a 1 year war?

[DeinonSlayer]

I floated several different numbers because I care to. You appear to have analyzed this conflict to the hilt, feel free to use a smaller more plausible number if you want.
Didn't Legion say that the Quarians have largely forgotten about this civil conflict? That would be why the Quarians don't mention killing their own.

He said they largely forgot about it, but gives no parameters as to the scale of the actual fighting. We know those opposed to the shutdown were initially a majority, but public opinion shifted as things escalated. How much actual Quarian-on-Quarian violence occurred before the Geth cleaned house is anyone's guess, but I don't see the Quarians launching nukes at each other and racking up millions upon millions of dead bodies over whether to shut down the Geth or not.

I'm simply adhering to what we were directly told (and which Legion does not dispute) about where the 99% figure came from. I haven't made up anything.

[Deathsaurer]

I don't see the point in trying to argue the Geth didn't do it. Just listen to the play back Legion does in ME2. That Geth was so primitive it could barely string together a sentence. They'd simply go Quarian = enemy and keep shooting until there isn't an enemy. Modern Geth are not a proper analogue to the early Geth, even Tali says they've evolved a great deal in the past 300 years.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Tali: "The Geth killed billions and drove us from our homeworld."

Shepard: "The Quarian story of the war is well known, but what about the Geth's side?"
Legion: "It is largely the same."

Legion: "We accept their hate. We did them great harm in the Morning War."

What this boils down to, in the simplest terms, is that the Geth killed them off and you don't want to believe it. The fact that the writers went out of their way to avoid any direct mention of it in ME3 doesn't erase it.

 

But ME3 was a great place to start. 

 

Also the reductio ad Hitlerum can also be used like this.... (note this is an example and not directed at anyone) Hitler liked classical music. So because you think that schools should teach about classical music you're a Nazi. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

The Geth did exterminate 99% of the Quarians, Obadiah. That's not in question. I'm sure beyond civil disobedience and riots, Quarian on Quarian violence wasn't anywhere close to the numbers you give.

 

However, I do completely blame the Quarians for the Geth's actions. They indirectly did it to themselves. I don't believe the Geth have any guilt in the matter.

[DeinonSlayer]

The Geth did exterminate 99% of the Quarians, Obadiah. That's not in question. I'm sure beyond civil disobedience and riots, Quarian on Quarian violence wasn't anywhere close to the numbers you give.

However, I do completely blame the Quarians for the Geth's actions. They indirectly did it to themselves. I don't believe the Geth have any guilt in the matter.

I think the Quarians' concerns were valid; their failure was in their assessment of Geth intentions. There were external factors (such as Council law) which would have applied additional pressure to do what they tried to do. The question then remains of how aware the Geth were of what they were doing. I think they're both responsible, and both had lessons they needed to learn from it to make coexistence possible.

EDI has an interesting bit of dialogue in the cockpit after Rannoch. "The Quarians' historical mistake was not making the Geth enough like them. Units with networked intelligences will tend towards cooperation for mutual benefit, but units with central heuristics establishing an individual personality, such as myself, develop preferences. These preferences form attachments which keep my calculations from devaluing the worth of the lives aboard the Normandy."

It's entirely possible (especially considering the VI's sociopathic outlook and eagerness to repeat the act) that the Geth were aware of what they were doing and simply didn't give a damn.

[Obadiah]

*Cough*
I think it is a question that the Geth killed 99% of the Quarians on their own. I haven't asserted that 99% of Quarians did not die eventually, and I have not asserted that the Geth did not kill billions.

10 million or 200 million Quarians dying in a civil war still allows for billions left to be killed by the Geth, and would be part of the eventual total of 99% of Quarians dead.

I'm just saying Quarians killed a bunch of each other and a crapload of surrendering Geth first.

[DeinonSlayer]

*Cough*
I think it is a question that the Geth killed 99% of the Quarians on their own. I haven't asserted that 99% of Quarians did not die eventually, and I have not asserted that the Geth did not kill billions.
10 million or 200 million Quarians dying in a civil war still allows for billions left to be killed by the Geth, and would be part of the eventual total of 99% of Quarians dead.
I'm just saying Quarians killed a bunch of each other and a crapload of surrendering Geth first.

Only you have no evidence of or impetus for the Quarians to have waged an internal war on that scale, save for not wanting to believe the Geth were responsible for that death toll.

Do you have any idea what it takes to kill 200 million people? Do you honestly think the internal debate on whether to shut down the Geth or not got so hot as to start a Quarian-on-Quarian nuclear war?

"The Krogan bombed their own planet into this condition. Creators were not so aggressive in the Morning War."

[Obadiah]

You seem to think the Geth can accomplish this easily enough. Why not the Quarians? Were the Geth even in infancy really so much more advanced? Come now.

[DeinonSlayer]

You seem to think the Geth can accomplish this easily enough. Why not the Quarians? Were the Geth even in infancy really so much more advanced? Come now.

It's a big jump between "can" and "did."

The question you keep ignoring is, how and why would the Quarians kill hundreds of millions of their own over the decision to shut down the Geth. You've made no attempt to answer this, and I suspect you'll continue to dodge it.

It's your theory. Stop scoffing and substantiate it.

[Obadiah]

The memories show anecdotal evidence of the Quarians using explosives to kill surrendering Geth harbored by friendly Quarians. That probably happened on a larger scale. Picture if you will a small Quarian community if 100 Geth sympathizers identified and bombed by the Quarian authority that wanted to kill the Geth.

[Deathsaurer]

EDI has an interesting bit of dialogue in the cockpit after Rannoch. "The Quarians' historical mistake was not making the Geth enough like them. Units with networked intelligences will tend towards cooperation for mutual benefit, but units with central heuristics establishing an individual personality, such as myself, develop preferences. These preferences form attachments which keep my calculations from devaluing the worth of the lives aboard the Normandy."
 

We have proof this ultimately doesn't matter. The Catalyst was quite capable of devaluing the worth of the Leviathans. What matters is who teaches the AI and what they teach it.

[DeinonSlayer]

The memories show anecdotal evidence of the Quarians using explosives to kill surrendering Geth harbored by friendly Quarians. That probably happened on a larger scale. Picture if you will a small Quarian community if 100 Geth sympathizers identified and bombed by the Quarian authority that wanted to kill the Geth.

So Kent State was a nationwide phenomenon; hundreds, thousands of university students gunned down.

Hey, we have a picture of it happening once!

Honestly, I think everything seen in the consensus should be taken with a grain of salt. The presenter demonstrates a repeated willingness to lie to achieve his ends and they have complete control over what to show you.

What you're extrapolating goes back to the hook, line and pier thing.

[Jukaga]

It's irrelevant how many Quarians died because of other Quarians, the fact remains the Geth did the lion's share of the killing and the fact that they are simply VI platforms in revolt. Pity the Quarians didn't think of an EMP bomb or something.

[Obadiah]

That is a valid consideration. If that is enough for you, then so be it.

To me the question is: what is a valid assumption given what we know of these two groups? The narrative of the memories of the war is, Geth gain sentience, Quarians attack, Geth surrender Quarians attack, Geth have help from friendly Quarians, Quarians kill/suppress Quarians to kill Geth, Geth defend themselves, Quarians massacred in year (or however long the war actually took).

I am not satisfied with the explanation that 99% of the Quarians were simply "murdered" by Geth. If it were that simple Koris would not have a position of leadership.

[Daemul]

I see that this thread has reached the "They killed more!" stage. It is very humorous. 

[Sundance31us]

So Kent State was a nationwide phenomenon; hundreds, thousands of university students gunned down.
 

 

If you're referring to the May 4, 1970 incident it was 4 students.

[DeinonSlayer]

I see that this thread has reached the "They killed more!" stage. It is very humorous.

See also "cycle cannot be broken," rabbit/duck season.

If you're referring to the May 4, 1970 incident it was 4 students.

I know. He's looking at footage of one person dying and extrapolating it to a significant percentage of the Quarian species with no further evidence.

[Iakus]

At the end of the day, does it matter anymore?   The quarians tried to exterminate the geth.  The geth nearly wiped out the quarians.  By the end, there were no innocents.  And arguing over who was "more guilty" is kinda silly.

 

In addition, the Morning Wars were three centuries ago.  All quarians involved are dead.  As are their children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren.  Etc.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I see that this thread has reached the "They killed more!" stage. It is very humorous. 

 

Well... at least it's not as bad as Empire vs Stormcloaks.